Navy moves to allow women on submarines

Oh, all the usual comments about "The LOVE Boat . . ." and 'hot-racking', but nothing productive. :lol:
 
Skimmer here, fresh air snipe, pre-women on war ships thank you very much. On some deployments 50% of the women got pregnant. Birth control pills are passed out like candy, condoms are made available next to the hand sanitizers. I am confident women can do the jobs they are assigned, but mix teenagers to twenty somethings together and sparks are gonna fly. There are alot of secrete places to stow away on a ship.

IMHO having women serve with men on a US Navy ship was a HUGE mistake. Not for the people serving, hell they are enjoying themselves, but for the love children product of these "Love Boats".

Old Navy here. Carry on.

JMHO
 
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catmandu said:
Oh, all the usual comments about "The LOVE Boat . . ." and 'hot-racking', but nothing productive. :lol:
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You seen the berthing area on a submarine. There isn't enough room for two in there. I know, somebody will prove me wrong, but my recollections from my time as a yard bird at MINSY suggest that hot-racking won't be where it happens. :D
 
What woman in her right mind would want to be confined with 100+ smelly guys?


Trapper John
 
Really? We're going to put 18 year olds of different sexes together on a boat....what could possibly go wrong?
 
SkyHog said:
Really? We're going to put 18 year olds of different sexes together on a boat....what could possibly go wrong?
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Yeah but aren't the racks so close together that..........Oh never mind. :eek:
 
Sex happens. Whether it's homo or hetero or auto, young people are going to get their needs satisfied (so are old people).

The question for the military is how to address the issue keeping in mind that the top priority is combat effectiveness. When a person joins the military they willingly and knowingly sign up to be parts of a bigger machine. They give up lots of rights and freedoms because they think it's worth it.

I don't think a male and female having sex in a sub/ship/truck/watch center is any more disruptive to combat effectiveness than two males, or two women, or even a sailor taking a favorite magazine to his rack or the head when he should be on duty.

Pregnancy is another issue. That's a unique problem for female warriors, but it can and should be separated from the "sex" issue. There are some solutions to the problem (i.e. Norplant) but I understand the reluctance to insist on them.

Rape is NOT a sex issue. Rape happens in all-male units, and all-female units, and is an issue of violence.

End result - I think if the pregnancy issue were resolved the other issues would be a matter of cultural adaptation, just like integrating the races or the repeal of "Don't ask, don't tell".
 
Nearly 1 of 3 women in uniform are already being raped by their male counterparts. This is not a good direction to go.
 
Trapper John said:
What woman in her right mind would want to be confined with 100+ smelly guys?
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I was wondering what person would want to be confined on a submarine...

That said I don't have a problem with it at all.
 
gismo said:
Perhaps the solution would be to eliminate the men.
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I've been trying to institute a new campaign in-line with the "Have your pets spayed or neutered" one that I so fervently encourage.

"Have your kids spayed or neutered."

It doesn't seem to be catching on.
 
Everskyward said:
So if this is true is it a problem with the women or with the men?
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Actually, from what I've read and what's being reported it's more of an institutional problem. Reports go uninvestigated, the victims are told to STFU and are demonized...just like they tend to be in the rest of society.
 
Everskyward said:
So if this is true is it a problem with the women or with the men?
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The problem is having them in close proximity on a war ship, or combat situation whether it be land, sea or air. Its a huge problem that is getting swept under the rug in the name of Politcal Correctness. Just like the Major's problems at Fort Hood prior to the massacre.
 
timwinters said:
Actually, from what I've read and what's being reported it's more of an institutional problem. Reports go uninvestigated, the victims are told to STFU and are demonized...just like they tend to be in the rest of society.
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So the solution is to keep women out? Should we keep women out of colleges too since rape occurs there?
 
Anthony said:
The problem is having them in close proximity on a war ship, or combat situation whether it be land, sea or air. Its a huge problem that is getting swept under the rug in the name of Politcal Correctness. Just like the Major's problems at Fort Hood prior to the massacre.
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Don't you think the people we are trusting to defend our country should have enough self-control not to rape their associates?
 
Everskyward said:
Don't you think the people we are trusting to defend our country should have enough self-control not to rape their associates?
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Yes I do. I'm talking more about consentual relations. Obviously, they have not had that self control to date.
 
Anthony said:
The problem is having them in close proximity on a war ship, or combat situation whether it be land, sea or air. Its a huge problem that is getting swept under the rug in the name of Politcal Correctness.
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Oh, for Pete's sake! Blame the women, because they are women, and the men have no control? I guess they should be in the kitchen, barefoot, making your dinner...

Just like the Major's problems at Fort Hood prior to the massacre.
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Comparing a deranged male to all female military personnel? WTF?


Trapper John
 
Anthony said:
The problem is having them in close proximity on a war ship, or combat situation whether it be land, sea or air. Its a huge problem that is getting swept under the rug in the name of Politcal Correctness. Just like the Major's problems at Fort Hood prior to the massacre.
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That statement assumes that such things only happen in the military. It's a society wide problem, not limited to the military.

I have several friends who I know have been raped. Not a single one has reported the crime to the authorities, and I'm pretty well convinced that had they done so, there wouldn't have been any sort of investigation in any case. It's not just a military thing.

My blame goes to the men. There are certainly some conditions that may not encourage it but will make it more probable. Being confined in a small area with hormones raging? That would be a highly probable one.
 
Anthony said:
I'm talking more about consentual relations.
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I think there are rules about consensual relations in the military. If you sign up you should follow the rules. If you break them you should be disciplined whether you are male or female.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
That statement assumes that such things only happen in the military. It's a society wide problem, not limited to the military.

I have several friends who I know have been raped. Not a single one has reported the crime to the authorities, and I'm pretty well convinced that had they done so, there wouldn't have been any sort of investigation in any case. It's not just a military thing.

My blame goes to the men. There are certainly some conditions that may not encourage it but will make it more probable. Being confined in a small area with hormones raging? That would be a highly probable one.
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I'm surprised no one has ever developed a tampon like product that's safe for the female user but would impart serious and painful damage to any male components involved in a rape attempt. That wouldn't affect the (only slightly less serious) improper fondling and harassment but I'd think it would go a long way towards reducing rapes.
 
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Trapper John said:
Oh, for Pete's sake! Blame the women, because they are women, and the men have no control? I guess they should be in the kitchen, barefoot, making your dinner...
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Yes, and wearing a burqa. Women exist to enflame us (and, uh, keep the house tidy, do the cooking, and take care of the kids); we men can't be held responsible for what we do when we see a bit of ankle. :D ;)
 
gismo said:
I'm surprised no one has ever developed a tampon like product that's safe for the female user but would impart serious and painful damage to any male components involved in a rape attempt. That wouldn't affect the (only slightly less serious) improper fondling and harassment but I'd think it would go a long way towards reducing rapes.
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I like the idea, I just wonder how it would play out in court. I can see lawsuits coming left and right.
 
gismo said:
I'm surprised no one has ever developed a tampon like product that's safe for the female user but would impart serious and painful damage to any male components involved in a rape attempt. That wouldn't affect the (only slightly less serious) improper fondling and harassment but I'd think it would go a long way towards reducing rapes.
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Well, there are chastity belts...safe for the woman, but not exactly comfy. Not all of them merely prevented "you-know-what" entirely; some were made so that you could try it, but you'd get hurt real bad. Chastity devices have been made- and are still made- for men, as well as women... a "hardware-based" solution.


The problem with this, though, is that coitus is only part of it- if that can't be done, the rapist will still be determined to humiliate- and hurt- the victim.

I think in a situation like submarine duty, the most effective thing would be establishing a culture where it is NOT OK to keep quiet or circle the wagons... a woman on a ship ought to be able to holler "Rape!" and have every other man on the ship rush to her aid. After the rapist is dealt with (I think keel-hauling would be nice for a start), the victim should not be treated like damaged goods, or believed to have been "asking for it", or thought of as a tattle-tale or a weakling.

This mentality where the victim is blamed or ostracized, where silence is the rapists's ally... that's the main problem, and the one that's easier to fix than somehow guessing who is potentially a rapist.

But it's an ancient code... good luck to any commander who has to make this work on a sub!!
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I like the idea, I just wonder how it would play out in court. I can see lawsuits coming left and right.
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I wouldn't worry too much about that.

First, to file the lawsuit, the allegedly-injured plaintiff would have to admit to attempted rape, with attempt generally carrying the same - or at least similar - penalty to an "actually accomplished" crime. That's because in our system, it's not necessarily the result which we punish - we instead want to punish bad people and the evil intent, and intent with an "attempt" and an "accomplished crime" is the same.

Second, as a matter of generality, you have to do equity to receive equity. "Equity" is a code word for "fairness", "justice", and "the right thing." That concept, which to my knowledge is incorporated in all 50 states and the Federal system, just wouldn't allow you to recover anything for injuries sustained by something that prevents you from accomplishing a rape.

The above are an idea of the legalities there.

The other consideration is that, hey, you try something like that, you deserve what you got.
 
gismo said:
I'm surprised no one has ever developed a tampon like product that's safe for the female user but would impart serious and painful damage to any male components involved in a rape attempt. That wouldn't affect the (only slightly less serious) improper fondling and harassment but I'd think it would go a long way towards reducing rapes.
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...they have.

http://www.thefirstpost.co.uk/2140,news-comment,news-politics,rapex-the-internal-anti-rape-device

Just looking at it is a proper deterrent. :eek:
 
Everskyward said:
So the solution is to keep women out? Should we keep women out of colleges too since rape occurs there?
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Colleges are not places where you forge people in a crucible to be warriors/killing machines. We do try to "professionalize" ourselves as much as possible...but in the end you amped up, hyped up, and looking to do damage after a firefight.....sexual aggression is not right, but a natural outcome.
 
tdager said:
but in the end you amped up, hyped up, and looking to do damage after a firefight.....sexual aggression is not right, but a natural outcome.
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You should have enough self-control not to "do damage" to the folks on the other side, let alone your own associates.
 
tdager said:
Colleges are not places where you forge people in a crucible to be warriors/killing machines. We do try to "professionalize" ourselves as much as possible...but in the end you amped up, hyped up, and looking to do damage after a firefight.....sexual aggression is not right, but a natural outcome.
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wow .
 
Everskyward said:
So the solution is to keep women out? Should we keep women out of colleges too since rape occurs there?
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I agree with your point. This to me is very similar to the question of what situations do we put ourselves in when flying. Let's say you give some relatively new pilot a hot plane that he or she is unfamiliar in, and is more likely to crash. Do we keep that person from flying the plane? Generally not, but we do try to keep that person out of situations that are more likely to induce a crash. Keeping on the ground on bad weather days and out of busy airports and airspace are all good ideas. I generally try to avoid going into hard IMC in a platform until I've gotten some experience with it VFR.

This is not dissimilar, as most teenagers have hormones that don't make them especially well suited for anything involving intervention of their brains. Nobody's saying that women should be kept out of colleges (and I don't think they should be kept out of the military), but that doesn't mean that just letting them into a situation where their enemy might be their fellow soldiers is a good idea. College is not the same as being locked on a sub. Solution? Beats me.
 
Everskyward said:
You should have enough self-control not to "do damage" to the folks on the other side, let alone your own associates.
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Nobody's arguing that, but theory and practice are not always the same.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Nobody's arguing that, but theory and practice are not always the same.
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I would say that since there are already rules against rape that they should be enforced. I don't see anything so complicated or controversial about that. If the military culture is such that rape is condoned then that needs to change. Interesting that the people who have been here defending the status quo have made the military look pretty bad.
 
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