Nebraska Registered SR-22 Down In Ohio

[JOhnH]

. . . The chute itself may tend to make pilots feel a false sense of security adding more risk into their flight plans??? Just a thought...im sure im not the first to think this.

Change "chute" to "helmet" and "Pilot" to "motorcycle riders" and I think te same logic applies. Maybe more so with motorcycles because the helmet is itself a liability.
But sans facts of this accident, I will hold off on blaming Cirrus.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

This is crazy! GA planes dropping like flys everywhere. WTH!


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What makes you think the rate has changed?

http://www.aopa.org/About-AOPA/Gene...l-Aviation-Safety-Record-Current-and-Historic

 

[PAustin]

Just seems like over the past month+ we keep hearing about one or two going down almost every week.


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[Jaybird180]

For a description of the numbers, see this COPA web page, Cirrus Accident Rates.

Cheers
Rick

Thanks for joining the party

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

Just seems like over the past month+ we keep hearing about one or two going down almost every week.


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The historical GA fatal accidents are down to 3 every 4 days, down from one a day.

You are seeing nothing unusual, and are missing many of them.

 

[PAustin]

Well then, I guess we as pilots better get used to the fact that it's not if, but when we crash and die. I know I've been reading and hearing of more lately. Maybe it's the better media/internet coverage with forums, news and chat websites we have now?

I do know that my pilot buddies are talking about it more everyday. Historical statistics, maybe.... But, you just wonder....


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[F01LA]

Well then, I guess we as pilots better get used to the fact that it's not if, but when we crash and die. I know I've been reading and hearing of more lately. Maybe it's the better media/internet coverage with forums, news and chat websites we have now?

Here's an exercise: Look up the GA fatal accident rate per 100,000 hours or whatever. Figure up the approximate number of hours you will fly in your lifetime. Then find your rough % chance of dying in an airplane accident.

"Not if, but when" sounds pretty fatalistic to me, and not particularly factual.

 

[ClimbnSink]

"Not if, but when" sounds pretty fatalistic to me, and not particularly factual.

Because most of us can't afford to fly enough to run out the odds

 

[PAustin]

Trust me. No matter what I fly (all kinds of different stuff) and no matter how much I do aerobatics (my passion) mostly in Pitts and Decathlons, I don't "plan" on dying in an aircraft.

The above statement was sarcasm as to the analytical responses concerning the historical statistics when a statement like "gee, seems like they are dropping like flys" gets blown up.


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[N801BH]

Negative. No other NTSB investigation lists Wyoming than Rock Springs.

An SR20 crashed at Maybell, Colorado, the chute deployed from impact forces, and it dragged the wreckage 1.5 miles into Wyoming, close to Baggs, WY. This image shows the CAPS activation cable:

Cheers
Rick

Interesting... A completely different story then I heard.....

Funny... The main reason to pull the chute is exactly why these guys needed it....

And they didn't pull......

Ideas ??

 

[F01LA]

Because most of us can't afford to fly enough to run out the odds

That may not be far from the truth. On the other hand, flying too little can be dangerous when you *do* fly. I wonder what the yearly "sweet spot" is in number of hours that keeps you sharp, but also keeps you from racking up too many hours and upping your odds of dying?

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

Is there by chance a break away on these things so you can cut away from the chute on the ground?

 

[Jaybird180]

That may not be far from the truth. On the other hand, flying too little can be dangerous when you *do* fly. I wonder what the yearly "sweet spot" is in number of hours that keeps you sharp, but also keeps you from racking up too many hours and upping your odds of dying?

The odds are not linear. The stats account for dumb pilot tricks, etc.

YOU are responsible for your own personal risk in an airplane. If you say "it will not happen to me", then do the things the successful pilots do and don't do the things the dead ones did. One of my mentors retired from aviation. He beat the odds (and has a lot of hours flying observational airplanes with no weaponry in Vietnam). It can be done.

Personally, I plan to die an old man. Perhaps die with a PYT

 

[Geico266]

Well then, I guess we as pilots better get used to the fact that it's not if, but when we crash and die. I know I've been reading and hearing of more lately. Maybe it's the better media/internet coverage with forums, news and chat websites we have now?

I do know that my pilot buddies are talking about it more everyday. Historical statistics, maybe.... But, you just wonder....


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Complete bull ****. I can only hope you are not kidding. How's that for direct?

Seriously, there are a lot of retired pilots. If you did not know that you are maybe a pilot, certainly not an aviator.

 

[PAustin]

Complete bull ****. I can only hope you are not kidding. How's that for direct?



Seriously, there are a lot of retired pilots. If you did not know that you are a pilot, not an aviator.

LOL - you crack me up..... Hahahahaha . Really?


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[Lindberg]

If the issue is whether the CAPS enables risky behavior, don't we need to look at statistics for all accidents?

 

[Jaybird180]

If the issue is whether the CAPS enables risky behavior, don't we need to look at statistics for all accidents?

That has been speculated for a long time, however considering the accident trend is declining for Cirrus, it would logically seem to upset that theory.

Cirrus made specific training changes. That's where the risk has been reduced. They also are training pilots to "Pull the Damn Chute!"

 

[sdbeach]

Interesting... A completely different story then I heard.....

Funny... The main reason to pull the chute is exactly why these guys needed it....

And they didn't pull......

Ideas ??

Indeed, by my reckoning, 120 people have died in 58 Cirrus fatal accidents where the pilot faced a scenario in which another pilot pulled the red CAPS handle and all survived. That is, in similar scenarios, one pilot pulled and all lived while another pilot didn't pull and all died.

Consequently, in about 2007, the Cirrus community really worked on bringing the consideration of the use of CAPS from "last resort" to "first consider." The POH actually used the phrase "last resort" and we believe that enabled too many instructors and pilots to dismiss the need or use of the parachute in a Cirrus -- with deadly consequences. And the concept of "Consider CAPS" as the first step in an emergency procedure was to build in awareness. We teach that the answer should never be "No" but instead always "Not yet." From interviewing pilots who have subsequently used CAPS, they report exactly this decision process -- do I need CAPS now, and if not keep it in the front of mind before I get too fast or too low.

IMHO, the community response to your question has made significant improvements in pilot decision-making when flying Cirrus aircraft.

Cheers
Rick

 

[sdbeach]

Is there by chance a break away on these things so you can cut away from the chute on the ground?

No.

To my knowledge, no one has been injured after a landing under canopy. The Cirrus parachute has reinflated and flipped over several aircraft, with one dramatic video at Fort Hall, ID, where the parachute dragged the aircraft at perhaps 15 mph upside down until the parachute snagged on a power pole! Fortunately, the occupants had already exited the aircraft and watched without injury.

The current guidance for first responders advises that the parachute should be deflated by covering with water and then parking a vehicle on it. You may have seen the fire fighters at Frederick mid-air doing that with the Cirrus parachute billowing above the trees.

Cheers
Rick

 

[Jaybird180]

No.

To my knowledge, no one has been injured after a landing under canopy. The Cirrus parachute has reinflated and flipped over several aircraft, with one dramatic video at Fort Hall, ID, where the parachute dragged the aircraft at perhaps 15 mph upside down until the parachute snagged on a power pole! Fortunately, the occupants had already exited the aircraft and watched without injury.

The current guidance for first responders advises that the parachute should be deflated by covering with water and then parking a vehicle on it. You may have seen the fire fighters at Frederick mid-air doing that with the Cirrus parachute billowing above the trees.

Cheers
Rick

Parking a vehicle on it, I get. What's the idea behind covering it with water?

 

[sdbeach]

If the issue is whether the CAPS enables risky behavior, don't we need to look at statistics for all accidents?

That has been speculated for a long time, however considering the accident trend is declining for Cirrus, it would logically seem to upset that theory.

You are both right. The number of NTSB investigations of Cirrus aircraft has declined over the past few years. Recall that Cirrus continues to deliver 250-300 new airplanes each year, a 5% annual increase, while the number of accidents declines.

And risk homeostasis, related to increasing tolerance of risk when given additional risk-reduction features, is a real and known challenge for Cirrus pilots. This applies to glass cockpits, parachute recovery systems, even airbag seatbelts in aircraft. However, we are seeing a decline in all Cirrus accidents that we believe reflects an improved Culture of Safety in the Cirrus community.

Cheers
Rick

 

[sdbeach]

Parking a vehicle on it, I get. What's the idea behind covering it with water?

Using water reduces the risk to people attempting to wrestle a 55-foot diameter parachute canopy blowing the breeze, which would easily lift one of us off the ground! Check out the size in this photo from the Frederick mid-air.

And water is something that these guys bring with them!

Cheers
Rick

 

[Geico266]

Parking a vehicle on it, I get. What's the idea behind covering it with water?

The weight of the water would help knock the canopy down (in a limited way) and keep it from becoming reinflated. Obviously, only useful if the first responders have hoses deployed. Usually, that is not the case off field.

 

[Henning]

Not to mention that whoever owned the tower might notice all their crap stopped working and the tower lying on the ground in a heap of bent metal.

I've not heard of a large tower coming down in a small aircraft strike, usually the plane gets chopped up in the guy wires.

 

[Henning]

Indeed, by my reckoning, 120 people have died in 58 Cirrus fatal accidents where the pilot faced a scenario in which another pilot pulled the red CAPS handle and all survived. That is, in similar scenarios, one pilot pulled and all lived while another pilot didn't pull and all died.

Consequently, in about 2007, the Cirrus community really worked on bringing the consideration of the use of CAPS from "last resort" to "first consider." The POH actually used the phrase "last resort" and we believe that enabled too many instructors and pilots to dismiss the need or use of the parachute in a Cirrus -- with deadly consequences. And the concept of "Consider CAPS" as the first step in an emergency procedure was to build in awareness. We teach that the answer should never be "No" but instead always "Not yet." From interviewing pilots who have subsequently used CAPS, they report exactly this decision process -- do I need CAPS now, and if not keep it in the front of mind before I get too fast or too low.

IMHO, the community response to your question has made significant improvements in pilot decision-making when flying Cirrus aircraft.

Cheers
Rick

I think one thing discounted on the "didn't pull" events is human reaction to great stressors, some people disassociate and just sit there frozen, watching the events unfold like they're watching a movie.

 

[Geico266]

I've not heard of a large tower coming down in a small aircraft strike, usually the plane gets chopped up in the guy wires.

We have had a couple get knocked down by planes. The most memorable one was a brand new pilot carrying his daughter and girlfriend descending through a cloud layer. He was not IFR rated. Probably thought; "Hey, this is Nebraska! It it is flat. No need to worry about hitting anything!". He hit a 1,500' tower.

 

[VWGhiaBob]

Ouch...another one for cirrus.

Could faintly hear....Noooooooo!!!!!, from the marketing dept in MN even in California. Your results may vary.

Hate to see this with anyone in any aircraft ...seems cirrus even with the chute isn't any safer. The chute itself may tend to make pilots feel a false sense of security adding more risk into their flight plans??? Just a thought...im sure im not the first to think this.

Check the facts, fellow poster. Just bought an SR22, because fatality / accident rates are now WAY below the rest of GA. Cirrus had a bad streak early on. But as the plane and pilots have matured and training improved, the accident rate has plummeted to historic lows.

 

[denverpilot]

If the issue is whether the CAPS enables risky behavior, don't we need to look at statistics for all accidents?

Start with birth control. LOL

 

[Swampfox201]

The preliminary is out:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20141107X75136&key=1

 

[Jaybird180]

The preliminary is out:

http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20141107X75136&key=1

The rocket motor and parachute were found within subsurface empennage and fuselage fragments in the main wreckage area. The rocket motor was found with its propellant expended and it exhibited discoloration consistent with thermal damage. The parachute was found in a packed state and it exhibited deformation and discoloration consistent with thermal damage.

Is it possible they didn't even know they were in trouble?

 

[hindsight2020]

Is it possible they didn't even know they were in trouble?

Spatial D? Absolutely possible.

 

[Henning]

Is it possible they didn't even know they were in trouble?

Reads to me like he iced up the tail and he didn't recover from the stall or pull the handle, either that or the charge/rocket failed to break open the cover.

 

[Swampfox201]

I agree with Henning in that my guess is ice brought the plane down. Whether or not the chute handle was pulled......I could read it both ways in that report.

 

[KA550]

When will the Cirrus mafia be along to tell us how the chute helped in this accident? Shouldn't be long.

 

[Geico266]

Is it possible they didn't even know they were in trouble?

It was night. It is possible they didn't know, but not likely. Most likely the rocket was discharged on the ground post impact & fire. Why they rode it to the ground is the mystery. JMHO.

All I know is all 3 people were outstanding citizens. They were dedicated to their families, community, and aviation. There is a hole in the heart Grand Island, NE .. correction, all of Nebraska today. They will be deeply missed.

 

[LoneAspen]

It doesn't make sense to me that they found the rocket motor propellant expended, and evidence of thermal damage, but the chute was in a packed state, also with thermal damage.

It seems only two possibilities: Either the CAPS handle was pulled but the panel didn't blow off, or maybe the propellant somehow ignited after the crash?

Very strange.

 

[ClimbnSink]

It doesn't make sense to me that they found the rocket motor propellant expended, and evidence of thermal damage, but the chute was in a packed state, also with thermal damage.

It seems only two possibilities: Either the CAPS handle was pulled but the panel didn't blow off, or maybe the propellant somehow ignited after the crash?

Very strange.

There was a post crash fire(Cirrus specialty) But yeah shouldn't the rocket have left the plane even ignited by fire? And is there a risk to FDs tending a burning Cirrus?

 

[Henning]

It doesn't make sense to me that they found the rocket motor propellant expended, and evidence of thermal damage, but the chute was in a packed state, also with thermal damage.

It seems only two possibilities: Either the CAPS handle was pulled but the panel didn't blow off, or maybe the propellant somehow ignited after the crash?

Very strange.

That it would ignite as an effect of the impact is plausible.

 

[Geico266]

There was a post crash fire(Cirrus specialty) But yeah shouldn't the rocket have left the plane even ignited by fire? And is there a risk to FDs tending a burning Cirrus?

Not necessarily. If the rocket motor is damaged by fire prior to the ignition it might burn in several directions negating the force needed to launch. Think catastrophic failure on launch.

 

[Geico266]

It doesn't make sense to me that they found the rocket motor propellant expended, and evidence of thermal damage, but the chute was in a packed state, also with thermal damage.

It seems only two possibilities: Either the CAPS handle was pulled but the panel didn't blow off, or maybe the propellant somehow ignited after the crash?

Very strange.

Initial eye witness reports said it was on fire prior to impact. Maybe they pulled it and it burned without blowing the panel due to ice?