Need advice for learning to fly

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atlantis737

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atlantis737
Hi guys,

I'm looking for some advice on this plan I have for myself:

I am part of the Civil Air Patrol, and so I intend to do my initial flight training through them. I will go through and get my Private Pilot's License, which I can do at a deeply discounted rate.

I have worked a part-time job for the past three years in order to save up for a plane. One of the pilots in the local EAA Chapter has been trying to sell his Lake C-2 Skimmer IV for a while, and he's willing to give it to me for what I've saved up, which is a decent price based on the research I've done. I know that Lakes have a bad reputation, I know they have a lot of oopsies (although I haven't been able to find what exactly causes them to have so many oopsies) but I have always dreamed of owning one.

Once I have my PPL, would it be safe (and smart) for me to begin my seaplane, complex, and IFR training in the Skimmer?

I know insurance will be high at first but I'm not paying rent/bills/car insurance/loans or any kind of tuition right now, so it won't be a huge problem. I'm 16 (soon to be 17) and all of my focus is on learning to fly.
 
The first rule in airplane buying is "What's your mission?"

For someone like you, if you are looking at anything beyond a Cessna 150/152/172 or a Cherokee, we need to talk.

Most importantly, have you done the homework on what the operating costs are? Keeping the airplane flying can be just as financially draining as buying the thing.
 
You don't have costs for rent, tuition, etc. now, but it's likely you will in a year or two. Will you have the cash flow to support all of that?
 
Let me begin by congratulating you on having saved up a good sum of money for flying. My advice: take that money and put it solely into flight training. Like you I've always wanted to own my own aircraft (I'm 18 and a PP-ASEL by the way, and I also work a part-time job in order to fly.) and at our ages it makes no sense to get into a single person aircraft ownership situation. Even if you were able to purchase one, the price of fuel, oil, hanger rent, and insurance would eat your finances alive. The much more logical choice is to take your money and use it for the ratings you want to obtain. I'm guessing what you have saved could take you quite far in that pursuit. Start by getting your Private, and decide where you want to go from there. If you still want to own an aircraft, research clubs or partnerships in your area. You could still own part of an aircraft, and actually be able to afford the expense. If you have any questions or want some help just shoot me a message.
 
Jon63F said:
Let me begin by congratulating you on having saved up a good sum of money for flying. My advice: take that money and put it solely into flight training. Like you I've always wanted to own my own aircraft (I'm 18 and a PP-ASEL by the way, and I also work a part-time job in order to fly.) and at our ages it makes no sense to get into a single person aircraft ownership situation. Even if you were able to purchase one, the price of fuel, oil, hanger rent, and insurance would eat your finances alive. The much more logical choice is to take your money and use it for the ratings you want to obtain. I'm guessing what you have saved could take you quite far in that pursuit. Start by getting your Private, and decide where you want to go from there. If you still want to own an aircraft, research clubs or partnerships in your area. You could still own part of an aircraft, and actually be able to afford the expense. If you have any questions or want some help just shoot me a message.
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Very well stated. :yeahthat:
 
Well, to answer a few of those -

I've earned a full ride to a good college through a few scholarships, provided I keep my GPA above a 3.0 through the rest of High School as well as college. My parents promised that as long as I kept the scholarships, they would pay for my room and board. I may have to break down and get a car at some point but the university is in Arizona so I should be okay with a motorcycle. In short, I've done a good amount of thinking and I don't foresee any costs over $2000 outside of flying - and those would be "wants", not needs.

I have called insurance companies about quotes on insurance for the Lake, I have checked on maintenance costs for the Lycoming 180 hp, as well as general maintenance for the Lake. It won't be completely my own aircraft, my dad is slowly learning to fly as well (I gave him the bug) and so we've agreed that he'll do 1/2 ownership. It'll stay home while I'm at college, but I'll be home Thanksgiving, Christmas, Spring Break and Summer so I'll be able to do plenty of flying then. Rent for a hangar at the local airport will be $175/month.

Getting my license through CAP will be $1500 to $2000, and the Lake's owner is asking $35,000. I've saved up just over $45,000 and I still have another year and a half left of work so I should be well up to $60,000 at that point, and aside from small incidentals I won't have many expenses to worry about. Learning to fly and owning an amphibian has been a dream of mine since I was 12, so I've made sure that I will be financially able to accomplish it - and I've been fortunate enough to have the opportunities to do so.

I don't mean to try and shoot you down - all of your advice is sound, but most of what you've said has centered around money, and I've been blessed with that not being an issue. My concern is technique and avoiding things that will make me a worse pilot, rather than a better one.
 
I don't think buying the skimmer is completely bad exactly but I think you should consider what you're up against. Owning an airplane is a big deal and a commitment in many ways. Money is of course a huge one and $45k isn't getting you anywhere. Buying the plane is the cheapest part so before you said your dad was considering it, I woulda said NO. Other things; are you going to keep it there or move it with you. Either way one of you, either you or your dad wont get to fly it. Will you have time for it while you're in college or is it going to sit and pickle? I think getting your private pilot cert and getting into college should be your primary concern but as long as cost allows it, I don't see anything wrong with owning a plane at the same time. What I would at least do is talk to someone that is in the business of selling airplanes before you jump in to something you're unfamiliar with. If you can't find anyone on here and you're seriously considering this venture, my former boss is really good at this stuff and can give you some good advice or at least things to think about if you're interested. He's honest and deals with a lot of brand new owners and although he specializes in cessnas, he's done the unusual ones too and knows how the game of buying and owning works. Let me know if you'd like his contact info.
 
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you have $45K saved up? that's awesome. If your dad really wants to do it and is willing to partner with you, I'd say maybe. Before I read that, I was going to tell you NO NO NO. Personally, I would get my PPL and rent for a while. You have enough to comfortably do that and find out what you want out of a plane. Unless you fly an awful lot, I don't see you coming out worse by renting. I have a mooney that is hangared, has garmin 430 updates and IFR certification to maintain. If I were renting, I wouldn't have to pay for all those directly. When I first started flying, I was willing to partner with someone who had a cherokee 140. I was fortunate enough to fly a 180 for a while, but I soon realized I wanted something different. By the time I became instrument rated, I learned more about what I needed a plane to do. I am very glad that I waited to buy the plane I have now.

Some people get lucky, but a lot of people lose money jumping from one plane to the next. As you said, money is a big factor with flying, but it's not the only thing. I'm glad you are financially set, but I'd hate to see you disappointed with a premature and possibly naive purchase.
 
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You are going to get two sets of advice...first, it that the right plane for your mission? That is the most critical. Once you get your PPL and start learning the the type of flying you will ultimately do...is a floating slug the right plane when you really want and need something that is faster and has more capacity and range...or do you just need a 152 for $100 hamburger runs with your buddy? Or is landing at the lake to one up your friends with the boats part of the dream?:) I can tell you the type of flying that I thought I would mostly be doing and what I actually do now are totally different, but I got a plane that fit the bill right down the middle and I am happy so far.

Second is it a good financial decision for you in your situation? Initially I was no way no how...but it comes down to numbers. If you got the funds...go for the dream, you are young enough to learn if it does become a mistake. I wish I waited longer to pursue a goal and a dream said no one ever!...but it does come down to numbers. Biggest question above fully understanding the operation and maintenance costs is what happens if you suddenly have to drop $30K in a new engine next year. Make sure you have a plan. Talk to your "partner".

...and on your flight training if you are planning on using the Lake for PPL training, you are forgetting one major expense. You have the plane, you can get training for $2k-ish...fuel...figure in your GPH x 50+ hours for that plane if you decide to go for it.
 
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atlantis737 said:
I may have to break down and get a car at some point but the university is in Arizona so I should be okay with a motorcycle.
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Two words -- "Monsoon Season." That's when you'll be glad you have an amphib! ;)

Getting my license through CAP will be $1500 to $2000, and the Lake's owner is asking $35,000. I've saved up just over $45,000 and I still have another year and a half left of work so I should be well up to $60,000 at that point, and aside from small incidentals I won't have many expenses to worry about. Learning to fly and owning an amphibian has been a dream of mine since I was 12, so I've made sure that I will be financially able to accomplish it - and I've been fortunate enough to have the opportunities to do so.
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I would NOT REPEAT NOT pick the Lake as a first plane, and it's definitely not what your dad wants to learn to fly.

At your age, with that kind of money available, I would buy a 150, 172 or Cherokee AND I would buy that $15,000 Seabee basket case that's in Utah and restore it.

You and your dad can learn to fly in the land plane, and take your time restoring the Seabee (which looks like it's in good shape), then probably get your money back out of the land plane. The Seabee is a better plane, far more comfortable to fly -- especially off water -- and it was built by the same guys who had just finished building the P-47. The Skimmer was built by a handful of guys in a small start-up company. If I had the wherewithall I would be haggling with the owner myself.
 
For those of you who don't know -

With CAP's program, I will have to pay only for fuel and some maintenance on their C172's, so the total training will be about $1500. After that, I'll have about 80ish hours in a C172, and that's when I plan to transition to the Lake for Complex, Seaplane, and IFR training. My dad is also in CAP so he will be going through the same program, and probably follow the same structure as me. So neither of us will be using the Lake for primary flight training.

Like I said, the airplane will stay at home, but I'll be home for about 1/2 of the year once I'm in college, so that's not a big deal to me. I have strongly considered settling for just a 172 or a Cherokee, however the amphibious nature of the Lake is... alluring, especially considering the good price. Thanks for the note about the Seabee - I'll look into it :)

I appreciate all of the input here. I welcome more opinions, you guys are all so knowledgeable :)
 
Are you a cadet in CAP? Primary training isn't allowed for seniors. Check out this free download. It will answer just about any question you have regarding flight training.
www.FreeFlyBook.com

Welcome!
 
Up on the table! Arms out, fingers together, knees bent, now, head well forward. Now, flap your arms. Go on, flap, faster... faster... faster... faster, faster, faster, faster - now jump!
 
A little advice from an old man and newbie.
I got my ppl just over a year ago and instrument rating just last month so I have been through the honeymoon period (or still in it).

When I first started I learned in cessnas and was convinced I should get a 182 for my first plane. Then put some hours in piper arrows and archers and felt the difference between the old Hersey bar wing and new tapered wing....Then I found some Grumman tigers and cheetahs to rent and have since put about 100 hours on them and got used the agility and sporty feel. So now when I go back and fly a cessna 182 or 210 it feels like a school bus in comparison (but has great utility) . So now I have a whole laundry list of planes I want to fly before I buy cause my skills and missions are more defined by how I use it
IE: cross country for business (500+mi)
Short date night trips for $100 hamburgers (means runways less than 3000ft)
Camping gear and bikes for island day trips.

So my recommendation is not to buy a plane before really getting to know what is out there and what you are going to do with it cause it will change at a very rapid pace .

Now from a dad perspective (who has HELPED 2 kids through college) keep the money in your account and rent because life changes at this stage and you need the freedom and funds to change with it. Also believe people when they say the cheapest part of plane ownership is purchasing it.....be prepared to spend the extra $8000 on the annual or $25k for a new motor (especially on the lake from what I understand). So if you don't have the income to absorb these surprises then who will (hopefully dad but that may not be fair to him). Let some one else worry about maintenance and expenses so you can focus on school and still get all the experience flying...plus the confidence of having $30k in the bank is greater than having a plane in the hangar requiring financial attention.


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atlantis737 said:
I am a Cadet - that's a shame, we haven't heard that before. Thank you.
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As a cadet, you'd qualify for primary training. That assumes there's an IP in your area who has the time to take you all the way through. Ask your Deputy Commander. Your dad, as a senior, can get training in the CAP airplanes, but only if he is already a certificated pilot.
 
Welcome to PoA. Go for your dream! You have the rest of your life ahead of you for compromising with reality. There is absolutely no reason to worry about beginning your seaplane, complex, and IFR training in the Skimmer if you will have enough time to complete them before you go off to college.

That said, it is not a practical plane. Having your own plane takes away the problem of renting and substitutes the problems of owning. Do you live near a large body of water?
 
I appreciate the advice for CAP - I've already begun the training process, but I guess we'll have to find another route for my dad.

I did the math, and once I reach 100 hours of flying a Cessna 172 (past finishing my PPL, IFR, Complex and Seaplane) I will be very close (within $2000) of the same price of buying the Skimmer, and after 500 hours, the price of rentals will have well exceeded it (by almost double)
That is taking into account the price of a 172 at the local airport, $200/hr, which is steep for a 172, but that is what I would be renting (should I need to rent). It is also taking into account insurance, a $2000 plug for incidental maintenance, oil, fuel, and the $20/hr calculated cost for the overhaul. I did not take into account the annual inspection. The Skimmer only has 200 hours on it (SMOH) so I feel confident that I wouldn't hit the overhaul for several years.
I live in MN - there are large bodies of water everywhere! Many have seaplane bases, there is a lake about 15 miles up the road that once had a SPB but when the owner passed away, his family chose not to continue managing it, so it's now a marina.

I do like the idea of checking out many different planes before jumping into buying one. I think I will do that before I make a decision. I am, however, most certainly set on purchasing an aircraft before I go too much further past my PPL, because I don't like the idea of putting a lot of money into something and not being able to get it back out - renting a plane is renting, but when you buy, you still have a resale value, even if it is a little lower than when you bought it.
 
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Here's how I look at it, one day you will be 70 years old and you'll be talking to a grandson or someone else and you will be saying something like one of these:

a) When I was 16, I could have bought a Lake... It woulda been really nice...

b) When I was 16, I bought a Lake and learned how to fly in it. That sucker was a pile of bolts and cost me a bushel of money, but I flew whenever I wanted all over the place. Here, let me show you the pictures...again.
 
atlantis737 said:
For those of you who don't know -

With CAP's program, I will have to pay only for fuel and some maintenance on their C172's, so the total training will be about $1500. After that, I'll have about 80ish hours in a C172, and that's when I plan to transition to the Lake for Complex, Seaplane, and IFR training. My dad is also in CAP so he will be going through the same program, and probably follow the same structure as me. So neither of us will be using the Lake for primary flight training.

Like I said, the airplane will stay at home, but I'll be home for about 1/2 of the year once I'm in college, so that's not a big deal to me. I have strongly considered settling for just a 172 or a Cherokee, however the amphibious nature of the Lake is... alluring, especially considering the good price. Thanks for the note about the Seabee - I'll look into it :)

I appreciate all of the input here. I welcome more opinions, you guys are all so knowledgeable :)
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Make sure that with CAP you will have the ability to fly a few times a week so you stay proficient. I know someone who was in CAP and they flew like once every 2 weeks. If you have wide gaps between lessons, it will take more hours and hence more money. Even with CAP , you should expect to spend about $5000 on training. You mentioned that you will only pay for fuel, estimating the C172 consumes 10 gph , with about 70 hours for training, Do the math , it comes to about $3500. Also you mentioned that you will pay for some maintenance, that can run up the cost too, I would really try to get it in writing of how much you would need to pay and for what maintenance. Then come the book costs, checkride costs, etc.. You said you will be in college for 1/2 a year, should still try to fly often to stay proficient. If you can get good, quality training with CAP , go for it. Good luck
 
Hehe, Carpe Diem! I like it :)

I think what I'll do is finish up my PPL, try to rent or get some rides in some different local aircraft (including the Skimmer), and once I'm sure that I like it, I'll close the deal.

I appreciate all of the advice you guys have given me. I think I'll stick around these parts! ;)

My CAP instructor told me that we'll burn 6-7 GPH on our 172, and how I pay for the maintenance is that I pay $14/hr for the plane, and that covers the maintenance that the Air Force won't subsidize. He told me that he regularly puts Cadets through to their PPL in under $2,000, including book costs. I intend to stay with CAP and rent one of their planes on weekends in college, $50/hr won't hit my conscience too hard.
 
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If you really, really want the amphibian, get the Lake.

How often does the current owner splash it into the water? Have you done a ride along to see if it is really what you expect?
 
atlantis737 said:
Hi guys,

I'm looking for some advice on this plan I have for myself:

I am part of the Civil Air Patrol, and so I intend to do my initial flight training through them. I will go through and get my Private Pilot's License, which I can do at a deeply discounted rate.

I have worked a part-time job for the past three years in order to save up for a plane. One of the pilots in the local EAA Chapter has been trying to sell his Lake C-2 Skimmer IV for a while, and he's willing to give it to me for what I've saved up, which is a decent price based on the research I've done. I know that Lakes have a bad reputation, I know they have a lot of oopsies (although I haven't been able to find what exactly causes them to have so many oopsies) but I have always dreamed of owning one.

Once I have my PPL, would it be safe (and smart) for me to begin my seaplane, complex, and IFR training in the Skimmer?

I know insurance will be high at first but I'm not paying rent/bills/car insurance/loans or any kind of tuition right now, so it won't be a huge problem. I'm 16 (soon to be 17) and all of my focus is on learning to fly.
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The Lake Amphibs series are nice planes, you'll enjoy it. There are maintenance issues that are above and beyond what you find in your typical ASEL aircraft, but you will have an advantage later when you get your CFI in being able to provide Commercial SE Land and Seaplane ratings with it.
 
Sorry if I seem focused on money, it's an issue that I'm pretty used to. You seem to have all your bases covered so aircraft ownership could be a possibility. I still believe you need to get your PP certificate before you buy anything. During your training get a ride in the Lake. It could be great fun, or you might find putting around as slow a 172 for an extra two gallons an hour really boring. Whatever you decide to do, go all out and take advantage of the opportunity you have, because most of us don't get that chance. ;)
 
I bought my first airplane while in college and quickly learned how quickly you can get nickel and dime'd to death. Focus on your license and instrument rating. Continue to build your nest egg til you get your education behind you.
 
Atlantis, you are in a fortunate situation and I commend you for being able to save that nest egg. I am currently paying for my sons college and flight instruction.

While it is ultimately your decision and your dad's, I think you are making the right decision per your post #21. Loren is a dad whose son received his license and is a CFII. I would tend to strongly agree with his post.

Good luck in your ultimate quest.
 
Having been there and done that with CAP for primary (as a cadet) let me lend this bit of advice. You need to get a rules interpretation from whichever unit/entity controls the aircraft you are planning to use.

The question you need to ask is how they view training a cadet to PPL (including your check ride with a DPE) and the form 5 process.

Things may have changed since I tried that route beginning in 1990, but lets just say my initial foray after four years as a cadet trying to do what you want to do was very unsuccessful.

After all my 'primary' CFIs got tired of donating their time to fly with me, no one would sign me off to solo without the Form 5 check (essentially a PPL PTS check). I decide after 23 hrs of dual and 78 landings to take my ball and play elsewhere.

Solo'd after my first flight with a Pt 61 CFI.

Things may have changed since Desert Shield/Storm with CAP, but looking back to that time that singular event really turned me away from CAP.

And that's coming from someone who has now spent 17+ years flying for the AF as an officer. I haven't gone back to CAP since my time as a cadet even though I should pay it forward simply because I had such a bad experience with trying to learn to fly through the program.

Yes, I read the newsletters from national that showed others doing what I couldn't. Yes, my wing held a solo encampment every year. No, that didn't change the view of the unit I flew with.

Maybe things have changed, but were I you, I'd look at other options, too.

Also, I don't know where they are coming up with $14/hr. I know that's maintained cost, but who is paying for fuel? Back in '90/'91, I was paying $38/hr wet for a 172N.




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vdehart said:
Rent first, buy later. 45k in training/rental can take you a LONG way.
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Leaving you with nothing but a piece of plastic. With the plane you have plastic and a means of earning income with a CFI ticket as well as getting other people to pay for your 1500hrs towards an ATP.
 
atlantis737 said:
One of the pilots in the local EAA Chapter has been trying to sell his Lake C-2 Skimmer IV for a while,
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It's a Colonial C-2 Skimmer IV by the way - predates Lake Aircraft Corp. Owning an orphan like this can be an issue - many Lake parts will fit, but not all. One example - I just had a discussion with the owner of a Colonial Skimmer yesterday - he has an alternator conversion kit for a Lake, but it doesn't fit because of variations in how the exhaust system is routed.
 
TCABM said:
The question you need to ask is how they view training a cadet to PPL (including your check ride with a DPE) and the form 5 process.
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I have already talked with three instructors from two different units which all have aircraft (mine does not, but there are nearby ones that do). They are more than open to training me and in fact it is something they are already doing with as many Cadets as they can. The Flight Commander at my unit has already soloed with one of them and is moving towards his PPL before he goes to college this coming fall. However, as I understand, I can't take my check ride in a CAP plane because the FAA examiner will likely not be a CAP Senior Member, but that is not a big deal as I am sure I can find a 172 nearby.


TCABM said:
Also, I don't know where they are coming up with $14/hr. I know that's maintained cost, but who is paying for fuel? Back in '90/'91, I was paying $38/hr wet for a 172N.
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CAP will quote me on fuel at 5-6 GPH, and it is $5.21 at the airport where I will probably do my instruction. So, I will be paying about $41/hr. If we burn more than that, the wing will cover it.

I appreciate all of your input. I've talked with my dad and we are still going to stick with the plan that I outlined earlier, in post #21(?). We are both still fairly confident in the Skimmer, however we are open to the idea of other aircraft.

I do intend to get my commercial and CFI rating, and perhaps then I'll be able to recoup the maintenance costs of the aircraft (or at least partially).

However, as I understand, once I "upgrade" to Commercial, I will need to re-train for all of my ratings. Although I'm not so concerned with Seaplane or Complex, as they are just a few hours of instruction, IFR is many many hours. Will IFR upgrade with me, or should I hold off on getting my IFR rating until I upgrade?
 
atlantis737 said:
However, as I understand, once I "upgrade" to Commercial, I will need to re-train for all of my ratings. Although I'm not so concerned with Seaplane or Complex, as they are just a few hours of instruction, IFR is many many hours. Will IFR upgrade with me, or should I hold off on getting my IFR rating until I upgrade?
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There will be instrument tasks on your commercial check ride that will carry it forward with you. Nothing to worry about there.
 
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