Natural Gas

[Tmpendergrass]

This might be a little off topic but I thinks it's a discussion that needs to be had.

I saw on avweb that Aviat brought a CNG and 100ll powered husky to air venture. They claimed that it is 1gph more efficient than 100ll and costs much less. They showed the figure of a comparable $.85 per gallon for natural gas. Not to mention natural gas bits much cleaner with little to no carbon emissions. I mentioned this to my dad, who has worked in the oil industry for almost 40 years, and he said the US has the potential to become the "Saudi Arabia" of natural gas.

With all this talk about electric power (in both cars and planes) we seem to be overlooking the potential of CNG. Especially since electrical power requires battery technology that is still bleeding edge and requires electricity with is still mostly created by burning coal. CNG requires little modification to use in both cars and airplanes.

Think about how it would change aviation if fuel was under a dollar per gallon!


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[Tmpendergrass]

One thing I should add is that there would have to be some thought put into fuel tank design/location. Wet wings would turn our airplanes into flying bombs.


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[flyingron]

CNG actually has pretty good specific energy (energy per pound) but the energy density (energy per gallon) is pretty poor. It will take about 4 times bigger tanks for the same range.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Also CNG tanks are quite heavy compared to liquid fuel tanks.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

T. Boone Pickens has been talking it up for YEARS. He has a lot to gain by it but that's ok too! Seems it wouldn't hurt to run a truck fleet on it. Deisel is more expensive to buy than gas but cheaper to produce. Please explain! Growing corn for fuel is a real dumb idea and makes food cost a lot more plus the farm subsidies are borne by the taxpayers so they get hit TWICE! ( I could never spell diesel correctly)

 

[Henning]

T. Boone Pickens has been talking it up for YEARS. He has a lot to gain by it but that's ok too! Seems it wouldn't hurt to run a truck fleet on it. Deisel is more expensive to buy than gas but cheaper to produce. Please explain! Growing corn for fuel is a real dumb idea and makes food cost a lot more plus the farm subsidies are borne by the taxpayers so they get hit TWICE! ( I could never spell diesel correctly)

Still didn't lol, it's Diesel, it's a proper noun as it's Otto Diesel's last name.

 

[Henning]

Also CNG tanks are quite heavy compared to liquid fuel tanks.

Not too bad anymore with the composite tanks, makes it potentially a workable situation. However it will take quite a bit of tankage for the same range. Most planes will need to grow some big tip tanks.

 

[James_Dean]

little to no carbon emissions.

IIRC, for commercial power generation, using NG vs. coal yields about 1/2 the atmospheric CO2 emissions per MWh.

 

[JOhnH]

The conversion is already happening, although I would prefer it happen at a faster pace. Many power companies are converting from coal and oil to gas. FPL is even abandoning some nuclear plants in favor of gas. Domestic CNG is one of the reasons the deficit is coming down and why the U.S. is becoming a net energy exporter. Power plants and truck fleets are where we will be seeing the most bang for the buck. Cars will convert faster later after a CNG infrastructure is more in place. I suspect it will be quite a while before we see CNG airplanes, but there has been a lot of impressive advances in Diesel airplane engines.

 

[Henning]

This might be a little off topic but I thinks it's a discussion that needs to be had.

I saw on avweb that Aviat brought a CNG and 100ll powered husky to air venture. They claimed that it is 1gph more efficient than 100ll and costs much less. They showed the figure of a comparable $.85 per gallon for natural gas. Not to mention natural gas bits much cleaner with little to no carbon emissions. I mentioned this to my dad, who has worked in the oil industry for almost 40 years, and he said the US has the potential to become the "Saudi Arabia" of natural gas.

With all this talk about electric power (in both cars and planes) we seem to be overlooking the potential of CNG. Especially since electrical power requires battery technology that is still bleeding edge and requires electricity with is still mostly created by burning coal. CNG requires little modification to use in both cars and airplanes.

Think about how it would change aviation if fuel was under a dollar per gallon!


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Solid carbon emissions, still a hell of a lot of CO2.

 

[denverpilot]

Deisel is more expensive to buy than gas but cheaper to produce. Please explain!

Taxes. Off-road non-taxed diesel is quite inexpensive. So inexpensive it'd never make sense to use CNG, if that were the price at the pump for on-road use.

 

[denverpilot]

The conversion is already happening, although I would prefer it happen at a faster pace. Many power companies are converting from coal and oil to gas. FPL is even abandoning some nuclear plants in favor of gas. Domestic CNG is one of the reasons the deficit is coming down and why the U.S. is becoming a net energy exporter. Power plants and truck fleets are where we will be seeing the most bang for the buck. Cars will convert faster later after a CNG infrastructure is more in place. I suspect it will be quite a while before we see CNG airplanes, but there has been a lot of impressive advances in Diesel airplane engines.

Power companies have almost exclusively used Natural Gas for "peaker" plants out here in the West for as long as I've been alive. Coal for the base load, natural gas turbines for the peak loads. If you get further West, there's a few nuke plants, but nuke plants here were mostly experimental, like Fort Saint Vrain, which was a failure, and now houses a natural gas turbine.

 

[Geico266]

CNG actually has pretty good specific energy (energy per pound) but the energy density (energy per gallon) is pretty poor. It will take about 4 times bigger tanks for the same range.

CNG is good, but propane is much higher.

 

[Geico266]

T. Boone Pickens has been talking it up for YEARS. He has a lot to gain by it but that's. s more expensive to buy than gas but cheaper to produce. Please explain! Growing corn for fuel is a real dumb idea and makes food cost a lot more plus the farm subsidies are borne by the taxpayers so they get hit TWICE! ( I could never spell diesel correctly)

Wrong about growing corn for fuel. Here are the facts.

1. The cost to food in very minimal as most corn is used for livestock feed.
2. Less than 2% of the corn crop goes to fuel production and of that 2% 90% is returned to the feed lot as cow food. The only portion of the corn that is used in ethanol is the sugar.

 

[Geico266]

Taxes. Off-road non-taxed diesel is quite inexpensive. So inexpensive it'd never make sense to use CNG, if that were the price at the pump for on-road use.

Off road diesel is only $.45 a gallon cheaper. I buy a bulk load twice a year for farm equipment.

 

[James_Dean]

Wrong about growing corn for fuel. Here are the facts.

1. The cost to food in very minimal as most corn is used for livestock feed.
2. Less than 2% of the corn crop goes to fuel production and of that 2% 90% is returned to the feed lot as cow food. The only portion of the corn that is used in ethanol is the sugar.

Umm... Not quite. Ethanol will consume > 35% of the corn crop in the US this year. 4.9B of 13.9B bushels. And the DDGS aren't any panacea for animal feed either.

As for the cost in food? You think we just eat those price increases, or you think we try to pass them on?

 

[bbchien]

The diversion of corn from our food stream....was one of the largest blunders we ever made.

 

[Norman]

The diversion of corn from our food stream....was one of the largest blunders we ever made.

Agreed. And we pay for it in higher food prices, subsidies to farmers and ethanol producers, and gas mileage. 10% ethanol drops gas mileage by about 8%. Convince me it's a good deal.

 

[Graueradler]

Still didn't lol, it's Diesel, it's a proper noun as it's Otto Diesel's last name.

I thought his name was Rudolph. Now I'll have to look it up. Still, a point I was considering making until I saw that you beat me to it!

OK, looked it up - Rudolf Christian Karl Diesel

 

[JOhnH]

Wrong about growing corn for fuel. Here are the facts.

1. The cost to food in very minimal as most corn is used for livestock feed.
2. Less than 2% of the corn crop goes to fuel production and of that 2% 90% is returned to the feed lot as cow food. The only portion of the corn that is used in ethanol is the sugar.

Uh, sorry Geico, but I have to call you on this one. Corn for fuel may be good for corn farmers, but you will have to come up with some stronger proof than this to convince me. Even if you did quote a statistic.

Are you a corn farmer?

On the other hand, modern corn is a genetic bastardization that is one of the primary causes of the obesity epidemic in this country and the world. Perhaps the best thing that we can do with this so-called food product is to burn it up in internal combustion engines.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

The only place ethanol makes any sense is Brazil where 80 percent of autos run on it. It's made from sugarcane, NOT corn. It is strictly a political decision here in the states to get the farm vote. It's a very costly mistake to the taxpayer as EVERY gallon is heavily subsidized by.......the taxpayer. Incidentally,the Philippines is very fortunate that a nuclear plant was not involved in the current tragedy! It would be a real disaster!

 

[Graueradler]

Power companies have almost exclusively used Natural Gas for "peaker" plants out here in the West for as long as I've been alive. Coal for the base load, natural gas turbines for the peak loads. If you get further West, there's a few nuke plants, but nuke plants here were mostly experimental, like Fort Saint Vrain, which was a failure, and now houses a natural gas turbine.

A boost for natural gas in a power plant is that a combined cycle gas plant can achieve about 60% efficiency. A coal plant can get a little over 40% and a nuclear plant is a little over 30% (% of heat energy turned into electrical energy).

Combined cycle is where the gas turbine exhaust is used to heat a boiler which then feeds a steam turbine.

 

[Hiperbiper]

Not meaning to diss the God Henning but it's Rudolf Diesel and or Nikolaus Otto. Both engine types were born in the late 1800's.

Not only is turning one's food into fuel a dumb idea (even the second time around) but it's so bad for the land and over-fertilized rainwater runoff is so damaging that no less than the Climate Change Hoaxer-in-Chief Al Gore has called for stopping the process entirely.


Chris

 

[Geico266]

Not meaning to diss the God Henning but it's Rudolf Diesel and or Nikolaus Otto. Both engine types were born in the late 1800's.

Not only is turning one's food into fuel a dumb idea (even the second time around) but it's so bad for the land and over-fertilized rainwater runoff is so damaging that no less than the Climate Change Hoaxer-in-Chief Al Gore has called for stopping the process entirely.


Chris

Oh paleeeze!

Do you really think farmers over fertilize? Try looking at how much fertilizer urban farmer put on their lawn! It is 10 times the rate farmers use.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

The fallacy of running cars on corn is now old news. It's a loser! Move on!

 

[Hiperbiper]

Oh paleeeze!

Do you really think farmers over fertilize? Try looking at how much fertilizer urban farmer put on their lawn! It is 10 times the rate farmers use.

http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/clean_energy/ew3/corn-ethanol-and-water-quality.pdf

People in South Louisiana have been Bi***ing about this for years but alas; todays EPA is told what is and is not considered pollution by the twits in Washington...
Let some poor boob spill a cup of waste oil in a river and his butt is in jail but this??? Nothing to see. Move along.

Chris

 

[James_Dean]

http://www.ucsusa.org/assets/documents/clean_energy/ew3/corn-ethanol-and-water-quality.pdf

People in South Louisiana have been Bi***ing about this for years but alas; todays EPA is told what is and is not considered pollution by the twits in Washington...
Let some poor boob spill a cup of waste oil in a river and his butt is in jail but this??? Nothing to see. Move along.

Chris

I don't think this is very credible. Certainly doesn't jibe with my experience.

 

[Aeric]

Umm... Not quite. Ethanol will consume > 35% of the corn crop in the US this year. 4.9B of 13.9B bushels. And the DDGS aren't any panacea for animal feed either.

As for the cost in food? You think we just eat those price increases, or you think we try to pass them on?

http://news.heartland.org/newspaper...nol-mandates-causing-spiraling-us-food-prices

This is alarming at the very least. Corn is used everywhere you look. Along with being a direct ingredient in everything from many different breakfast foods to sweetener, it's a feedstock. Rising prices of corn (it has tripled since 2006) push up the price of beef, chicken and pork.
Something else rarely discussed is that the price of a commodity rises with demand (as it should). When this happens the demand of said commodity may stabilize or drop, moderating the price increase. However, with the ethanol mandate you can toss that part of the equation out the window. Demand will always be high regardless of the price. Additionally, the price of many other crops rise, caused by increased demand on arable land.
The ONLY people who benefit from this screwy mandate are corn farmers. Everyone else loses...

 

[James_Dean]

http://news.heartland.org/newspaper...nol-mandates-causing-spiraling-us-food-prices

This is alarming at the very least. Corn is used everywhere you look. Along with being a direct ingredient in everything from many different breakfast foods to sweetener, it's a feedstock. Rising prices of corn (it has tripled since 2006) push up the price of beef, chicken and pork.
Something else rarely discussed is that the price of a commodity rises with demand (as it should). When this happens the demand of said commodity may stabilize or drop, moderating the price increase. However, with the ethanol mandate you can toss that part of the equation out the window. Demand will always be high regardless of the price. Additionally, the price of many other crops rise, caused by increased demand on arable land.
The ONLY people who benefit from this screwy mandate are corn farmers. Everyone else loses...

At current prices, it costs me about $0.38 per dozen eggs for feed. At one point this summer it was over $0.60. When I entered the business 20 years ago I remember months it was below $0.20.

Consumption in the US is about 6.5 billion dozen per year you can pretty easily compute the additional costs to the consumer for eggs solely due to feed costs. Now consider that egg production is one of the most efficient converters of feedstock to protein and you can roll that costs through the economy for the rest of the animal protein complex. Think tens of billions at a minimum per year.

 

[Aeric]

At current prices, it costs me about $0.38 per dozen eggs for feed. At one point this summer it was over $0.60. When I entered the business 20 years ago I remember months it was below $0.20.

Consumption in the US is about 6.5 billion dozen per year you can pretty easily compute the additional costs to the consumer for eggs solely due to feed costs. Now consider that egg production is one of the most efficient converters of feedstock to protein and you can roll that costs through the economy for the rest of the animal protein complex. Think tens of billions at a minimum per year.

Short-sighted people don't understand that when they eat beef, chicken, pork, eggs, you name it...they're eating corn.
Either it's economical food or not-so-economical ethanol, you can't have both.
And the impact of ethanol on oil prices, or our dependence on foreign oil? Negligible.

 

[Henning]

Short-sighted people don't understand that when they eat beef, chicken, pork, eggs, you name it...they're eating corn.
Either it's economical food or not-so-economical ethanol, you can't have both.
And the impact of ethanol on oil prices, or our dependence on foreign oil? Negligible.

It's not meant to be a fuel extender, it's meant to be an oxidant to reduce emissions.

 

[James_Dean]

Short-sighted people don't understand that when they eat beef, chicken, pork, eggs, you name it...they're eating corn.
Either it's economical food or not-so-economical ethanol, you can't have both.
And the impact of ethanol on oil prices, or our dependence on foreign oil? Negligible.

The economics of ethanol have changed in the last month and the industry currently is rather profitable without any subsidy or mandatory use. With $4.50/bu corn and $100/brl oil the economics work. I also believe that EPA and the Obama admin are ready to implement E15 further increasing demand.

 

[Aeric]

It's not meant to be a fuel extender, it's meant to be an oxidant to reduce emissions.

The way I remember it being foisted on the public was as both an extender and a "safe" replacement for MTBE as an oxygenate.
With almost all automobiles using oxygen sensors (soon to be effectively all), the oxygenate argument is moot, IMHO.

 

[Henning]

The way I remember it being foisted on the public was as both an extender and a "safe" replacement for MTBE as an oxygenate.
With almost all automobiles using oxygen sensors (soon to be effectively all), the oxygenate argument is moot, IMHO.

As is the fuel extender since you end up using basically the same amount of gas anyway due to reduced economy.

 

[PilotAlan]

The ONLY people who benefit from this screwy mandate are corn farmers. Everyone else loses...

You forgot the politicians who buy their votes with your money, after getting paid by the lobbyists who were paid with the proceeds from your money..

 

[N801BH]

You forgot the politicians who buy their votes with your money, after getting paid by the lobbyists who were paid with the proceeds from your money..

And ADM is laughing all the way to the bank...

 

[Vaflier]

Ethanol is nothing but another farm subsidy. The only thing it has been good for otherwise is the repair shops such as boat repair.

 

[N801BH]

Ethanol is nothing but another farm subsidy. The only thing it has been good for otherwise is the repair shops such as boat repair.

And Ethanol plant manufacturers like Fagen...

Greg Poe was an outstanding airshow pilot but his sponsor is milking the general public of billions.....

Look at all the plants they have built...

http://www.fageninc.com/ethanol.html

 

[txflyer]

The largest irrigated crop in America is the residential lawn.


Getting back to CNG planes. I think one could work with tip tanks. Like another member said, and possibly a tank in the empannage all tied together.

But, obviously, if CNG made perfect sense for planes, Cessna would be pursuing that instead of the heavy diesels. We need a light weight diesel, or affordable turbine in the 300h.p. range that fits in a GA plane.

I'm not an engineer, or an accountant, so it makes no sense to me why someone doesn't go after a secondary replacement turbine for GA aircraft. Could 3D printing make them cheaper? Anything make them cheaper? Why are they so GD expensive?

 

[DJTorrente]

Not too bad anymore with the composite tanks, makes it potentially a workable situation. However it will take quite a bit of tankage for the same range. Most planes will need to grow some big tip tanks.

How well do they hold up under duress? I'd hate to see every garden variety ground loop or runway excursion turn into a fireball. I know that tanks and bladders leak on impact as well, but my impression is that the immediacy and the magnitude of the danger is higher for CNG than 100LL or diesel.

I think we (meaning piston aircraft) are going to have to go to diesel sooner or later because then everyone on the airport will be burning one fuel: JetA. We no longer have the demand to support our own dedicated infrastructure, and the ones burning the volume will get to call the tune -- we're going to have to dance to it or go home.