[na]I accidentally told a coworker what I make[na]

[JOhnH]

I suppose it was a guess, but it was the only obvious answer.

All I meant was that you had the right answer without any "inside" information.

 

[Sociald]

When one of my reports says “so and so makes such and such so I should make more” it doesn’t help them one bit. It makes my life more miserable dealing with them, but it doesn’t change their salary. Since I’m not a douche, I’m already fighting to get those that deserve it what they deserve. The one complaining is probably not producing as much. And if I were a douche, it still wouldn’t help.

Agreed.

I have an overall budget to maintain, but other than that I get zero pressure from management to pay my people as little as possible. If I'm not fighting for someone to get the best possible pay raise, there's probably a very good reason.

Where I do get pressure is to keep my folks highly productive, motivated, engergized, and very very well trained. And I spend a ton of money doing that.

I buy that. I guess my history of having jobs where everyone can easily figure it out has desensitized me to it all and keeps me fairly ignorant to how things work in non-union corporate America. There is also general mistrust, for good reason, between the workers and management in my industry.

 

[Ravioli]

 

[cowman]

I used to work as a programmer at a big company, the areas we wrote code for included payroll and accounting. We did our software testing with a copy of the real database and as a consequence knew exactly what everyone made. It was never an issue that I recall. I also can say that, despite this company's many many shortcomings they didn't pay men and women any differently. None of us had anything to brag about.

I can see the arguments for and against keeping it secret. Some people seem to take income as a measure of self-worth and get jealous or insecure over it. There's always the phenomenon of people trying to make you feel bad for being successful in life. OTOH if it's all secret how do we know if we're getting a raw deal or not?

For me personally I wouldn't care outside of the worry that some other person would make a big deal out of it.

 

[CJones]

I used to work with a guy that interviewed for and was offered a promotion. He gave them a number for what he wanted for salary. They said "that's more than anyone at that level makes, and it's more that some people at the next level make!". His response was - "It's not my fault that all those other people suck at negotiating pay raises." He ended up staying in his current position where he didn't have to deal with the massive increase in headaches that the new role would have put in his lap for a very marginal increase in pay.

 

[mryan75]

All I meant was that you had the right answer without any "inside" information.

I knew that, I wasn't being argumentative.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

At my company the rule used to be that there was a pay ceiling.
Folks in positions that dictate a higher salary achieve that via a generous bonus structure.

We have a lot of people that have worked here for 20+ years and I suspect still fall into that structure.
I once had a lower level tech quit because he found a better paying gig.
Our VP of ops asked "Why did he quit?" I said "He found a job paying X." which was not a high number. She replied "I wish I made that much".
She is a VP of 28 years and should be making double what he left for.

So either she was stating that in jest or she is still a part of that old school system. She commented recently that bonuses will be sparse this year and she lives and dies by her bonus so I suspect there are folks that don't get a base above that old ceiling.

This is what bothers my by this incident. It is plausible that my base is higher than someone that outranks me.
I feel slightly less stupid then when I posted and also suspect his response was probably a bit of a joke. This VP was formerly a contractor that we were paying a contract rate that was very high. I can't imagine he would have converted below that old ceiling in favor of a bonus. I don't know anyone that would nowadays.

 

[mryan75]

I used to work with a guy that interviewed for and was offered a promotion. He gave them a number for what he wanted for salary. They said "that's more than anyone at that level makes, and it's more that some people at the next level make!". His response was - "It's not my fault that all those other people suck at negotiating pay raises." He ended up staying in his current position where he didn't have to deal with the massive increase in headaches that the new role would have put in his lap for a very marginal increase in pay.

I took one of those positions with a massive increase in headaches for a marginal increase in pay. It taught me a lot of things. I've since moved to a different role with a lot less day-to-day stress for essentially the same pay and am much happier. It didn't take 6 months for the new manager of my old department, the one who took over my position, to come to me with help for the same things I'd been trying to tell the people above me for years could not be improved. It made me so, so glad hat I had moved on. Good luck.

 

[Half Fast]

I disagree. High achievers don't need motivation. They motivate themselves. That's why they're high achievers.

.

Gotta disagree here as well. You don't fire all of them, you fire one of them. If that doesn't cure your morale problems, there is a reason you have morale problems. And whatever that problem is is your core issue, not the morale problems themselves.

Largely true, and why the de-motivating factor to the average performers is a much greater factor.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Br"y"an......do you happen to work for the gummint?

 

[Crashnburn]

Kept her and told everyone else that if they want her kind of money they can have it, if they do the job as well as she does. They will either resent her or step up, or both. Either way he wins.

Tell everyone in the office the beatings will continue until morale improves.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Br"y"an......do you happen to work for the gummint?

I work for a furniture distributor. It is the best job I have ever had.
The owners are brothers that inherited the business when their father passed away and they are incredibly kind and everyone is treated like family.
We got lots of warehouses and trucks and boxes. We use the trucks to move the boxes out of the warehouses. Super simple job.

I make sure the I.T. guys don't scare anyone else. Its fun.

Edit: And I have taken 2 of my co-workers flying and there are more people asking to go up.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

sounds like a real moooooving experience....

 

[NoHeat]

I make sure the I.T. guys don't scare anyone else. Its fun.

Edit: And I have taken 2 of my co-workers flying

Hmm. If I wanted to avoid scaring my co-workers, the last thing I'd think of is taking them flying. But that's just me.

 

[Rushie]

Good guess.
I called the new employee into the office to discuss it with her, and she became indignant, then started complaining about the policy, then started crying. It was sort of a mutual decision to let her go.

One thing I remember telling her while she was complaining about the policy was that this was an example of why the policy existed in the first place.

One outcome was that I never had another problem (that I heard about) of employees discussing salaries. And over the next year, I did give the deserving employees nice raises, but that had nothing to do with this situation. In fact, I almost deferred those raises because of this situation.

I agree with Ted and Salty, it sounds like the right decision, based on her reactions:

*Indignant

*Complaining

*Crying

I wouldn’t have dreamed of doing any of those things. The only correct response is an apology, and a pretty profuse one at that. If you want to keep your job! And crying is totally female manipulation. I would NEVER pull that on a boss! Maybe my husband once in a blue moon...

 

[CJones]

I work for a furniture distributor. It is the best job I have ever had.
The owners are brothers that inherited the business when their father passed away and they are incredibly kind and everyone is treated like family.
We got lots of warehouses and trucks and boxes. We use the trucks to move the boxes out of the warehouses. Super simple job.

I make sure the I.T. guys don't scare anyone else. Its fun.

Edit: And I have taken 2 of my co-workers flying and there are more people asking to go up.

Shhhhh!!!! Logistics is much more complicated than just moving brown boxes in and out of warehouses! Don't let the secret out or I am hosed! I've built a career off of people 'knowing' that Logistics (and its accompanying systems) is super complicated.

 

[Ted]

Shhhhh!!!! Logistics is much more complicated than just moving brown boxes in and out of warehouses! Don't let the secret out or I am hosed! I've built a career off of people 'knowing' that Logistics (and its accompanying systems) is super complicated.

And I've built a career off of looking like this at people who are convinced aircraft certification is easy:

 

[Zeldman]

And crying is totally female manipulation.

Yeah, it hasn't worked for me since I was 3 years old....

 

[Kenny Phillips]

And I've built a career off of looking like this at people who are convinced aircraft certification is easy:

Love that picture. And I've also built a career on the same thing ...

 

[Ravioli]

This is what bothers my by this incident. It is plausible that my base is higher than someone that outranks me.

I'm certain it is.

Case in point: when buying top Engineering grads the company must outbid the other potential companies. They NEVER say, oh, you've been here 5 years, so we need to up your pay because the puppies cost so much.

Also, from personal experience, I never received a promotion at that company that did not a) reduce my total annual compensation or b) keep pace with the green beans they were after. I was making ~45k in 1996, walked out for consulting and doubled my income with the stroke of a pen. Never looked back.

This might be the corporate slut in me coming out... chose your loyalty. Security or Compensation. Most people do far better by jumping, even laterally, at the cash. Else you get into the x% raise per year sounds great, right?

 

[Palmpilot]

I agree with Ted and Salty, it sounds like the right decision, based on her reactions:

*Indignant

*Complaining

*Crying

I wouldn’t have dreamed of doing any of those things. The only correct response is an apology, and a pretty profuse one at that. If you want to keep your job! And crying is totally female manipulation. I would NEVER pull that on a boss! Maybe my husband once in a blue moon...

My reaction to her reaction would depend on whether she was informed of the policy before the disclosure and whether it was proven (or admitted) that she had disclosed it instead of the coworkers finding out through other means.

 

[JOhnH]

My reaction to her reaction would depend on whether she was informed of the policy before the disclosure and whether it was proven (or admitted) that she had disclosed it instead of the coworkers finding out through other means.

It was on the one page employment agreement she signed, and it was in the employee handbook.
But most people sign the agreement without thoroughly reading it, even though they are asked to read it prior to signing.
And she said she skimmed the handbook but had not really read the whole thing yet.
And she did finally admit to "accidentally" disclosing her salary, because she was proud of it.

I have probably had to fire about a dozen people over 20 years and I remember and feel bad about all of them, even if they gave me no choice. But this one I felt particularly bad about because she was so new and probably didn't realize how serious that rule was. I'm sure she learned a good life lesson though.

One thing I am sure of though; the reaction of the rest of the staff reinforced in my mind the importance of the rule. A small business can't afford to pay everyone the same high salary. But everyone thinks they are deserving of a higher salary.

 

[Ravioli]

And she did finally admit to "accidentally" disclosing her salary, because she was proud of it.

Sounds like a clean kill. As the legal community would say, "ignorance of the law..."

But everyone thinks they are deserving of a higher salary

And therefore the "secrecy" expected in the professional ranks, with or without a written corporate rule.

[And don't get me started on the number of times I've dismissed people whose defense was "is there a rule about that?" EX: Should the corporate manual say you cannot joust with tow motors, or is it enough that we expect vehicles to be operated in a safe fashion?]

 

[TCABM]

...A small business can't afford to pay everyone the same high salary...

No business can afford to do that. It’s tough in the corporate world to enforce standards.

 

[Ted]

This might be the corporate slut in me coming out... chose your loyalty. Security or Compensation. Most people do far better by jumping, even laterally, at the cash. Else you get into the x% raise per year sounds great, right?

And then you get into other complexities such as where you live and how much you care about moving (assuming you have to live where your job is). For me a new job has meant moving, but it depends on what industry you’re in or skill sets you’re peddling.

At my last company, we had a division in the Bay Area (California) and nobody stayed more than a few years. Mostly got vesting in the 401k and left for the bigger paycheck.

I’ll also add that job security is largely an illusion and the realities of it depend a lot on the specific company you’re working for. My first job out of college was for a company that tended to lay off a bunch of people and then hire back whoever depending on the needs of that day. Sustainable growth? What’s that? They’re still doing it today.

 

[Half Fast]

The root of the problem:

 

[jsstevens]

The root of the problem:

View attachment 80757

Well, it IS in Lake Wobegone...

 

[Zeldman]

But this one I felt particularly bad about because she was so new and probably didn't realize how serious that rule was. I'm sure she learned a good life lesson though.

The school of hard knocks is a tough teacher, but I would bet to say that she took company rules and policies seriously after that. It might have saved her later on from making that mistake at another job that she really wanted to stay at.

 

[Unbeliever]

Good guess.
I called the new employee into the office to discuss it with her, and she became indignant, then started complaining about the policy, then started crying. It was sort of a mutual decision to let her go.

One thing I remember telling her while she was complaining about the policy was that this was an example of why the policy existed in the first place.

Good thing for you she didn't know that the termination was an illegal one and your "don't discuss salaries" policy is also illegal.

The right to share your salary info (amongst non-management) is protected by the National Labor Relations Act of 1935. "Pay Secrecy" policies are illegal at the Federal Level, and several states have strengthened those protections.

 

[JOhnH]

Good thing for you she didn't know that the termination was an illegal one and your "don't discuss salaries" policy is also illegal.

The right to share your salary info (amongst non-management) is protected by the National Labor Relations Act of 1935. "Pay Secrecy" policies are illegal at the Federal Level, and several states have strengthened those protections.

You might be right. I'm not a lawyer and never pretend to be.

But this employee was on a state sanctioned probationary period and during the probationary period, I can fire for any reason or no reason, except discrimination.
The actual reason for firing probably had less to do with disclosing her salary than it did her actions in my office while we were discussing it. I hadn't planned to fire her when I called her in.

 

[Palmpilot]

The actual reason for firing probably had less to do with disclosing her salary than it did her actions in my office while we were discussing it. I hadn't planned to fire her when I called her in.

This kind of goes together with the fact that 28 years of mea culpas have apparently kept me from getting any pilot deviations on my record (so far).

 

[Rushie]

The actual reason for firing probably had less to do with disclosing her salary than it did her actions in my office while we were discussing it. I hadn't planned to fire her when I called her in.

This kind of goes together with the fact that 28 years of mea culpas have apparently kept me from getting any pilot deviations on my record (so far).

Her reaction in the office revealed things about her character or personality that foreshadow future problems.

 

[Sociald]

Most people do far better by jumping, even laterally, at the cash. Else you get into the x% raise per year sounds great, right?

This is one of big downsides to the aviation world. Very few jobs can we just leave and expect to get the same level of benefit.

 

[Ghery]

When you fly a Grumman, it doesn't matter what you make.

You say you fly for Iran?

My lawyer had no problem telling me what he makes per hour...

And I have no problem telling clients and potential clients what I charge per hour for consulting work.

As a retired person, the issue doesn't affect me directly, but it's interesting to learn about aspects of the situation that I hadn't been aware of.

And that's the most important point. I'm basically retired, too, and it's the best "job" I've ever had.

 

[PaulMillner]

Closest I came to your situation was when one of my reports saw me googling what the SS max was and took a guess based on the time of the year it was. He was wrong, but it was still uncomfortable.

when I was a young engineer, the old timers would try to freak out the youngsters by opening their check, and sighing... "thank god I'm done with social security for another year!" Best if done in February or March!

 

[RudyP]

I'm certain it is.

Case in point: when buying top Engineering grads the company must outbid the other potential companies. They NEVER say, oh, you've been here 5 years, so we need to up your pay because the puppies cost so much.

Also, from personal experience, I never received a promotion at that company that did not a) reduce my total annual compensation or b) keep pace with the green beans they were after. I was making ~45k in 1996, walked out for consulting and doubled my income with the stroke of a pen. Never looked back.

This might be the corporate slut in me coming out... chose your loyalty. Security or Compensation. Most people do far better by jumping, even laterally, at the cash. Else you get into the x% raise per year sounds great, right?

For many positions at publicly traded companies above a certain level, you give up a lot of unvested equity doing that though. That can mean giving up multiples of one’s annual comp (many multiples of my annual cash comp) in unvested stock. Some employers will give you a starting grant that matches what you are leaving on the table to make you whole but not all.

 

[NHWannabe]

This is a good point. My direct deposit amount is pretty nice, but not as nice as it would look if I didn't max out my 401k and pay for health insurance.

Same here between 401K max and catch up, health insurance, max out the HRA and max out the ESPP my take home could look a lot better.

 

[Crashnburn]

Yes, and the future value of your nest egg probably looks better because you max out today, than if you don't. If my employer offers a match to my 401k, whatever is required to get the full match is my minimum 401k deduction.