[NA] Toyota Highlander Hybrid?

Greebo

Greebo

N9017H - C172M (1976)
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Retired Evil Overlord
Having some NEW issues with my car. Now considering the Highlander Hybrid.

Anyone got any personal experience with it?
 
I think I want one, but availability is an issue.

I want to replace my 97 Jeep Grand Cherokee with something hybrid. I still need SUV functionality (space, limited off-road capability), but I'd like something better for the environment.

However, I called several dealers back in April.

One said he was already sold-out with deposits for the entire model year.
Another said he would call me - hasn't done so yet.
A third said he'd sell to the highest bidder - above MSRP - as soon as they hit his lot.

I'm thinking that I'll need to nurse the Jeep through another year, and think about it again next year.
 
Chuck,

It seems the dealers are getting a HUGE premium on hybrids. A friend of mine checked into Ford Escape Hybrids and they are asking $10K more than the regular model. If you amortize the extra cost of purchase over your time of ownership for the vehicle, it may not make sense economically, i.e. the extra cost offsets the gas savings. Now if you want to buy it for purely an enviromental reason, that's a different story.
 
Anthony said:
Chuck,

It seems the dealers are getting a HUGE premium on hybrids. A friend of mine checked into Ford Escape Hybrids and they are asking $10K more than the regular model. If you amortize the extra cost of purchase over your time of ownership for the vehicle, it may not make sense economically, i.e. the extra cost offsets the gas savings. Now if you want to buy it for purely an enviromental reason, that's a different story.
Click to expand...

It seems to me that the extra financial costs are outweighed by any fuel savings claimed by the automakers. Maintaining two power systems would likely cost more over the life of the vehicle as well. I have not been able to find any data on the environmental costs of manufacturing and disposing of the extra elements of a hybrid vehicle; batteries, electric motors, fluids, etc.

There is no doubt that the technology is top flight. I just question whether hybrid tech is the right way to go. Or is this whole thing a more marketing hype than solution?
 
Don't forget there's a $2000 tax credit on hybrid vehicles if you take delivery before then end of this year, making the price difference less. The credit is reduced to $500 in 2006. In the Rocky Mountain region the wait list is currently about a year and a half for the Highlander.

My girlfriend just picked up a Prius last week. Averaging 52 mpg so far.

Jon
 
Being a rather big guy, the Hybrid SUV (Toyota only, Lexus is too expensive and Ford...well I won't buy USA manuf vehicles again) is my preference.

MD is supposed to have no sales tax and teh $2000 credit is also a consideration. If I can get a reasonable deal on one, I'll go for it. If not, it will be conventional I guess for me.
 
Anthony said:
Chuck,

It seems the dealers are getting a HUGE premium on hybrids. A friend of mine checked into Ford Escape Hybrids and they are asking $10K more than the regular model. If you amortize the extra cost of purchase over your time of ownership for the vehicle, it may not make sense economically, i.e. the extra cost offsets the gas savings. Now if you want to buy it for purely an enviromental reason, that's a different story.
Click to expand...

Given the costs and complexity, I think right now environmental reasons would have to be the prime driver for me if I were to look at one of these, which I would if I could afford them. The folks buying them now are basically beta testing them for the future, when I think they'll become the standard, and prices will come down drastically.

Thanks, guys!! :)
 
4CornerFlyer said:
Don't forget there's a $2000 tax credit on hybrid vehicles if you take delivery before then end of this year, making the price difference less. The credit is reduced to $500 in 2006. In the Rocky Mountain region the wait list is currently about a year and a half for the Highlander.

My girlfriend just picked up a Prius last week. Averaging 52 mpg so far.

Jon
Click to expand...

Big deal, my 1978 Honda Civic 1200 got that, and it ran like a beast. It's ridiculous that with hybrid technology (electric accelleration boost and regenerative braking is the way I would go) we should be getting less than 62mpg in a city commuter car, and that brings up my big quandary, why are the hybrids being built with gasoline engines rather than diesel? This is just plain stupid. What I would like to do is build a diesel electric car (or truck) using 36v DC motors (each drive wheel is actually its own motor) a battery bank and a diesel genset that comes up to charge the batteries and add regen braking to that. This allows you to always operate the engine at peak efficiency. Another advantage I forsee to this is that the system is easily upgraded to up and coming fuel cell technology when the H2 finally comes on line.
 
Hrmm, I was just reading on the US Department of Energy's "Alternative Fuels" website and they claim that batteries must be replaced every 3-6 years. I would look into this for the car(s) you're looking into and if it's true, make sure you include this "maintenance" in your annualized costs - as I imagine these batteries aren't cheap...
 
inav8r said:
You could nickname it the "locomotive"! :yes:
Click to expand...

Sure, my only modification to current D/E tech is using batties so I don't need as big of a genset.
 
inav8r said:
Hrmm, I was just reading on the US Department of Energy's "Alternative Fuels" website and they claim that batteries must be replaced every 3-6 years. I would look into this for the car(s) you're looking into and if it's true, make sure you include this "maintenance" in your annualized costs - as I imagine these batteries aren't cheap...
Click to expand...

I'll be highly surprised if they get more than 3 years out of the batteries. You can bet that changing the battery bank will cost you >$2000.
 
inav8r said:
I would look into this for the car(s) you're looking into and if it's true, make sure you include this "maintenance" in your annualized costs - as I imagine these batteries aren't cheap...
Click to expand...
I would also assume they aren't particularly environmentally friendly.
 
Henning said:
I'll be highly surprised if they get more than 3 years out of the batteries. You can bet that changing the battery bank will cost you >$2000.
Click to expand...

Reportedly, the Prius is getting at least 3 years.
 
MSmith said:
Reportedly, the Prius is getting at least 3 years.
Click to expand...
Is this the same Prius that reportedly just stops functioning at highway speeds?

I'm with Joe. Interesting technology but I really don't see the cost benefits right now.

I drive a Ford F250 Diesel extended cab. I'm told that with a $200 filtering kit, I can actually run the truck on recycled vegetable oil. How much emissions do you suppose vegetable has? It's cheap, too. I've read some interesting stories on the technology along with some anecdotal evidence saying it's rather effective.
 
MSmith said:
Is this a personal question?

For me, depends on the vegetable in question. :D
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Doh...ok...ya got me.

Vegetable OIL.

That's what I get for not paying attention to work right now...sigh.
 
I wasn't picking on your typo - I just thought it was funny.
 
Brian Austin said:
I drive a Ford F250 Diesel extended cab. I'm told that with a $200 filtering kit, I can actually run the truck on recycled vegetable oil. How much emissions do you suppose vegetable has? It's cheap, too. I've read some interesting stories on the technology along with some anecdotal evidence saying it's rather effective.
Click to expand...
I've been peeking into this a bit, but need to do a bunch more research. I'm driving a Cummins diesel, love the Ford trucks, but the only way I could get the Cummins was in a damn Dodge shipping container... :) The little bit I've read about the biodiesel seems to indicate that it's only a 10-20% additive, right? and that the mileage goes down with the biodiesel? On the other hand, I guess smelling like french fries isn't all bad... :)
 
gkainz said:
I've been peeking into this a bit, but need to do a bunch more research. I'm driving a Cummins diesel, love the Ford trucks, but the only way I could get the Cummins was in a damn Dodge shipping container... :) The little bit I've read about the biodiesel seems to indicate that it's only a 10-20% additive, right? and that the mileage goes down with the biodiesel? On the other hand, I guess smelling like french fries isn't all bad... :)
Click to expand...
Biodiesel and pure vegetable oil is different. Biodiesel is an additive, like you noted. The conversions I'm talking about are used vegetable oil, taken straight from a restaurant, filtered and added to a bypass tank.
 
Brian Austin said:
Is this the same Prius that reportedly just stops functioning at highway speeds?

I'm with Joe. Interesting technology but I really don't see the cost benefits right now.

I drive a Ford F250 Diesel extended cab. I'm told that with a $200 filtering kit, I can actually run the truck on recycled vegetable oil. How much emissions do you suppose vegetable has? It's cheap, too. I've read some interesting stories on the technology along with some anecdotal evidence saying it's rather effective.
Click to expand...

I have no problems with vegy oil in a diesel, I used to run a Genset on fryer oil. You won't get quite the power/mileage, but it's close enough. As to getting away from fossil and onto renewable, it is a big step in the right direction, and as for pollution there are some good things to say about it as well. However, as to carbon emmissions and global warming, it is no real improvement. In actuality, it is no new tech. During WWII the government "shelved" its prohibition on Hemp (which origionally was instituted thru the "lobbying" efforts of the oil companies) because of the wartime need of the fiber and the oil, and commericial grade hemp grows easily and nearly anywhere. You can also run your diesel on flax oil or fish oil, or whale blubber oil...and many other fuels. You can even run them on natural gas or hydrogen and shoot them just a tiny bit of liquid fuel as an ignition source. Shoot, they're a veritable Dispose-All for fuels. I always just filter my waste oil and add it to my fuel tanks on boats for disposal, take note though, the fuel gets centrifuged on its way to the engine.

There is really so much old technology that was way ahead of its time in metallurgy and machining ability, and a lot of technology was set aside because it interfered with large companies profits.
 
4CornerFlyer said:
My girlfriend just picked up a Prius last week. Averaging 52 mpg so far.

Jon
Click to expand...


Unimpressed. I got that in a 2001 Golf TDI (diesel turbo-direct-injection engine). It hauled booty too. Passed other cars on the freeway without downshifting out of 5th gear. Even at 9k feet elevation the little sucker booked.
 
Re: diesel/biodiesel; was [NA] Toyota Highlander Hybrid?

Brian Austin said:
Biodiesel and pure vegetable oil is different. Biodiesel is an additive, like you noted. The conversions I'm talking about are used vegetable oil, taken straight from a restaurant, filtered and added to a bypass tank.
Click to expand...
now that I didn't know... just assumed that they were same-same...
 
Re: diesel/biodiesel; was [NA] Toyota Highlander Hybrid?

gkainz said:
now that I didn't know... just assumed that they were same-same...
Click to expand...
The grease guzzlers use a tank of standard diesel fuel for starting and to liquify the vegetable oil, which is held in a separate tank. The oil is filtered to remove pieces of chicken wings and old oyster breading, and then burned by itself. Typically there is also a siphon pump included in the conversion package. You pull up to a mom&pop greasy spoon and ask if you can take some of the waste they pay to have hauled away. Odds are they say yes. You suck out the oil and are on your way, with nothing but the savory smell of french fries in your wake. Anecdotal evidence I've heard says the chain fast food restaurants won't let you take it but pretty much anyone else is happy to give it to you. I know a guy locally who drove his converted Mercedes to from Orlando to Atlanta on $4 of diesel.
 
Re: diesel/biodiesel; was [NA] Toyota Highlander Hybrid?

gkainz said:
now that I didn't know... just assumed that they were same-same...
Click to expand...
We use biodiesel here in AZ, primarily because our refineries for diesel are in CA. I've noticed a 2mpg reduction but I'm not sure if it's due to heat (about the same time as biodiesel season comes around) or increased use of a/c.
 
Greebo said:
Having some NEW issues with my car. Now considering the Highlander Hybrid.

Anyone got any personal experience with it?
Click to expand...

Never buy the first model year of anything..!!

I have a 2002 V6 AWD Limited Highlander and I'm very, very happy with it (other than tire wear). However, the hybrid option brings the sticker to something around $40K, not including dealer markups due to demand. Not worth it...unless you are buying it for social responsibility vs. savings...and even then...read very carefully some of the articles that are out there.

Greg
182RG
 
Greebo said:
Being a rather big guy, the Hybrid SUV (Toyota only, Lexus is too expensive and Ford...well I won't buy USA manuf vehicles again) is my preference.

MD is supposed to have no sales tax and teh $2000 credit is also a consideration. If I can get a reasonable deal on one, I'll go for it. If not, it will be conventional I guess for me.
Click to expand...

As a former suburban owner I thought I'd never be saing this but I like a Mazda. I had a 95 suburban K 1500 and loved it but it was a company truck (I was an owner) and we got strapped for cash and had to sell it. Making a long sotry short, the Volvo we had was jus too small and I started looking. Thought I wanted a Honda CRV but it too, lacked leg room. When looking at a used CRV at a Mazda dealership I noticed the 2001 tribute sitting next to it. Sunroof, leather, 6 disk cd and about 5 grand less than the Honda. I took it for a drive and was surprised. I had to move the seat foward. It had as much room for the rear passenges as my Suburban and the cargo area in he back was adequate. The middle seats are removeable for even lager loads. Sure it won't tow a huge load, but it gets 21 mpg around town and 28 on the highway. (far above the EPA estimates) The downside is, it's basically a ford. (ewwwwwwwwww)

The firestone tires, I really dont like. And its a 2 wheel drive, I'd have liked a 4 but they didn't have a used one.
 
Well its a done deal.

Some background - some of you will recall a few weeks ago I posted about my Lexus and its $6,000 laundry list of things wrong with it.

I'd decided, at the time, to milk another year out of it.

Until we got back from Orlando on Sunday and the battery had been drained, AGAIN, by some fault with the electrical system that, when the moon was in the wrong phase and the sun in the 35th to 45th azimuth on certain days starting with T, the battery drained out.

Then the next morning it needed ANOTHER jump.

So I called the bank, got approval, did some calling around, and found a dealership with 2 Toyota Highlander Hybrids (4X2's) on the lot. Left work early, went looking, and the Blue was already claimed so we went for the white after a test drive which was very impressive.

Now its in my driveway, mine mine mine. Pretty much given the demand on these things, haggling was out, but we got the remaining amount owed on the Lexus (~ $6,900) which, considering the list of work to be done on it, was about $6,000 more than *I* would have said it was worth. All in all, we're satisfiied with the deal.

Now - some details on the Hybrid system and specifically, the warranties:

3 yr/ 36k bumper to bumper
5 yr/ 60k drive train and corrosion
8 yr/100k on the hybrid system (motor, battery)

At this time batt replacement would cost approx $4k, but in 8 years (which would be when we had to pay to replace it), it should be much less (due to availability). The demand for these things is VERY high.

Next step, getting lojack installed.

Yay new cars. (But...this means a bit longer before I own a plane - which I'm getting to be ok with because I just don't fly enough to really justify it right now anyway.) :)
 
Henning said:
Batteries are highly recyleable.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. However, there are costs associated with proper recycling of lead/acid batteries. I have yet to see a dialog about those costs as relating to the hybrid hype. Do you have any data?
 
Big Bird said:
Absolutely. However, there are costs associated with proper recycling of lead/acid batteries. I have yet to see a dialog about those costs as relating to the hybrid hype. Do you have any data?
Click to expand...

Actually, lead acid batteries are fairly economical to recycle/rebuild. Heck, you can buy a 27 series car battery from the rebuilders for $20, and they're still making money.
 
Henning said:
Actually, lead acid batteries are fairly economical to recycle/rebuild. Heck, you can buy a 27 series car battery from the rebuilders for $20, and they're still making money.
Click to expand...

I don't think were talking about 27 series car batteries here. That's why I have been asking; just what are the "true" (hidden) costs for these new vehicles? I haven't found much discussion about environmental, maintenance, system complexity, etc.

I believe that the added purchase cost for a Highlander or Lexus Hybrid, greater systems complexity, battery replacement costs, battery recycling costs, etc, is never going to be recovered by the minimal fuel savings offered by these vehicles.

They do scoot along, tho! :D
 
Guys...

READ my most recent post in this thread prior to this one.

I just provided details about current replacement costs and warranty info from Toyota on the Highlander.

In city, the Highlander Hybrid gets (reportedly) about 10 mpg better than the non hybrid. (In highway its more like 1mpg-2 mpg more cause of the extra engine use).

I'm keeping a close watch on my own MPG from fillup to fillup, only I'm still on the first tank and am not counting this one since I wasn't the sole driver for 12 miles of it. :)
 
Greebo said:
Until we got back from Orlando on Sunday and the battery had been drained, AGAIN, by some fault with the electrical system that, when the moon was in the wrong phase and the sun in the 35th to 45th azimuth on certain days starting with T, the battery drained out.

Then the next morning it needed ANOTHER jump.
Click to expand...

I didn't know that Lexus used British electrical systems.

Len
 
Greebo said:
I'm keeping a close watch on my own MPG from fillup to fillup, only I'm still on the first tank and am not counting this one since I wasn't the sole driver for 12 miles of it. :)
Click to expand...
Chuck,

Keep me posted on how you like it. I've got a 2000 Dodge Durango with 85,000 that I'll be replacing next year. I'm interested in the Hilander Hybrid.

Congratulations on the new vehicle.
 
Big Bird said:
I don't think were talking about 27 series car batteries here. That's why I have been asking; just what are the "true" (hidden) costs for these new vehicles? I haven't found much discussion about environmental, maintenance, system complexity, etc.
Click to expand...
That's true, the Toyota Prius, for example uses Ni-MH, not Lead-Acid Batteries.
 
Keep in mind that it'll take a few fillups before the batteries are fully charged and conditioned. You won't see real mileage numbers for a while.
 
If I remember correctly, the batteries for Toyota hybrids are basically just a pack of 1.5 cells - a whole lot of C or D-size cells lined up to total the voltage required.

I don't think they're in there loose like a flashlight - they're probably soldered together. But it really is about like that.
 
Greebo said:
Guys...

READ my most recent post in this thread prior to this one.

I just provided details about current replacement costs and warranty info from Toyota on the Highlander.

In city, the Highlander Hybrid gets (reportedly) about 10 mpg better than the non hybrid. (In highway its more like 1mpg-2 mpg more cause of the extra engine use).

I'm keeping a close watch on my own MPG from fillup to fillup, only I'm still on the first tank and am not counting this one since I wasn't the sole driver for 12 miles of it. :)
Click to expand...

Greebo,

I did READ your post, and it detailed the price premium you paid for the Highlander, "reported" mileage, and warranty information. It did not respond to the question regarding costs associated with operating two propulsion systems, maintaing same, and disposing of expendables.

I do not "knock" the hybrids. My wife wants a Highlander and, as I stay out of her decision, we'll probably have one in the garage before long. I merely questioned the LACK of data regarding the afore mentioned "hidden" costs.

Well, we're off to Costa Rica for a few weeks of driving "dirty" diesels
:D and a rental 182, so I'm a moving target. Hot and wet down there right now, just what the doctor ordered! B)
 
Big Bird said:
Greebo,

I did READ your post, and it detailed the price premium you paid for the Highlander, "reported" mileage, and warranty information. It did not respond to the question regarding costs associated with operating two propulsion systems, maintaing same, and disposing of expendables.
Click to expand...

Greebo said:
At this time batt replacement would cost approx $4k, but in 8 years (which would be when we had to pay to replace it), it should be much less (due to availability).
Click to expand...
That $4k (today) would be the end user cost.

The maintenance plan, by the way, for the hybrid is pretty much the same as for a non-hybrid. I saw nothing on my initial scan of the long term maintenance plan that suggested any new regular adjustments/replacements were required.

The warranty info provided DOES contain some suggestive information, however, that I think you're overlooking. An 8 year warranty *suggests* to me, anyway, that the manuf. EXPECTS the electric motor and battery system to last for at LEAST 8 years before major repairs are required. After all - since when do auto manuf's warranty stuff beyond the period they EXPECT it to last? :)
 
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