Near Miss

rtk11

rtk11

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rtk
Yeah, talking about a near "miss" (and not that I m'm near Mississippi or in proximity of a young lady.)

The FAA defines a near miss as being with 500 feet. We were closer. A LOT closer. As in 30 feet. At an altitude of 800 feet. Not a lot of maneuvering room. And I could clearly see the other aircraft (a Cessna 182) and pilot right in front of me.

I was on a 3 mile final and cleared to land. At 2 miles out, the Cessna turned base right into my flight path at my altitude. This at a towered airport! I had just enough time to yell, "Holy S..." and lower the nose when the other pilot caught sight of us as he turned. We missed each other by 30 feet... the closest my CFI in the right seat had ever experienced in 50 years of flying.

I was a little unnerved, but landed fine. The other pilot was similarly unsettled and locked up his tires on touch-down and blew a right main tire.

Good news is we all walked away. Better news is that the trainer I fly has a parachute, and the airplane that I own has a parachute. It was close, and what they say about time slowing down is absolutely true.

I won't name the airport, but the other pilot was a gentleman and came over to chat and apologize. In my opinion, it was the tower that should have maintained airspace separation. Whatever the case, my CFI is handling the paperwork and dialogs. I'm on my 3rd beer in 10 minutes as I write this.
 
There was no traffic or sequence given by tower?
 
If it was a "Delta" the controller would not have responsibility to maintain airspace separation.

Glad it was a near hit.
 
rtk11 said:
Better news is that the trainer I fly has a parachute, and the airplane that I own has a parachute. It was close, and what they say about time slowing down is absolutely true.

I'm on my 3rd beer in 10 minutes as I write this.
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You mentioned parachute twice, so did you pull? (just had to, it's POA)

A few more beers and you'll be fine.
 
EppyGA said:
If it was a "Delta" the controller would not have responsibility to maintain airspace separation.

.
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Tower controller required to sequence traffic, ie "Cessna xxx follow Cessna 182 on base, #2, cleared to land", something like that.
 
Don't think the 'chute would help on final, might even make it worse.
 
Post impact, I wouldn't count on a airframe chute to be your salvation.

 
Lol - no chute pull. But good to have as an option.

Cessna was #2 and was looking at the wrong airplane. But can't controller should have noticed what was going on as he was controlling sequence.

I don't want to say which airport as they normally are excellent. Everyone has an "off" day, but this was serious in how close it was. I think about how close I came to possibly orphaning my wife and child.

Time for that 6th beer...:p
 
rtk11 said:
But can't controller should have noticed what was going on as he was controlling sequence.
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Yup he/she should have. I'm a retired controller and that's what those big windows are for, watching your traffic pattern. Controller screwed up. Fortunately y'all saw each other.
 
rtk11 said:
Lol - no chute pull. But good to have as an option.

Cessna was #2 and was looking at the wrong airplane. But can't controller should have noticed what was going on as he was controlling sequence.

I don't want to say which airport as they normally are excellent. Everyone has an "off" day, but this was serious in how close it was. I think about how close I came to possibly orphaning my wife and child.

Time for that 6th beer...:p
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The controller's job is to issue the sequence. While radar helps, it's very hard to tell if the pilot is looking at the correct aircraft. There's no set distance that the C182 pilot has to maintain behind you. Also, if he was cleared to land #2, what other aircraft could they possibly mistake for you?
 
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rtk11 said:
Yeah, talking about a near "miss" (and not that I m'm near Mississippi or in proximity of a young lady.)

The FAA defines a near miss as being with 500 feet. We were closer. A LOT closer. As in 30 feet. At an altitude of 800 feet. Not a lot of maneuvering room. And I could clearly see the other aircraft (a Cessna 182) and pilot right in front of me.

I was on a 3 mile final and cleared to land. At 2 miles out, the Cessna turned base right into my flight path at my altitude. This at a towered airport! I had just enough time to yell, "Holy S..." and lower the nose when the other pilot caught sight of us as he turned. We missed each other by 30 feet... the closest my CFI in the right seat had ever experienced in 50 years of flying.

I was a little unnerved, but landed fine. The other pilot was similarly unsettled and locked up his tires on touch-down and blew a right main tire.

Good news is we all walked away. Better news is that the trainer I fly has a parachute, and the airplane that I own has a parachute. It was close, and what they say about time slowing down is absolutely true.

I won't name the airport, but the other pilot was a gentleman and came over to chat and apologize. In my opinion, it was the tower that should have maintained airspace separation. Whatever the case, my CFI is handling the paperwork and dialogs. I'm on my 3rd beer in 10 minutes as I write this.
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Wow that was close!!
Congrats on landing safe!
 
rtk11 said:
I was a little unnerved, but landed fine. The other pilot was similarly unsettled and locked up his tires on touch-down and blew a right main tire.
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So wait, did you guys both land and he locked his brakes up to get stopped, or did he do a go around and blew the tire on the second attempt?
 
Controllers are human and make mistakes, especially under high workload (e.g., Chino on a sunny Saturday); other pilots sometime don't follow the directions of the controllers accurately, or in a timely fashion.
Gotta keep the scan up, no matter where you are or whose control you're under. I'm glad no one was hurt.
 
That was closer than the one I experienced at Palo Alto. Departing student pilot turned crosswind at me (early for that airport) as I entered downwind. I immediately descended 100 feet as he was already at my altitude, sped up, and turned crosswind to avoid.
 
farmerbrake said:
So wait, did you guys both land and he locked his brakes up to get stopped, or did he do a go around and blew the tire on the second attempt?
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Pilot of the 182 went around and locked up the tires on the second attempt.

Acrodustertoo said:
Pics or audio or it didn't happen
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Uh... you want to see pics of soiled underwear?

Just checked LiveATC, but the feed is down. My CFI let the controller know in no uncertain terms he wanted to talk to the them on landing. The rest of the conversation was via cell phone.
 
MAKG1 said:
That was closer than the one I experienced at Palo Alto. Departing student pilot turned crosswind at me (early for that airport) as I entered downwind. I immediately descended 100 feet as he was already at my altitude, sped up, and turned crosswind to avoid.
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Glad to read that you were able to see, take immediate action, and avoid. And super glad nothing happened.

The 182 appeared from my right and I could not see the aircraft since my wing blocked my view until he was at my 1:00. My CFI didn't see him until I yelled, then caught sight of the 182 crossing our flight path on final. It is surreal and I have replayed the incident in my mind many times.
 
Yeah, it wasn't THAT close either, but close enough that continuing normally was not a good idea.

Tower had a really bad day that day. You could tell. Lots of errors. In this case, they should have extended his upwind, and the traffic call they gave him was too late. There were quite a few less severe errors as well.
 
Not doubting you so don't take this the wrong way.

500' looks DAMN close. 30'..?? At a closure rate of even 150 mph is roughly 1/10 of one second until impact.
That assumes a non head-on situation. Could be more and could be less. After all, you can fly formation less than 30' and it's not a near miss. But heading on a collision course... YIKES!!!
 
mscard88 said:
Yup he/she should have. I'm a retired controller and that's what those big windows are for, watching your traffic pattern. Controller screwed up. Fortunately y'all saw each other.
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We don't know what the controller was doing. Local can't watch everything at the same time. He could have been looking at a preceeding arrival to gauge whether it would clear the runway in time, sequencing an inbound and a departure that is remaining in the pattern, or some other necessary activity.
 
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EppyGA said:
If it was a "Delta" the controller would not have responsibility to maintain airspace separation.
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All towers must provide sequencing of aircraft and runway separation, even those in Class G airspace. When two aircraft nearly meet on final the tower has failed to provide both.
 
I'll pour one out for you after work. It probably isn't possible to drink enough to forget that, but I will drink to the fact you lived! :cheers:
 
Beachcomber said:
Flying a Sport Cruiser?
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I was in a Remos GX. In this case, if I were in a low wing like the Sport a Cruiser, I might have seen the other aircraft sooner since my wing blocked the view until the Cessna was at my 1 o'clock position.
 
kkoran said:
We don't know what the controller was doing. Local can't watch everything at the same time. He could have been looking at a preferring arrival to gauge whether it would clear the runway in time, sequencing an inbound and a departure that is remaining in the pattern, or some other necessary activity.
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Wrong wrong wrong! If that controller has a plane on short final and another on base, you're saying he may have been doing something else and not noticed? Really? I don't know if you're a controller but I was, and I always watched my traffic.
 
mscard88 said:
Wrong wrong wrong! If that controller has a plane on short final and another on base, you're saying he may have been doing something else and not noticed? Really? I don't know if you're a controller but I was, and I always watched my traffic.
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Yeah but you and I both know, especially with small GA aircraft, it's difficult to determine if they're actually following the aircraft or on a collision course. Tucking in about 1/2 mile behind another aircraft vs collision track, is even hard to determine on radar.

While a failure on the controller's part to monitor their airspace, I'd say maybe half the local controllers out there have the skills to step in and issue a safety alert in the OP's case.
 
Kritchlow said:
Not doubting you so don't take this the wrong way.

500' looks DAMN close. 30'..?? At a closure rate of even 150 mph is roughly 1/10 of one second until impact.
That assumes a non head-on situation. Could be more and could be less. After all, you can fly formation less than 30' and it's not a near miss. But heading on a collision course... YIKES!!!
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No worries - I can understand it seems implausible given the stated distance. But I would have guessed 50 feet. My CFI said 30 feet and he's more accurate than I am in these things, and that's the distance he told the Controller as he gave them a piece of his mind. Either way, it was CLOSE.

The speed wasn't a head-on. I'm flying a Light Sport and was configured and setup for a soft field landing. I was at 60 knots. The Cessna turned base in front of me, and I'm unclear of his speed, but would guess about 70 knots. He was at nearly a right angle to me, so the closure rate is about 65 knots, or about 1 second. Still way too close for me. I've attached a drawing I made of what I saw.

Cessna affirmed he was #2 and had traffic in sight. I heard him. The Cessna pilot later said he saw another aircraft and thought that was the traffic.

Whatever the case, I'm back up in the air this AM. I can't let this incident affect me.

 
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Velocity173 said:
Yeah but you and I both know, especially with small GA aircraft, it's difficult to determine if they're actually following the aircraft or on a collision course. .
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Respectfully disagree. If you're watching your traffic, especially this one where one I on base and the other on final, say something and resequence them!
 
mscard88 said:
Respectfully disagree. If you're watching your traffic, especially this one where one I on base and the other on final, say something and resequence them!
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Sure, you, myself and Steven would never let something like this happen. Not all controllers today are that good! :D
 
Velocity173 said:
Sure, you, myself and Steven would never let something like this happen. Not all controllers today are that good! :D
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You can make light of it, but I took the job seriously. Yeah I had weak controllers work with me but I kept my eye on them and their traffic.
 
rtk11 said:
No worries - I can understand it seems implausible given the stated distance. But I would have guessed 50 feet. My CFI said 30 feet and he's more accurate than I am in these things, and that's the distance he told the Controller as he gave them a piece of his mind. Either way, it was CLOSE.

The speed wasn't a head-on. I'm flying a Light Sport and was configured and setup for a soft field landing. I was at 60 knots. The Cessna turned base in front of me, and I'm unclear of his speed, but would guess about 70 knots. He was at nearly a right angle to me, so the closure rate is about 65 knots, or about 1 second. Still way too close for me. I've attached a drawing I made of what I saw.

Cessna affirmed he was #2 and had traffic in sight. I heard him. The Cessna pilot later said he saw another aircraft and thought that was the traffic.

Whatever the case, I'm back up in the air this AM. I can't let this incident affect me.

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So the Cessna pilot saw another aircraft and turned to follow it? Wouldn't that make that other aircraft #1, you #2, and him #3? Without a verbatim transcript inclusive of all concerned it's impossible to determine cause.
 
mscard88 said:
You can make light of it, but I took the job seriously. Yeah I had weak controllers work with me but I kept my eye on them and their traffic.
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Well if you believe that the average LC is that attentive to intervene in the OP's situation, then you have way more faith in their abilities than I do.

Can't even count how many times we've had close call stories on POA while in controlled airspace. Never put full trust in ATC and other pilots to be doing the right thing.
 
roncachamp said:
So the Cessna pilot saw another aircraft and turned to follow it? Wouldn't that make that other aircraft #1, you #2, and him #3? Without a verbatim transcript inclusive of all concerned it's impossible to determine cause.
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No, I was cleared to land. Cessna was #2 and told to look for a light sport on 3 mile final. Cessna says he was tracking another aircraft, but I don't know which he was following. I was told that I was cleared to land and I repeated and affirmed my clearance.
 
Sounds like a tough situation. A good reminder that we must keep eyes outside and moving.

I know a couple guys that can fly a near perfect centerline on approach, seemingly correcting before any drift. I always wonder if they are too focused on the runway and not maintaining traffic scan.
 
I feel there is value in looking for number two on base when I am number one straight in.

Having an aircraft on base when I am on a three mile straight in would put me on high alert.

In my opinion your flight instructor should have seen him sooner.

I try to have a picture in my mind of where all the players are and reinforce it with traffic in sight.

At 65kts the other traffic may have been expecting you to be going faster and looked for you in the wrong place and small aircraft are harder to see.
 
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