Need Advice: First Piper Saratoga Lesson Today!

[Fearless Tower]

trimmed for 75 knots (final approach speed)

Non T-tail I presume?

 

[Sam D]

Non T-tail I presume?

Yes. '76. This wouldn't work for a t-tail?

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Ours is $164 wet - TACH time. However...this is So Cal where costs are high (KNVY, a corporate jet airport). At 16gph fuel alone is well north of $100 / hour. So this is reasonable. Also, the club just spend a lot of money on a first-rate restoration...new leather interior and great new paint.

I was going to buy a c C6 or Saratoga, but now I'm not so sure. LOVE this Saratoga.

Thanks for the valuable advise on flying at gross. I scheduled (with an instructor) a lesson next week with 4 big adults to Big Bear Airport (7,100 MSL). The take-off roll will be interesting...the runway ends at the lake.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Yes. '76. This wouldn't work for a t-tail?

You don't want to get the T-tail below 95 on final, especially when light. It is one of the quirks of the T-tail....below 95, the wing starts to blank out the tail.

 

[GCA319]

Thanks for typing this. Folks mention trimming in the flare for a Dakota and I always scratch my head wondering what they're on about. Just learn to pull.

A 182 or 210 with a foward CG requires quite a bit of nosu-up trim on short final to help with the pull (which should be full aft elevator when all is said and done).

 

[Fearless Tower]

A 182 or 210 with a foward CG requires quite a bit of nosu-up trim on short final to help with the pull (which should be full aft elevator when all is said and done).

There is a difference however in needing nose up trim on final and adding it during the flare.

 

[GCA319]

There is a difference however in needing nose up trim on final and adding it during the flare.

True. When in the flare, 100% of the pilot's attention should be out the window,not messing with the trim.

 

[spiderweb]

True. When in the flare, 100% of the pilot's attention should be out the window,not messing with the trim.

Yes, and that's especially important with the PA-32. With its long nose, at touchdown you almost lose the end of the runway (unless you enjoy landing flat).

 

[James_Dean]

True. When in the flare, 100% of the pilot's attention should be out the window,not messing with the trim.

I think everyone negative on this is cracked in the head or doesn't have time in the early PA-32. I can be *perfectly* trimmed on final an a simple 3-5 second thumb movement in the final seconds of landing makes it much easier to have a good landing in the saratoga. I certainly don't take my eyes "out the window" when doing this. Bad pilot technique? Bull****. It is a nose heavy bird with a huge weight envelope.

+600 hours in a FG PA32.

 

[trackersocha]

I hope to be flying a (new to me) 81 Toga home from GA in the next few days. this thread has helped me in my decision making process

 

[weilke]

I hope to be flying a (new to me) 81 Toga home from GA in the next few days. this thread has helped me in my decision making process

Enjoy. Great plane for anything but going fast .

 

[VWGhiaBob]

For whatever it's worth, this newbie (the OP) was told to trim ON FINAL. I did, and all 7 landings were "textbook" landings according to the guy checking me out. I did not notice much different from the Cherokee 140 or 180...just slightly more nose heavy than the 172. Properly trimmed, there really was no difference.

This included practice with several aborted approaches. The nose up trim didn't cause any issues. I simply held the yoke forward and trimmed it out.

Next up: More maneuvers and a cross country near gross to Big Bear (warm day density altitude can easily reach 8,500 feet). Now THAT should be interesting! There's a Cherokee 6 300 up there that's regularly used for tours with 6 - 8 passengers (the last two have to be kids!). I talked to the pilot, and he says that plane inspires confidence, even so loaded (but not with full fuel!). Love it!

 

[Fearless Tower]

Bull****. It is a nose heavy bird with a huge weight envelope.

+600 hours in a FG PA32.

Oh please.....we own a PA32RT....the nose doesn't get any 'heavier' than that. And yes, I have flown fixed gear PA32s as well....they are easier. Sure, trim in the flare might make it even easier, but completely unnecessary.

 

[MAKG1]

Next up: More maneuvers and a cross country near gross to Big Bear (warm day density altitude can easily reach 8,500 feet). Now THAT should be interesting! There's a Cherokee 6 300 up there that's regularly used for tours with 6 - 8 passengers (the last two have to be kids!). I talked to the pilot, and he says that plane inspires confidence, even so loaded (but not with full fuel!). Love it!

A warm day at Big Bear in late November?

I've been there at 8000+ DA. In a Warrior. The Saratoga won't give you much trouble. Especially since you're more likely to see 6000 DA this time of year.

Never assume performance. Read the tables, and confirm some of the numbers for actual conditions. Though I wouldn't recommend it, a 172N can do the described conditions (and a bit more) at max gross.

You're gonna need a ton of runway.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Yes...it has been pretty warm this year...no snow yet. DA may or may not be higher than elevation. I assume I should do a short field takeoff with 25 degrees of flaps, lots of leaning. My instructor will be with me, and he owns a Saratoga. I have 4 passengers plus the instructor, so I will definitely be near gross.

Thanks for the advise!

 

[MAKG1]

No offense intended, but READ THE PERFORMANCE TABLE. I can't emphasize enough how important that is. That will tell you if a short field takeoff is necessary. I did a normal takeoff in the Warrior. Yes, you will need to lean at run-up prior to takeoff. For fixed pitch, lean for best RPM, either at run-up power or at full power. I'd suggest full power in an unfamiliar aircraft. You may need to lean for engine start (but I doubt the DA is high enough for that).

Other recommendations are:

1. Estimate Vy at altitude. It will be significantly slower than at sea level. In the Warrior at 8000 DA, it was in the neighborhood of 65 KIAS. I could get a 500 FPM climb at 65. A lot less at 75 (yes, I tried it). If you DO opt for the short field takeoff, Vx is slightly higher at altitude.

2. Identify an abort point on the runway before your takeoff run. Make it far enough from the end that you can abort the takeoff without overrunning if you don't like it. If the runway is long enough (and I suspect Big Bear is), the criterion can be 50 ft AGL by a certain point, which guarantees you can get out of ground effect or abort.

3. You're not going to get a 1000 FPM climb. Be prepared for that. In calm winds, a 200 FPM climb may look really scary, but it's still a climb.

For really high altitude airports, the standard technique is a soft field takeoff, not short field, to get the rolling resistance of the wheels out of the picture. Big Bear isn't high enough where this is essential, but you can practice it.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

No offense taken! I appreciate the advise, and always read the POH. I will focus on the take-off roll, leaning procedures, and Vspeeds at this altitude at gross.

The runway is just under 6,000 feet. It ends at the lake, which is flat for several miles, so even a slow climb is fine. Seems like plenty, but will check the POH.