Did you see email from NASA or just .mil?
NASA/ASRS report consequences
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Did you see email from NASA or just .mil?
Timbeck2
Final Approach
Military with the ASRS attached. Not to my email, the chief controllers email
Larry in TN
En-Route
That is not phraseology that I've heard as a stand-alone instruction. Could you provide the full phraseology used in the instruction that referenced the back-taxi? Used alone, I can see how it could cause confusion. Was it preceded by holding instructions and/or 'Expect'? '
Nothing precludes the reporting party from sharing the report, including sharing with their superiors.
Did you report this as a runway incursion at the time of the occurrence?
Timbeck2
Final Approach
No. I was happy with the apology and acknowledgment of guilt. Hindsight being 20/20….
Timbeck2
Final Approach
Expect was used twice. Even the phrase I hate “be advised “ expect back taxi with tower was used the second time
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
That’s my understanding. Not a NASA ASRS report. But internally so to speak. Same way an Operational Error or Pilot Deviation would be reported. But in the case of Runway Incursion no loss of separation would have to have occurred. They all must be reported. That’s FAA. The OP works at KDMA, an Air Force Base. I don’t know what their rules are. But he may be getting a little flack for not having reported it. I dunno. Who was right and who was wrong wouldn’t be the point as pertains to this.
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Velocity173
It sounds like they thought they were in the right, that’s why they filed the report. Really makes no sense though for mil vs mil. Pretty sure all of our MORs were never sent to the local FSDO. The investigations were done internally at the base with the air group commander dealing out punishment.
It does bring up an important issue though. Say you scold someone over the air but don’t issue the “Brasher.” In the old days you’d call it done and never hear about it again. But today everyone is trying to protect their butts and file NASA forms. If that NASA gets back to a FSDO or someone high in your CoC, they’re gonna wanna know why you didn’t report a PD on them. Can’t win. Just easier to write up everyone these days and let the powers that be sort out the details.
It does bring up an important issue though. Say you scold someone over the air but don’t issue the “Brasher.” In the old days you’d call it done and never hear about it again. But today everyone is trying to protect their butts and file NASA forms. If that NASA gets back to a FSDO or someone high in your CoC, they’re gonna wanna know why you didn’t report a PD on them. Can’t win. Just easier to write up everyone these days and let the powers that be sort out the details.
luvflyin
Touchdown! Greaser!
It wouldn’t have ‘zeroed’ in directly. Would probably go something like this. NASA calls the Air Force and says whadda ya know about this. They probably do it directly to the head ATC dude at headquarters. He then calls the facility where it happened and asks whadda ya know about this. Then they zero in and ask the controllers whadda ya know about this and maybe a why haven’t we already heard about it.
I'm sorry if it sounds like a sermon!
I don't know about the military commanders, but I do know that the FAA (certainly with some exceptions) has migrated from punishment to safety data collection and (possible) retraining. The airlines ASAP program showed the value of getting the mistakes reported outside the cockpit vs keeping things secret. Some have said that ASAP was instrumental in our country's commercial aviation safety record.
For the FAA controllers, ATSAP provided a means of collecting safety data similar to ASAP, and safety trends have been identified and mitigated. So if a controller informs you that a pilot deviation may have occurred, please realize that he/she is just doing what a safety culture is supposed to do. Hopefully the FSDO/CMO person is on board as well.
Lastly, the pilot of the aircraft that has gone out on a runway w/o clearance may have done the same thing at several different airports around the country, each time receiving a stern talking-to by the controller. Without reporting, nobody will know if this is the first time or the fifth. The sixth time could occur just as you are touching down. Nobody wants that.
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Velocity173
Yeah, it’s a kindler gentler military these days as well. They generally use a just culture as well. They still hand out punishments though as they should. Just culture doesn’t mean intentionally violating a rule or multiple unintentional violations. Those perpetrators should be punished.
Unfortunately these days I think just culture is being abused. We have ASRS to save our butts and the controllers have ATSAP. That’s created a massive increase in reporting errors especially OEs on the controllers side. When my brother retired from ATC in 2020 and saw the abuse of the ATSAP process. Even wrote in his resignation letter about witnessing controllers with multiple OEs still keep their jobs. That’s not what just culture was intended for. That’s a system allowing mediocrity under the guise of just culture.
idahoflier
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idahoflier
It sounds like ASRS wasn't the party driving the escalation, it sounds like the AF escalated and provided a copy of the ASRS report that was filed. I doubt this whole situation would have occurred if the pilot had been a private civilian...
GaryM
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Gary M
And now, the 35,000 members of POA.
Larry in TN
En-Route
That removes any ambiguity.
Timbeck2
Final Approach
Okay folks, after some PM's from well meaning friends, I just want to clarify some things.
First and foremost, my post wasn't to discourage ANYONE from filing a NASA/ASRS report. I read posts of folks here filing all the time or encouraging others to file because it is considered a "get out of jail free" card. That it very well may be. I'm not telling anyone not to do it - never my intent.
Second and something I certainly didn't know and it seems others share my ignorance on the matter AND is the real message I wanted to covey. The reports can have consequences IF you declare another party in the report as being at fault. There is no free lunch and if you accuse someone of wrongdoing through official channels, there WILL be questions asked. Some may need to read that last sentence again.
The latter is my case in point. I may very well be asked in the near future, "Why didn't you file runway intrusion paperwork?" My answer will be, "I didn't think it was a big deal." "The crew apologized when they realized their mistake." "I thought the matter was settled."
I didn't expect to not only be blindsided by important Air Force people asking what went on, but for the aircrew to file a report AND accuse my ground controller of approving them on the runway. That just doesn't happen, maybe by a trainee which is quickly corrected by a monitor but certainly not from a rated controller. There is no get out of jail free card for the accused and contrary to our legal system, in ATC, the accused is guilty until proven innocent. After an incident, controllers are not allowed to "plug in" until they have been cleared of any wrongdoing. Other controllers can back me up on this. My and my ground controller's innocence was proven when the recording was played back and a transcript made. I was the watch supervisor, it was my tower and I was the local (tower) controller. They didn't accuse me, they accused my ground controller but I was in charge so I would be equally at fault if he did anything wrong.
For the record, I've seen a lot of dumb things like this happen in my 29 years of controlling and I have NEVER filed any kind of paperwork on any pilot. (Air Force One taxied to the wrong runway once...nope, didn't say a word. I just changed his clearance, climb out and departure frequency.) In this case, I wasn't going to do anything either. In my mind the matter was settled. Folks, I had to google "runway incursion form" and got no usable hits, at least not the form I needed. I had to ask a few questions just to find the form. Turns out, it is the same form one would fill out if we had a loose tread on the stairwell and someone tripped and broke their arm. I have always been able to talk to pilots on frequency or in more serious consequences, give them "a number to call" and things have always been worked out with a good understanding on both parties' account of what went wrong and what we need to do to fix it. However, in this case I have since filed a report at my chief controller and commander's request but never intended to do so. The report is for rebuttal purposes only.
I didn't start this thread to gain sympathy for myself or garner disdain for the crew. I wanted to share a story of how these reports can have consequences if the information in them isn't correct. File a report if you feel you need to, but get your facts right, that's all I'm saying.
First and foremost, my post wasn't to discourage ANYONE from filing a NASA/ASRS report. I read posts of folks here filing all the time or encouraging others to file because it is considered a "get out of jail free" card. That it very well may be. I'm not telling anyone not to do it - never my intent.
Second and something I certainly didn't know and it seems others share my ignorance on the matter AND is the real message I wanted to covey. The reports can have consequences IF you declare another party in the report as being at fault. There is no free lunch and if you accuse someone of wrongdoing through official channels, there WILL be questions asked. Some may need to read that last sentence again.
The latter is my case in point. I may very well be asked in the near future, "Why didn't you file runway intrusion paperwork?" My answer will be, "I didn't think it was a big deal." "The crew apologized when they realized their mistake." "I thought the matter was settled."
I didn't expect to not only be blindsided by important Air Force people asking what went on, but for the aircrew to file a report AND accuse my ground controller of approving them on the runway. That just doesn't happen, maybe by a trainee which is quickly corrected by a monitor but certainly not from a rated controller. There is no get out of jail free card for the accused and contrary to our legal system, in ATC, the accused is guilty until proven innocent. After an incident, controllers are not allowed to "plug in" until they have been cleared of any wrongdoing. Other controllers can back me up on this. My and my ground controller's innocence was proven when the recording was played back and a transcript made. I was the watch supervisor, it was my tower and I was the local (tower) controller. They didn't accuse me, they accused my ground controller but I was in charge so I would be equally at fault if he did anything wrong.
For the record, I've seen a lot of dumb things like this happen in my 29 years of controlling and I have NEVER filed any kind of paperwork on any pilot. (Air Force One taxied to the wrong runway once...nope, didn't say a word. I just changed his clearance, climb out and departure frequency.) In this case, I wasn't going to do anything either. In my mind the matter was settled. Folks, I had to google "runway incursion form" and got no usable hits, at least not the form I needed. I had to ask a few questions just to find the form. Turns out, it is the same form one would fill out if we had a loose tread on the stairwell and someone tripped and broke their arm. I have always been able to talk to pilots on frequency or in more serious consequences, give them "a number to call" and things have always been worked out with a good understanding on both parties' account of what went wrong and what we need to do to fix it. However, in this case I have since filed a report at my chief controller and commander's request but never intended to do so. The report is for rebuttal purposes only.
I didn't start this thread to gain sympathy for myself or garner disdain for the crew. I wanted to share a story of how these reports can have consequences if the information in them isn't correct. File a report if you feel you need to, but get your facts right, that's all I'm saying.
Thread closed per OP’s request.
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