[NA]Toyota engine[NA]

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
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west Texas
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Dave Taylor
The 2003 4Runner has 28000mi on it and is smoking!
When you goose the pedal slightly, it emanates blue smoke from the exhaust. The tailpipe is sooty, black inside. First noticed Friday.

I called the dealer (we have the Platinum, or best, warrantee) and they said bring it in.

Any ideas on how to best present my case?
I think the rings are likely leaking oil past, or maybe some valves.
We have our maintenance schedule completely up to date. It does not appear to be using much oil, and the oil was not reported as being very dark last time.
What should I ask them to do? Pull plugs, inspect - compression check.

What I'd like to avoid is being sent on my way, "its fine, just watch it" and then be stuck later (physically, or out of warrantee).
 
Just do what some of us do that dont know a thing about engines. Tell them exactly what you see, hehe.
 
Does it smoke while the engine is accelerating (when you step on the gas) or decelerating (after you release the gas pedal)
 
Dave, have them start with a cylinder leak down test. This test will show where you are losing compression.
Also, Joe is spot on with his questions as they will help the technician with the diagnosis.
​
 
Climb a hill, does it smoke? Likely valve guides/seals. Go down the hill; does it smoke? Likely rings.

How is your fuel mileage? same as/worse than? If worse than, likely fuel system. No "Check Engine/Service Engine Soon"? Then it really is mechanical. Whatever you do, don't take "no" in all its variants, for an answer.

Best of luck on this
 
Repeat after me:

"It's not fine. It's smoking. Y'all need to make it not smoke. It's just that simple. Thank you."
 
It is hard to believe that a Toyota moter is burning oil at 28,000 miles. I have a 1982 with 70,000 and it is fine. I have had 2 with over 200,000 and they were fine???? Maybe is is black smoke from the mixture being too rich?
 
Eamon, Dave knows the difference, trust me. And yes, even Toyota can have a dud from time to time, but they are pretty aggressive about correcting them. One wrinkle: In Texas, and several other southern states, Toyotas are not actually sold or supported by Toyota at all, but rather, by Gulf States Toyota, Inc., of Houston. While they generally track what Toyota wants them to do, they are not bound by it (and neither is pricing, which can vary quite a bit!).

===

MOST important, Dave: ensure that the complaint is documented very specifically on the work order you get, and that you save it; the Texas lemon law is keyed on repeated failed efforts at correction of fundamental problems, and many dealers are very savvy about taking your complaint about such issues verbally, and not documenting it, making subsequent exercise of your rights difficult.

I did have to take Toyota to task a couple of years ago, when the engine on a Celica blew at, I kid you not, 320 miles. They claimed it had been abused, and warranty was void; first offered to repair engine at "discount" of only $6,900.00. They came around, handled it in the end.

Keep us posted.
 
Thanks,
can a catalytic converter do anything like this? I know it can make an exhaust stinky I mean stinkier when it s not working but this is like those 25 yr old pickups that come up from Mexico!
 
jshawley said:
.....................Likely valve guides/seals. ....................Likely rings.
Click to expand...

oh, goody. Such cheery news. :(
Do they usually "patch them up", or "new engine"?


We are at 5000' so rich mixtures are common, but this is entirely new.

I'm sorta afraid they will lean it out enough to eliminate the visible oil smoke, thus disguising the problem.... for a while.

Do they usually provide a loaner?
I have bought a few cars from them.
Thanks
DT
 
Spike/Dave, here is the lemon law summary for Texas:

[SIZE=-1]4 repair attempts or 30 days out of service. 2 repair attempts for a serious safety hazard.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1]Warranty period or 1 year

http://www.carlemon.com/lemons.html

Dave, since you mentioned "platinum" warranty, I have to assume you mean an extended service contract. I will also assume you are outside the warranty parameters supplied with the vehicle. If my assumptions are accurate, the state lemon law will not apply.
[/SIZE]​
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
oh, goody. Such cheery news. :(
Do they usually "patch them up", or "new engine"?


We are at 5000' so rich mixtures are common, but this is entirely new.

I'm sorta afraid they will lean it out enough to eliminate the visible oil smoke, thus disguising the problem.... for a while.

Do they usually provide a loaner?
I have bought a few cars from them.
Thanks
DT
Click to expand...

Dave, first off rich mixtures are not normal. The fuel injection system has a barometric pressure sensor which adjusts for high altitude. The airflow sensor tells the computer how much air is going into the engine and the computer calculates the correct amount of fuel.
As for the smoking, I would bet valve seals. It is the most common failure we see. Don't know how they will go about fixing it, but with 28k on the clock I doubt they will put a new engine in it, but rather patch it up which sucks. Good luck, hopefully you won't need it.
Don
 
Kevin is correct; I failed to note that the car was a 2003 model. This does not, of course, excuse them from complying with the manufacturer's warranty.

The cat con will not create blue smoke.

Give them a chance to do the right thing- then let's see if anything further is necessary. Manufacturer's will often cover marginal items like this, if the failure is not a blatant example of customer abuse. If they don't, well, the new Chevys are pretty sweet.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
The 2003 4Runner has 28000mi on it and is smoking!
When you goose the pedal slightly, it emanates blue smoke from the exhaust. The tailpipe is sooty, black inside. First noticed Friday.

I called the dealer (we have the Platinum, or best, warrantee) and they said bring it in.

Any ideas on how to best present my case?
I think the rings are likely leaking oil past, or maybe some valves.
We have our maintenance schedule completely up to date. It does not appear to be using much oil, and the oil was not reported as being very dark last time.
What should I ask them to do? Pull plugs, inspect - compression check.

What I'd like to avoid is being sent on my way, "its fine, just watch it" and then be stuck later (physically, or out of warrantee).
Click to expand...

They'll plug in the computer. What has most likely happenned is that one of the sensors has gone bad, and the engine in order to protect itself has gone into its "Full Rich, Full Retard" default mode. It's most likely going to be an electronic problem rather than a mechanical one. Let them do the warantee thing on it.
 
something has surfaced which makes us suspect bad gasoline. The tank is pulled and will see what happens with a fresh load. Dealer is so far away, and this sounded quite possible so we are ruling that out first. Thanks.
 
If that turns out to be the case, be sure that they replce the catalytic converter, too!
 
The smart money remains on contaminated fuel: Removed and flushed tank, inserted 60$ of premium unleaded. Poof, no more blue smoke, no more knocking, no more hesitation (which almost nailed my wife yesterday when it nearly stalled entering the highway).
I have submitted a well documented claim with Town and Country, lets see how they handle it. Did you know it costs $300 to drop the tank, flush the system, reinstall everything at the local shop?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
inserted 60$ of premium unleaded
Click to expand...

Just something to keep in mind...On the next tank of fuel save yourself some money and go with the 87 octane. The 4th generation Toyota 4Runner lists it in the owners manual. If there is no knocking or pinging go with it. Premium will just cost you more money at no performance or mileage gain.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
The smart money remains on contaminated fuel: Removed and flushed tank, inserted 60$ of premium unleaded. Poof, no more blue smoke, no more knocking, no more hesitation (which almost nailed my wife yesterday when it nearly stalled entering the highway).
I have submitted a well documented claim with Town and Country, lets see how they handle it. Did you know it costs $300 to drop the tank, flush the system, reinstall everything at the local shop?
Click to expand...

Hmmmm, sounds like diesel mixed in:eek: Had a few owners accidentally put in diesel, ran exactly how you describe.
Don
 
jesse said:
Just something to keep in mind...On the next tank of fuel save yourself some money and go with the 87 octane. The 4th generation Toyota 4Runner lists it in the owners manual. If there is no knocking or pinging go with it. Premium will just cost you more money at no performance or mileage gain.
Click to expand...
If a vehicle is tuned for 87 octane it will actually get worse milage when using premium. Preimium actuall has less energy per gallon then regular.
 
jesse said:
Just something to keep in mind...On the next tank of fuel save yourself some money and go with the 87 octane. The 4th generation Toyota 4Runner lists it in the owners manual. If there is no knocking or pinging go with it. Premium will just cost you more money at no performance or mileage gain.
Click to expand...

Kinda sorta. You won't get ping regardless. New engines have knock sensing devices that will automatically retard timing and enrichen the mixture to prevent pinging. Using higher octane fuel OTOH will allow the timing and mixture to be set at more optimum levels(if more optimum levels are applicable to that engine). So it really depends on several factors if it is worthwhile.
 
JRitt said:
If a vehicle is tuned for 87 octane it will actually get worse milage when using premium. Preimium actuall has less energy per gallon then regular.
Click to expand...

What you say about the caloric content of the fuel is correct, the tuning part really doesn't hold true in a modern computerized engine because the engine is being constantly tuned to the information being provided by multiple sensors. The way I go about it: 8.5:1 or less compression N/A engines get 87 oct.. Above that or supercharged gets 89 octane unless I want best performance, then I get premium, or racing fuel so I can (let the computer) optimize the ignition advance and mixture.
 
Henning said:
Kinda sorta. You won't get ping regardless. New engines have knock sensing devices that will automatically retard timing and enrichen the mixture to prevent pinging. Using higher octane fuel OTOH will allow the timing and mixture to be set at more optimum levels(if more optimum levels are applicable to that engine). So it really depends on several factors if it is worthwhile.
Click to expand...
The owners manual lists 87 octane. Therefore you are going to get the best performance out of 87 octane. Unless of course he rebuilt the engine, increased the compression, and added a turbo.
 
jesse said:
The owners manual lists 87 octane.
Click to expand...

The owners manaul for our Fords not only list 87 octane, but go on to say that using higher octane fuels can cause hard starting and rough operation in cold weather.
 
Dave,

FWIW, my Dad's car went through the same thing your vehice is doing. Same symptoms and fix. However, a month later the car lost power and had to be towed to a repair shop. The cat converter was plugged and had to be replaced.

James Dean
 
James_Dean said:
FWIW, my Dad's car went through the same thing your vehice is doing. Same symptoms and fix. However, a month later the car lost power and had to be towed to a repair shop. The cat converter was plugged and had to be replaced.
Click to expand...

*snork* I was on a long trip in an old beater Jetta I owned, and the telltale rattling in the cat told me the converter was dead. I was about 400mi from home, and I hoped it would get home. No dice, some of the matrix came loose, plugged the exhaust somewhere further on down, the car would barely hold 40mph with the pedal on the carpet.

Then the gasket between the manifold and cat blew, and I could maintain highway speed the rest of the way home. Full manifold back Techtonics tuned exhaust went on, sounded better, ran much better.
 
Dad used to have a Buick with the same issue. About once a month, a few well placed hits with a baseball bat to the converter would break up the clogged matrix enough to regain exhaust flow. :)
______________________________________
Jeff
El Paso
 
James_Dean said:
my Dad's car went through the same thing your vehice is doing. Same symptoms and fix. However, a month later the car lost power and had to be towed to a repair shop. The cat converter was plugged and had to be replaced.
Click to expand...

I have not signed anything to release them and probably won't even if a check arrives, I still have concerns. Think I should hold out for a new motor like they did after the Ca contaminated fuel AD?
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Corporate says to expect a check in 8-10 days; we'll see!
Click to expand...

Glad you got it figured out, and that the stalling didn't leave Janet in a bad situation entering that highway.

Check from Toyota? Why? The bad gas wasn't their fault. Curious why they'd cover that. If you put molasses in the tank and it gummed up the works, they wouldn't cover you, I'm sure. Why contaminated fuel?
 
I think it is the fuel supplier paying, Tango Whiskey..
 
Fly, I did, to Austin from Dallas Love (DAL), in the back of a supremely nice Beech King Air 350. Not a terribly bad way to travel, says I. Weather was mostly IMC on the way down, with ceiling reported 900, but a lot more like 500 or so.

Coming back, it was fun to watch the pilot's skill at radar usage, as he threaded the needle quite nicely 'twixt two cells.


I'd look good in such a plane, I surely would.
 
SCCutler said:
Fly, I did, to Austin from Dallas Love (DAL), in the back of a supremely nice Beech King Air 350. Not a terribly bad way to travel, says I. Weather was mostly IMC on the way down, with ceiling reported 900, but a lot more like 500 or so.
Coming back, it was fun to watch the pilot's skill at radar usage, as he threaded the needle quite nicely 'twixt two cells.
I'd look good in such a plane, I surely would.
Click to expand...

mmmmm, sounds like a nice trip -next time doan be bashful, elbow your way into the right seat!
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
mmmmm, sounds like a nice trip -next time doan be bashful, elbow your way into the right seat!
Click to expand...

Funny thing, as I sat there and watched the pilot at work, I pictured you in the Conquest, doing all the same stuff. Bet you're as good.
 
"Paid in Full"
bonus 25$ Gift Card as well.
Car running great.
check stub said something like, "Final Settlement". I didn't sign anything and there was no provisio below the endorsment area of the check..so I wrote in, "Will advise if any engine damage is noted" below my sig.
:)
 
"Final Settlement" on the stub is unlikely to be effective release; explicit language like (say) "Negotiation constitutes full and final payment of all sums due and owing" or the like might succeed, but even then, it is not likely, especially in a consumer context.
 
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