Let'sgoflying!
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Residential
100’ depth
240v
Getting different info, looking for consensus.
100’ depth
240v
Getting different info, looking for consensus.
[NA]waterwell submersibles - repair or trash?
- Thread starter Let'sgoflying!
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jsstevens
The only ones I've had problems with were replaced. There used to be a motor shop here in Orlando that would completely rewind/rebuild motors and were cost effective. The last time I used them was around 1980. It's just not cost effective any more.
To be clear, the work they did was top notch. I think the were better than new. But that was a long time ago!
To be clear, the work they did was top notch. I think the were better than new. But that was a long time ago!
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chartbundle
It's the pulling it that's the giant pain in the ass, I think I'd go with replace to know you won't have to do it again for a while.
denverpilot
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Most places around here won’t repair. They want a brand they know and a warranty if they have to put something new that deep.
Your locals may vary.
Your locals may vary.
Gary
En-Route
How old?
Manufacturer/Model?
What's wrong?
Low pressure?
Low volume?
Trips circuit breaker?
Runs continuously?
No work at all?
Rebuilding is becoming tougher and tougher. They just aren't made that way anymore. As previously mentioned, pulling the pump is the major labor cost. If it's an old pump (old being partially defined by the use and the chemistry of the water, not just years) it may just be better to replace rather than futz with rebuilding. If you are going that route, can't hurt to ask the installer to review the load on the pump to make sure it is sized correctly for your application. I'm partial to Grundfos (https://www.grundfos.com), but that is just personal preference.
Manufacturer/Model?
What's wrong?
Low pressure?
Low volume?
Trips circuit breaker?
Runs continuously?
No work at all?
Rebuilding is becoming tougher and tougher. They just aren't made that way anymore. As previously mentioned, pulling the pump is the major labor cost. If it's an old pump (old being partially defined by the use and the chemistry of the water, not just years) it may just be better to replace rather than futz with rebuilding. If you are going that route, can't hurt to ask the installer to review the load on the pump to make sure it is sized correctly for your application. I'm partial to Grundfos (https://www.grundfos.com), but that is just personal preference.
Gary
En-Route
Assume for residential use? The variable frequency pumps are pretty cool and high tech. That being said, the tried and true submersible with the standard pressure tank and pressure controls are very reliable and relatively inexpensive. Unless you have a unique application, the variable frequency is likely over-kill.
450 foot well!!! That's impressive!!!
Its residential. Domestic use and maybe 3/4 acre irrigation. There is no problem with the conventional pump. Its just that the home is 18 years old and we have lots of residue in the water, so one of these days, the pump is going to croak. When it happens, I would like to have an idea what the options are.
They couldn't find enough iron and sulfur in the shallower aquifers ;-)
455 Bravo Uniform
Final Approach
If it’s a Grundfos, they are rebuildable and modular.
Unless I was doing it myself, I’d let the well guy buy me a new one.
Unless I was doing it myself, I’d let the well guy buy me a new one.
455 Bravo Uniform
Final Approach
VFD moreso if you have constant flow but varied volume needs.
Gary
En-Route
Ahh Yes - can't beat the bouquet and tangy taste of iron and sulfur in your drinking water!
I was thinking about bottling it for sale as 'Eau de Old Faithful'.
Usually the reducing bugs only get into the preheating tank on the hot water side and I can just backwash that system with a 65gal poly tank a small pump and some bleach. Once or twice I had the bugs all the way back into the well and I had to chlorinate everything.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Think he’s talking about the iron eating bacteria that add to the sulfur thing. Many wells get them and chlorine “shocking” the system removes most of them for a while.
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Snorting his way across the USA
Generally submersible motors are not rated for inverter duty. Modern 12 pulse VFD's are better than 6 pulse, but a 12 pulse will probably not be cost effective for a residential well. Both will eat submersible motors over time.
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Snorting his way across the USA
We consider small (anything under 25 hp) Grundfos style subs to be replacement items.
Thermophilic bacteria that reduce sulfate (SO4) that is naturally occurring in wellwater from some aquifers to hydrogen sulfite (H2S). Sulfate is fairly harmless, H2S is what makes water smell like rotten eggs. To get rid of the rotten egg smell you have to disinfect the well or the water heater with 10ppm or more of chlorine, usually by adding some pool bleach and flushing the system. If you are also on a septic system, you don't want that bleach to go into your sewage as it can upset the balance of bacteria in your treatment system. So you end up flushing a lot of wellwater into your yard while treating the well. It's just labor and $5 in bleach.
Some sacrificial anodes in water heaters can also create hydrogen sulfide. But that won't go away with a chlorination.
I thought those systems come as a pair. A controller and a pump that can handle the varying speed.
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SoonerAviator
I can't imagine a VFD being of any use in a residential system. The pump kicks on and fills the pressure tank and then kicks off when the pressure comes back up. Aside from watering the lawn or drawing a bunch of consecutive baths/showers, the system sits idle. The VFD system would be kicking on almost every time you turned the kitchen faucet on for 20 seconds, the conventional wouldn't kick on until you've drawn down your pressure tank to whatever level. I'd think the energy cost for running a VFD system would pretty much kill any savings you'd have elsewhere, not too mention VFD's just being less dependable in general due to the control box/hardware components.
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I'm not familiar with packaged systems like that, and if they are available, they are a lot smaller than anything I deal with. We love VFD's in pump stations. Controls become a little complicated however when multiple pumps are involved. You like the pumps to be sized equally, ramping up and down together, coming on line and dropping off as needed for the flow range.
I was recently involved in a project where the district had a pump station that consisted of ten 100 hp fixed speed turbine pumps. They had retrofitted one of the pumps with a VFD, and it didn't work out very well, as they had a flow condition where they were short cycling the VFD. We ended up retrofitting two more pumps with VFD's, and changed the control strategy to rotate the pumps, and that solved the problem.
This is the kind of system I am thinking about :
https://us.grundfos.com/products/find-product/sqe.html
https://www.aquascience.net/products/pumps-tanks-well-components/goulds-propak
I dont have a problem with the current system. It seems to work well and even while the irrigation is running I can take a shower without losing pressure. I believe it delivers about 15gpm, but I never had a reason to get fancy and measure recovery rates etc. So far so good, never had a problem running the sprinklers or toppping off the pool.
Those VFD systems are three-phase pumps. I haven't looked at the wiring, the current one is your standard 240V single phase, so it would probably a new cable run to the well and down to the pump.
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I live on city water as a well driller
For a 3HP pump, the difference in price between a single phase Gould stainless and the VFD combo seems to be about $1200. Make it $2000 with some additional labor and wiring during a retrofit. That's not much of a difference on a 20 year item.
Kenny Phillips
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Kenny Phillips
There are COTS controllers that will run small 3-phase motors off of 220 VAC single phase; we use them to run Bridgeports!
Chip Sylverne
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Quit with the negative waves, man.
I think Franklin manufactures just about all pump motors. The differences are in the impeller. I just replaced an inexpensive farm store 1.5 hp pump after 20 years of farm service. After pulling it I found one of the wires started to chafe through due to torque friction on the well casing. . Easy repair but the stainless case had started to corrode, so I went ahead and replaced it with another one from Lowes, about $450. With a farm, we can't be without water. Also a Franklin motor. Plastic impeller, but my water is really acid, so probably just as good.
The way to go is to find a rental joint that has electric pump pullers. Makes it soooooo much easier. I did it alone.
The other thing I installed you might consider is a cycle stop valve. It's a constant pressure valve at the pressure tank that maintains 50 psi or whatever you set without cycling the pump on and off. Pump comes on once, shuts off once. Fewer cycles, less wear on the pump motor. Shower head pressure never changes, even if somebody flushes the toilet or the bride turns on the washer or dishwasher.
Niiiiice.
This is the valve I installed
https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/csv1a-installation-instructions
The way to go is to find a rental joint that has electric pump pullers. Makes it soooooo much easier. I did it alone.
The other thing I installed you might consider is a cycle stop valve. It's a constant pressure valve at the pressure tank that maintains 50 psi or whatever you set without cycling the pump on and off. Pump comes on once, shuts off once. Fewer cycles, less wear on the pump motor. Shower head pressure never changes, even if somebody flushes the toilet or the bride turns on the washer or dishwasher.
Niiiiice.
This is the valve I installed
https://cyclestopvalves.com/pages/csv1a-installation-instructions
Zeldman
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My well is 750 feet. My neighbor about a mile away has a 1500 feet well. Funny part is my water is a lot better tasting than his.
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jsstevens
With deep well submersibles, how is the pump water delivery connected? With the shallow wells we have here (Florida. My last well was 80' deep but the pump was only 40'.) it's simply 20' stalks of rigid steel pipe coupled together down the well. We pulled the pump with a come along and disconnected the first stalk of pipe and kept pulling. But 450' of 3/4 rigid would be a lot heavier...
According to the locals, the 'best tasting' water is from a shallow well. We have some gravelly areas of the county where a 15ft hole gets you water. I think the correct word would be 'slightly filtered effluent', but apparently it tastes good
.
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Well, yes, there would be a new cable run but you're pulling the pump anyway. The other thing you want to look at the length of the wiring run. VFD cables have limitations in length due to harmonics and inductive losses.
Shallow water usually does taste best its usually slightly acidic..domestic needs to work even during a drought. Cycle stop valves have uses and downsides. Drives are a new thing for water well pumps. I never pump a well more than 75% yield. When i install a one horse power 20 gallon per minute pump its 20gpm at 50ft of lift at 50 psi a massive amount of water. Best of luck if its drinking water hire a pro.
Gary
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I'm sure a VFD system would work just fine for you if properly installed. That being said, I doubt you would see any increased reliability or any long term cost savings by doing so. The VFD systems shine in applications where flow is constant, but volume varies. I don't have definitive data, but would guess that your conventional on/off pressure switch system spends 80%+ of the time off. Sounds like what you have works fine for what you need. In that case, would seem that "keep it simple" would prevail.
PaulS
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For the OP, I would buy new, not rebuild. My pump is at about 120 feet, the well pumped over 20 gpm when put in. The pump is 23 years old and going strong. It runs an in ground sprinkler system. I am expecting it to go someday.
That's the direction I am leaning. Its simple, the components can be picked up at any plumbing supply. My experience with HVAC systems has taught me that long term maintainability can gets more difficult the more complicated and proprietary the system gets. If 10 years in some 'module' or 'board' smokes, there is no guarantee that the manufacturer still has a compatible replacement.
Unless someone tells me a compelling reason why it should be a VFD, its probably going to be a single phase pump if the current one goes.
PaulS
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I'll tell you my philosophy on this stuff. If the parts for it aren't on the repair guy's truck, I really don't want it.
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Snorting his way across the USA
A lot of companies make submersible pump motors. Franklin is a big manufacturer of submersible well pump motors, but Hitachi is pretty common too. We normally spec Franklin or Hitachi for subs. For vertical turbine lineshaft driven pumps, it's usually either GE or US Motors.