Need Advice: First Piper Saratoga Lesson Today!

VWGhiaBob

VWGhiaBob

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VWGhiaBob
Have my first lesson (3 hours) today my my club's beautiful newly painted 1981 fixed gear Saratoga! I'm really excited...first 6 seater!

Any tips and tricks from the Piper crowd?
 
don't land on the nose wheel!

(no need to thank me :-) )

Have fun
 
Get at least one lesson with people in the back seats. Load it up close to gross. It's a whole 'nuther feel when it's full as opposed to when only the front seats are occupied.

Otherwise, it's just a Buick station wagon, a big ol' friendly, sloppy St. Bernard of an airplane. Great traveling machine; I'd have one if I could afford it.
 
Don't take the nose heaviness for granted. Takes a little time to get used to on landing. Trim ,trim,trim. Have fun.
 
Don't be afraid of rolling in some trim in the flare. Be ready to have to use a good push on a go around while you roll it out.

Make sure your checkout includes some experience at full gross.
 
Not to be nosy...but how much does your club charge for the Saratoga?
 
Really be on your target airspeeds and you'll avoid the low wing float. Nice plane to have access to. Good luck and stay outta the clouds ;)
 
Watch W&B, and pay careful attention to recommendations in some PA32s to approach at higher speeds when the CG is forward.

I fly a turbo lance a bunch, and always put ballast in the back when I'm solo.

If you haven't noticed already, it's a brick at idle, so my advice is to fly the final approach with a smooth and gradual power reduction all the way down final so that you're just above idle crossing the threshold and pull to idle simultaneous with that last rotation to landing attitude.
 
I checked out in a Saratoga fixed gear a number of year ago. Some thoughts:

You will enjoy it. It is a docile plane one you get used to it. Not the fastest, not the least expensive, but very forgiving if you get to know her.

First impression: From the parking spot, I had to turn a left 90 degrees to get out of the alley. I thought there was something wrong with the steering, as it took a huge push on the pedal to turn the beast. That engine way out front is heavy!

Second impression: Takeoff run... by the time you get the throttle open, you will be amazed that the acceleration that 300 hp provides (versus the 180 hp PA-28's that I was used to...)

Third impression: pay attention (lots of attention) to speed on final. As others have suggested, make sure your CFI checks you out with a plane at full gross weight. You won't believe the deck angle and the amount of power you must carry to keep the plane in the air. You are really dragging it in. Going now from memory (Haven't flown the PA-32 in years) the short field book landing speed is 79 whereas in most other circumstances you will be closer to 90.

And as Tim has suggested, the PA-32 will beat a brick to the ground at idle power. Don't get surprised by the very high sink rate.

Enjoy. -Skip
 
Pilawt said:
Get at least one lesson with people in the back seats. Load it up close to gross. It's a whole 'nuther feel when it's full as opposed to when only the front seats are occupied.
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Did this in October in the club 182. a "whole 'nuther feel" is an accurate depiction. I learned quite a bit during that days flying. Getting with a CFI and reviewing gross weight performance and then going out to fly loaded up might add some valuable experience to your skill bag (and not create a dependance on your luck bag)
 
What a load of bunk, all that nonsense about testing it out with loads, etc. If you fly the speeds and trim, it doesn't matter how it is loaded as long as it is in the envelope. It's not that difficult folks! Very nice easy plane to fly.
 
BobThePilot said:
What a load of bunk, all that nonsense about testing it out with loads, etc. If you fly the speeds and trim, it doesn't matter how it is loaded as long as it is in the envelope.
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Yeah, right. Whatever you say. :rolleyes:

Very nice easy plane to fly.
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Yes, it certainly is, once you get accustomed to its personality in its various allowable configurations. Particularly for someone like the OP, who has not flown six-seat airplanes before.
 
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Back on the Ground!

LOVED the Saratoga. Easy to fly (of course they are all easy compared to Cirrus). Solid. Powerful. Comfortable. I'm hooked!

 
Have fun and fly it with an instructor, fully loaded. 300 hp worker great, but performance isn't as great fully loaded. Do some go arounds in this condition.
 
What is with all this nonsense about "nose heaviness"??? Use the damn trim as you land. If anyone complains about nose heaviness, they need a swift slap on the side of the head and a quick lesson in properly trimming a plane.
 
GCA319 said:
How does the nose heaviness on a Saratoga compare to something like a 182 or 210?
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Not as "heavy" as those. The PA-32's stabilator provides plenty of pitch authority, but you're aware of a lot of inertia out there. Saratoga's controls are not crisp like a Bonanza's, but they're nicely balanced.

BobThePilot said:
What is with all this nonsense about "nose heaviness"??? Use the damn trim as you land. If anyone complains about nose heaviness, they need a swift slap on the side of the head and a quick lesson in properly trimming a plane.
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>click<
 
Flew a Lance for years. I agree with several comments.
1) Load it up aft CG as it does rotate and land differently with an aft load; the Lance actually feels better with an aft CG so I used to always load back to front. My first flight in the Lance with 6 people resulted in a ****-poor over rotation on the 1st TO :mad:.
2) Try a little flap during takeoff. I used a notch in the Lance and it felt better during the TO rotation.
3) Speed control is important. Learn the numbers and stick with them. Too hot on final and you'll certainly float but you may also wheel barrow if you're not careful.
4) Otherwise, it flies like a big heavy suburban. Great for the mission.
 
Pilawt said:
Not as "heavy" as those. The PA-32's stabilator provides plenty of pitch authority, but you're aware of a lot of inertia out there. Saratoga's controls are not crisp like a Bonanza's, but they're nicely balanced.

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Childish.

"Wah wah wah! I can't hear you! Wah wah wah!"

:rolleyes:
 
BobThePilot said:
What is with all this nonsense about "nose heaviness"??? Use the damn trim as you land. If anyone complains about nose heaviness, they need a swift slap on the side of the head and a quick lesson in properly trimming a plane.
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Learn to fly the airplane and not rely on poor pilot technique (trimming in the flare).
 
Fearless Tower said:
Learn to fly the airplane and not rely on poor pilot technique (trimming in the flare).
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Thanks for typing this. Folks mention trimming in the flare for a Dakota and I always scratch my head wondering what they're on about. Just learn to pull.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Learn to fly the airplane and not rely on poor pilot technique (trimming in the flare).
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I so love comments like these...god, I wish I was so blessed to have flown every aircraft and have a Chuck Yeager like skill set. Seems like anything that others may do qualifies as "poor technique". Personally, I've flown aircraft where a bit of trim during the flare helps keep the nose up when the mains hit. I think that is why they put the trim button on the yoke to make it easier for pilots like me with poor technique to do so. :D
 
Some might disagree, but I'd prefer not to activate electric trim in the flare unless the manual called for it (and I've never flown an airplane in which it did). Several times I've had electric trim switches stick and keep going unexpectedly when I let go. In the flare would be a bad time for that to happen.
 
VWGhiaBob said:
Have my first lesson (3 hours) today my my club's beautiful newly painted 1981 fixed gear Saratoga! I'm really excited...first 6 seater!

Any tips and tricks from the Piper crowd?
Click to expand...

First lesson? Make sure you fly the numbers, learn the (heavy) control feel, and get used to the landing sight picture.
 
Baron2PG said:
I so love comments like these...god, I wish I was so blessed to have flown every aircraft and have a Chuck Yeager like skill set. Seems like anything that others may do qualifies as "poor technique". Personally, I've flown aircraft where a bit of trim during the flare helps keep the nose up when the mains hit. I think that is why they put the trim button on the yoke to make it easier for pilots like me with poor technique to do so. :D
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Has nothing to do with 'Chuck Yeager' skills. We're talking about basic pilot skills. Yes, using electric trim to help you flare will make it easier, but it is a crutch and has some potentially dangerous implications, such as having to fight the pitch if you had a sudden late go-around, or if the electric trim happens to fail you (which I have personally experienced in more than one airplane).

I did my ME training at under 100 TT flying a Twin Comanche. Now a Twinkie is known for being a little challenging to land well the first few times. Some call it 'nose heavy'. I was no exception and my initial landings were less than desirable. My first MEI taught me to use the trim in the flare to help. It did make it easier, but when that instructor left for an airline job, the next MEI had a fit the first time I started trimming in the flare. So, he made me learn to land the plane without it and after a while, I was making great landings and had a much better feel for the airplane. Trim may be easier, but you will be a better pilot if you take the time to get a feel for the airplane.
 
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If you have the plane in trim after you put in full flaps and established your speed for short final, there is neither super-human strength nor trim required to flare a light aircraft like the PA32 or PA30. The mistake people make is not to re-trim after they add flaps and just hold the control pressure. If you try to flare from an already elevated control pressure, you are going to get a 'nose heavy' sensation.
 
weilke said:
If you have the plane in trim after you put in full flaps and established your speed for short final, there is neither super-human strength nor trim required to flare a light aircraft like the PA32 or PA30. The mistake people make is not to re-trim after they add flaps and just hold the control pressure. If you try to flare from an already elevated control pressure, you are going to get a 'nose heavy' sensation.
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+100! Exactly! In all phases of flight (except for the flare) you should always keep the plane in trim. I've flown the so-called nose heavy planes, and as long as you are trimmed on short final you don't even notice the effort to flare.

"My plane is nose heavy" is equivalent to saying "I don't know how to trim!"
 
weilke said:
If you have the plane in trim after you put in full flaps and established your speed for short final, there is neither super-human strength nor trim required to flare a light aircraft like the PA32 or PA30. The mistake people make is not to re-trim after they add flaps and just hold the control pressure. If you try to flare from an already elevated control pressure, you are going to get a 'nose heavy' sensation.
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In our Lance, I played around with the power, trim settings. I started with gear down, full flaps and trimmed for 75 knots (final approach speed) and then cleaned up the flaps and added power until straight and level (without changing trim). This is the configuration I go for on downwind. With any luck at all, there is no trimming from there to touchdown.
 
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