[NA] Health Insurance. US vs. Elsewhere

Texas passed limitation on medical liability claims as well as a brief statute of limitations on filing suit several years ago. Has made not a whit of difference on slowing the rise in cost. Malpractice as a driver is a canard.
I remember that. It was called the "tort reform" bill and was going to be the greatest thing since....whatever. I told my wife it wasn't going to make any difference in health care costs in TX. Unfortunately I was right. Supposedly it reduced the cost of medical malpractice insurance and the claims paid by those insurers. As long as health care is a for profit business we will never get medical costs under control in this country. You can take that to the bank!
 
When there are a high percentage of no pays it is difficult to calculate true cost. The system has 4 prices, a true cash price negotiated with the provider, an private insurance price negotiated with the private insurance companies with a the Medicare / Medicaid price mandated by the govt., and the dumb ass price for those who earn too much for Medicaid and without insurance or cash. Each has its own default calculation built in or a cost transfer between the groups for the dead beats.

This is spot on and the contracted rate that insurers have with providers/hospitals etc is always the highest reimbursement. In Fee for Service reimbursement from highest to lowest
Private Insurers
Medicare
Medicaid
 
I remember that. It was called the "tort reform" bill and was going to be the greatest thing since....whatever. I told my wife it wasn't going to make any difference in health care costs in TX. Unfortunately I was right. Supposedly it reduced the cost of medical malpractice insurance and the claims paid by those insurers. As long as health care is a for profit business we will never get medical costs under control in this country. You can take that to the bank!

Actually if people just took care of themselves the cost of healthcare would decrease significantly. We are the most obese nation on the planet and that leads to really bad health outcomes, 10% of the US population has diabetes and another 25% are pre-diabetic.
 
While not particularly challenging to understand, socialism has ideological/politcal and fluidly sociological definitions where capitalism is purely an economic system.
I'd take it a step further, and suggest that "capitalism" has changed meaning to fill a void for an opposite to socialism. When people say "capitalism", they really usually mean free markets, not specifically the separation of the function of raising capital from that of operating a company (as became especially common in the early 19th century). Free markets long predate that — you'd find them in a bazaar 3,000 years ago.

In the end, no one these days has genuinely free markets, because they're all government-regulated even if they're not government-run. And no one (not even Cuba or Venezuela) has genuine pure socialism either. It's all a complex blend. The loud, dogmatic political warriors want us to think otherwise, because they need a marching song to rally the troops (Dem, GOP, or whatever). While the U.S. model has obvious differences from, say, the Swedish model, it's hard to argue either is really "left" or "right" of the other (the Swedes have a bigger social-safety net than the U.S., but they're also bigger supporters of free trade and private enterprise; go figure).
 
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Texas passed limitation on medical liability claims as well as a brief statute of limitations on filing suit several years ago. Has made not a whit of difference on slowing the rise in cost. Malpractice as a driver is a canard.
Yes, exactly. It's partly excessive administrative overhead, and partly inflated costs (nowhere else in the world could a retired surgeon afford a private jet, like Dick Karl has been writing about in Flying).
 
Think of the utility space. There are both privately and publicly owned utilities, and, generally speaking, the publicly owned companies provide better service at lower cost to the consumer than the privately owned ones.

Off topic for this off-aviation topic but…

As we saw here in Texas last February, a power system which chose to isolate itself so as to avoid Federal requirements revealed the reason those requirements are there in the first place. As a tie-in to aviation, a good amount of our initial training and, I’d say a majority of our Flight Reviews (and certainly a lot of time airline pilots spend in ongoing training, from what I gather) is to be ready for the 1% situations. Skip all the training for that and, sure, costs go down and profits go up - until something happens.

Still off topic but I’m not sure I can think of when a “privatized” government function saved me money. Privatized camping reservations at National/State parks, toll roads, etc. It MAY save taxpayers overall (less retirement benefits, etc for civil servants) but from a consumer perspective, it’s not saving money. Your utilities example may be a case, but only if they can deliver during hard times too.
 
Every time I go to the DMV I think "and morons want these people in charge of healthcare."
I've had better experiences at the DMV than I have with the asinine healthcare broker (which shouldn't even be a thing) I had to use when in university. My partner was on massHealth for a while and while the whole enrollment process was crazy (in the middle of COVID so everything was crazy) it was much better than my BCBS insurance.
 
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It MAY save taxpayers overall (less retirement benefits, etc for civil servants) but from a consumer perspective, it’s not saving money.
I would love to see some actual lifetime studies on this. My prior is that it would essentially be a wash. Still have to pay the private companies to pay for their employees' healthcare, retirement benefits etc. While those benefits tend to be worse/cheaper than civil service pensions and healthcare, you throw on increased wages of private industry compared to government (I somewhat recently finished up my PhD and while job hunting looked at some of the NASA centers, let's just say the salary was a joke compared to private industry), profit margin, and of course the need for executive compensation and I wouldn't be at all surprised that the "money saving private industry" turns out to be just as expensive as keeping it in the civil service. Not to mention you still would have to have some civil service to administer and monitor the private industry and ensure they are doing what they are supposed to be doing, and then all the bureaucrats in the private industry itself to run the program. Would be interesting to see numbers and different examples though.
 
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I'm retired and paying myself for healthcare. I have 3 kids, successfully launched, who have top notch health care paid fully by the corporations they work for. They get HSA accounts to pay for the copays which the companies fund also.


I look at the calls for socialized healthcare and I think to myself, who pays for it? In Bryan's example, he is paying in total, rounded, $1,800 a month. That's pretty much what it costs now for a family for insurance. If socialists get their wish and private companies are taken out of the equation, then this massive bill must be paid, the companies will no longer be able to offer this perk. I don't care what anyone says, the government will not be nearly as efficient as the companies offering it now. So what will happen? Some type of 'health tax' to cover this cost, which will have to be at least the $1,800 per month, probably much more, to cover what people get now.

It won't go well, it will be like any other socialist endeavor, once it is railroad through there will be accolades, a lot of back slapping and cheering. After about 5 years reality will start settling in and it will be too late to fix it.
 
Every time I go to the DMV I think "and morons want these people in charge of healthcare."
Thankfully, that's not the choice. Doctors in Ontario are mostly self-employed, hospitals are mostly non-profits run by community boards, and walk-in clinics and medical labs are mostly private companies. They all bill OHIP, but the government doesn't make the individual healthcare decisions — they just set the rates and pay the invoices.

The only time I step into a government office for healthcare is when it's time to renew my OHIP card (every 5 years, IIRC).
 
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I have Federal BC/BS. $440/ month plus $100 for a good dental plan to cover family of three. I get to keep the plan in retirement, if I choose. It is not as good as with my previous employer but that situation was an anomaly.
I am happy enough.
 
Actually if people just took care of themselves the cost of healthcare would decrease significantly. We are the most obese nation on the planet and that leads to really bad health outcomes, 10% of the US population has diabetes and another 25% are pre-diabetic.

Everyone still dies in the end. It is end of life stuff that takes medical costs exponential. Both of my parents were very healthy until the last 5 years of their lives. Both had numerous events in their last years that drove multi-day hospital stays, rehab, in-home nursing, etc.
 
I have 3 kids, successfully launched, who have top notch health care paid fully by the corporations they work for.
Unfortunately, in some ways, they’re now indentured servants of those companies, especially if they or their families have pre-existing conditions. If they quit or get laid off, at best they have much more expensive insurance for a while via COBRA until they get rehired.

As a military retiree I don’t have that worry. My “go to h#ll” threshold is much lower since I don’t need to worry about going bare. Plus several of my peers were in a tight spot when our company cut a lot of senior leadership positions and they weren’t old enough for Medicare but too old to be as competitive in the job market as before.
 
Every time I go to the DMV I think "and morons want these people in charge of healthcare."

Out of curiosity, what level of genius do you want to staff and pay for, to key in the license plate for your boat trailer, all day, every day, ad infinitum?

I appreciate the idea of "minimum viable employee" at those desks, and one manager on the floor in possession of "the brain" that can be passed around for those unusual cases. It seems efficient to me.

(I've found only very competent employees in my DMV interactions, so I've felt that we likely overspent in those states, for those employees :D )
 
Out of curiosity, what level of genius do you want to staff and pay for, to key in the license plate for your boat trailer, all day, every day, ad infinitum?

I appreciate the idea of "minimum viable employee" at those desks, and one manager on the floor in possession of "the brain" that can be passed around for those unusual cases. It seems efficient to me.

(I've found only very competent employees in my DMV interactions, so I've felt that we likely overspent in those states, for those employees :D )

Actually, I've found the people working at the DMV here very intelligent, knowledgeable and capable. They are attentive and want to help. The problem is the bureaucracy they are forced to work in. For example, you can look up on line the wait times at a particular office, at least you used to be able to do this. I get to an office and find you need to get a number to get service. I get in line, it takes over an hour to get a number. From that point, it says there is a 45 minute wait, which is pretty accurate. Guess what gets reported as a waiting time? One example of many.
 
Actually, I've found the people working at the DMV here very intelligent, knowledgeable and capable. They are attentive and want to help.
LOL, you and I must not go to the same DMV. The one nearest me is nothing but a clown show!
 
Thankfully, that's not the choice. Doctors in Ontario are mostly self-employed, hospitals are mostly non-profits run by community boards, and walk-in clinics and medical labs are mostly private companies. They all bill OHIP, but the government doesn't make the individual healthcare decisions — they just set the rates and pay the invoices.

The only time I step into a government office for healthcare is when it's time to renew my OHIP card (every 5 years, IIRC).

A number of years ago, my father in law needed back surgery. He went to Lahey Clinic here in Massachusetts, was in a room in 2 other patients who got the same type of surgery. He chatted them up, turns out they were from Canada. They told him that the wait for the surgery they needed was over 9 months in Canada, I forget the details of where they were from. This was a condition where you could barely walk without the surgery. They said they were lucky and could afford to come to the US to get it done.
 
LOL, you and I must not go to the same DMV. The one nearest me is nothing but a clown show. :)

I've never run into a clown show, but you need to be attentive to the details of what you have to have before you get there or it certainly would feel like a clown show. The thing is there are some dumbass rules and steps you need to go through that make no sense. The people at the counters just shrug their shoulders and say sorry, but rules is rules.
 
I've never run into a clown show, but you need to be attentive to the details of what you have to have before you get there or it certainly would feel like a clown show. The thing is there are some dumbass rules and steps you need to go through that make no sense. The people at the counters just shrug their shoulders and say sorry, but rules is rules.
Oh, I always try to have my ducks sorted before getting there in hopes of speeding up the process, but it has never seemed to work that way. A lot of the workers just sit around with their finger up their end and take their sweet time completing the simplest of tasks. I always allot half a day when going there, because it’s almost impossible to get in and out in less than an hour or two. YMMV
 
Oh, I always try to have my ducks sorted before getting there in hopes of speeding up the process, but it has never seemed to work that way. A lot of the workers just sit around with their finger up their end and take their sweet time completing the simplest of tasks. I always allot half a day when going there, because it’s almost impossible to get in and out in less than an hour or two. YMMV

It tremendously depends on the municipality you're dealing with. In the Atlanta area, I generally deal with Cobb and Bartow counties. Both are managed fairly efficiently. For a brief period, I lived inside the city limits of Atlanta and the word "efficient" didn't apply.
 
Unfortunately, in some ways, they’re now indentured servants of those companies, especially if they or their families have pre-existing conditions. If they quit or get laid off, at best they have much more expensive insurance for a while via COBRA until they get rehired.

As a military retiree I don’t have that worry. My “go to h#ll” threshold is much lower since I don’t need to worry about going bare. Plus several of my peers were in a tight spot when our company cut a lot of senior leadership positions and they weren’t old enough for Medicare but too old to be as competitive in the job market as before.

Bingo. And #oof, have you spot my tell. (Btw don't tell my "employer", but the quickest way they could get rid of me in a VSP/RIF is taking my healthcare retirement benefit away...not my compensation, like they legitimately currently think is my inflection point).

46 years old to attaining my "FU position"(<-NSFW warning). Could have done better/quicker as a EU citizen, but we don't pick the lemons we're pelted with. At any rate, after that age, it's sayonara for Uncle Hindsight and hello part-time laboring on MY terms. Labor arbitrage to 64.9 is for the birds.

You've already covered what my retort to that poster would have been, so I'll digress. Virtue signaling about "top notch" employment-status-dependent healthcare is the opposite of a win, in my life.

Cheers.
 
LOL, you and I must not go to the same DMV. The one nearest me is nothing but a clown show!

Move!

Some are. In NYC, getting your driver's license renewed was a whole day affair . In ND and WV I can go by the DMV on the way to work and pick up some tags in 25min out the door.
 
Unfortunately, in some ways, they’re now indentured servants of those companies, especially if they or their families have pre-existing conditions. If they quit or get laid off, at best they have much more expensive insurance for a while via COBRA until they get rehired.

As a military retiree I don’t have that worry. My “go to h#ll” threshold is much lower since I don’t need to worry about going bare. Plus several of my peers were in a tight spot when our company cut a lot of senior leadership positions and they weren’t old enough for Medicare but too old to be as competitive in the job market as before.

Hardly, they change jobs at will, none of them feel tied to a job.

A few things I indoctrinated my kids with was work hard, save for a rainy day and don't ever quit a job before you have another job. As for getting laid off, happened to me a few times, and while it is not fun to go through, I always ended up in a better situation. The save for a rainy day takes care of the Cobra deal, and they are all in great shape. Pre existing conditions has pretty much always been a lemming IMO, yes there are cases where people got catastrophic illnesses and got effectively kicked off their insurance or priced out of it, but those are few and far between and have been pretty much legislated out of existence. The real issue with pre-existing conditions is those who refused to buy insurance then end up with a big illness and want to get in. Kind of like people who save money by not having fire insurance on their homes, then try to some after their house burns down. About 1 in 3 would ask for a pay increase instead of taking the health insurance. We wouldn't do that, a few would have spouses with insurance, but most just wanted the extra money and didn't have insurance.

Getting laid off, I never had an issue getting on the new company's insurance plan as long as I came from another insurance plan, which I always have. When I had a company, it was the same deal, the only hitch was if that you didn't have insurance, there was a waiting period of like 60 days before you could enroll.

Oh, I paid for their college too, the only rule there was they had to pick a career that would justify the expense by having available jobs with salaries that would ensure they wouldn't need to move back home. So far so good.
 
And if you then try to use this information and ask what the provider will charge for something, you will almost always be met with blank stares.

That's because the actual cost to the patient is not controlled by the provider. That cost is entirely dependent on the insurance company the patient contracted with. That is a question you need to ask your insurance company.

In our office, you wouldn't get a blank stare. The provider would refer you to the office manager who can give you a good idea what to expect based on your insurance company and the service/surgery at issue. But in the end, it's the insurance who can give you an estimate based on your deductible and OOP status.
 
Hardly, they change jobs at will, none of them feel tied to a job.
Good for them and I sincerely hope it stays that way. Sadly, they’re just one newborn-with-special-needs or unexpected cancer diagnosis away from that world being turned upside down, in our system. Unless they’re military, in which case they and their family would be covered. In my career I definitely saw people marry or become military explicitly to pick up the health coverage for themselves or family. What a perverse system we have…

I sincerely hope your kids and their families stay healthy!
 
If you had any experience pricing employer health insurance you would realize passage of the ACA had nothing to do increase in health insurance costs. Check out the graph.

I own a medical facility. ACA destroyed the field. Schedule B providers (non-hospitals) are being purchased by the hospital corporations as our reimbursements are down 10 fold (yes, a vascular sono in the 90's was 2 grand now reimburses about $129). Schedule A is protected (of course) and the insurance companies raise rates automatically on employers 10% a year to cover their increase in unnecessary layers of employees.

A few thoughts as I see "socialized medicine" mentioned in this thread.

Heck - I'm on TRICARE for Life, so I'm set (and THANK YOU for getting your taxes in on time!:) ). I just wish the rest of the country could have the same level of healthcare economic security I have.

Not so fast, I own a medical facility and can tell you ... Tricare requires authorizations which quite often are NOT approved. See how things go when you need something expensive that the military doesn't have a specialist for, or they're too full to get to you (like the VA waiting lists).

Texas passed limitation on medical liability claims as well as a brief statute of limitations on filing suit several years ago. Has made not a whit of difference on slowing the rise in cost. Malpractice as a driver is a canard.

This is true ... other than lower malpractice insurance rates there was no effect. It did nothing to the Schedule A charges. Schedule B providers (docs, clinics all non-hospital) should be out of business within 5 years as those contracted rates were utterly decimated. Most physicians are now hospital owned. All physicians here complain as they cannot make any statements regarding patient care to the media ... gotta go with the narrative ...
 
Good for them and I sincerely hope it stays that way. Sadly, they’re just one newborn-with-special-needs or unexpected cancer diagnosis away from that world being turned upside down, in our system. Unless they’re military, in which case they and their family would be covered. In my career I definitely saw people marry or become military explicitly to pick up the health coverage for themselves or family. What a perverse system we have…

I sincerely hope your kids and their families stay healthy!

Thank you. Honestly, I've had relatives with cancer diagnoses and other catastrophic problems who have had no issues with private insurance. Special needs newborns, that's something I haven't experienced, I'm past that chance now, hopefully my kids won't have to deal with it.
 
That's because the actual cost to the patient is not controlled by the provider. That cost is entirely dependent on the insurance company the patient contracted with. That is a question you need to ask your insurance company.

In our office, you wouldn't get a blank stare. The provider would refer you to the office manager who can give you a good idea what to expect based on your insurance company and the service/surgery at issue. But in the end, it's the insurance who can give you an estimate based on your deductible and OOP status.

I’m glad to hear some offices can answer the question.

But this does illustrate my point about many of the issues here being driven by 3rd party payment rather than direct cash payment for most routine things. This does not allow a market and competition to develop and function. And the preference for employer provided health insurance is largely driven by the tax treatment as a pre-tax benefit as well as preferential treatment of HMOs.
 
Everyone still dies in the end. It is end of life stuff that takes medical costs exponential. Both of my parents were very healthy until the last 5 years of their lives. Both had numerous events in their last years that drove multi-day hospital stays, rehab, in-home nursing, etc.

The best 'bang for the buck' we have in medicine would be to train more geriatricians and palliative care specialists. The 'problem' is often to get families to accept the reality of the situation and to move someone to geriatric or palliative care. The hospital/ER/ICU/SNF/rehab is a machine and once you feed someone in, the machine will do its thing. Of course it's not logical to do the tenth abdominal CT in as many weeks on a dying patient with abdominal pain. Scan #10 will have as little influence on the patients well-being as did #7 and #5. But once the private ambulance from the nursing home wheels the victim patient through the ER door, the machine will do it's thing. All of us who are involved in the farce care know its insane and futile, but until the family calls an end to it, it will continue.
 
I know this thread will be locked in a matter of minutes but here goes.

I just filled out my open enrollment paperwork for my company and the plan for me and my family is $1720 per month. My employer pays half so $860 per month for me for premiums.

This means to use zero medical services, my medical premiums add up to $20,640 per year.
That is the cost if I never use it. My deductible is $7500 so $28,140 annually. My share is $17,820.

I assume most of that money goes to the insurer's pockets but have no way of knowing for sure.
(Feels like it should be illegal)

I also stress that these are the prices irrespective of income. There are people at my company that make $20k / year. We have an option of a cheaper plan that is about 50% less but 15,000 deductible. For them that still seems impossible.

To those that don't live in the U.S. your medical is added into your annual taxes correct?
Does anyone know what that comes out to for an individual? Is it more or less than what I described above?


Are there alternatives here or is this the sandwich we have no choice but to eat?

I have been reading through the paperwork and it feels like the system is designed to be very expensive and try not to offer very much in the way of actually helping people.

I get. If I get cancer and have million dollar bills, it counts then but not much else.
If I paid my normal visits and preventative care out of pocket it sure wouldn't add up to 20k a year.

Ok, Lock the thread.
Insurance companies are mandated to give out a large percentage of premiums. I've gotten a refund for one year where they under-distributed.
My premium was nearly $900/month, with an $8500 deductible, but I'll be 65 soon, so you young people will be paying.
 
The best 'bang for the buck' we have in medicine would be to train more geriatricians and palliative care specialists. The 'problem' is often to get families to accept the reality of the situation and to move someone to geriatric or palliative care. The hospital/ER/ICU/SNF/rehab is a machine and once you feed someone in, the machine will do its thing. Of course it's not logical to do the tenth abdominal CT in as many weeks on a dying patient with abdominal pain. Scan #10 will have as little influence on the patients well-being as did #7 and #5. But once the private ambulance from the nursing home wheels the victim patient through the ER door, the machine will do it's thing. All of us who are involved in the farce care know its insane and futile, but until the family calls an end to it, it will continue.

This ^^^^^^

I went through this with several elderly relatives. The first was in a very nice assisted living place and he kept having issues where they would call the ambulance. He would end up spending 3 days in the hospital being prodded and poked. The head nurse came to me and asked why he kept going to the hospital, I told her because your people keep calling the ambulance for him. She said, well, if you're ok with it, I'll put a stop to that. We did, he was much happier, we ended up having to get him and aide so he could stay in the non-skilled environment. He lived another couple months relatively happy and at peace.

I still see friends doing surgeries on 85 year old very demented parents, it make me feel bad. Do your living wills people, get a health proxy whom you trust and talk over what you want done if you can't make the decisions yourself. I could save you lots of pain at the end.
 
That's because the actual cost to the patient is not controlled by the provider. That cost is entirely dependent on the insurance company the patient contracted with. That is a question you need to ask your insurance company.

In our office, you wouldn't get a blank stare. The provider would refer you to the office manager who can give you a good idea what to expect based on your insurance company and the service/surgery at issue. But in the end, it's the insurance who can give you an estimate based on your deductible and OOP status.

I’m glad to hear some offices can answer the question.

But this does illustrate my point about many of the issues here being driven by 3rd party payment rather than direct cash payment for most routine things. This does not allow a market and competition to develop and function. And the preference for employer provided health insurance is largely driven by the tax treatment as a pre-tax benefit as well as preferential treatment of HMOs.
It’s really more of a both/and scenario. I can tell you for a fact that the insurer cannot give you an accurate estimate for a procedure without information from the provider because providers will bill differently for the same procedure, and even the same provider may bill differently depending on which person on their staff submitted the claims.

There was recently some cost transparency legislation and regulations passed that require that, upon request, providers submit the codes they intend to bill to the insurance company and the insurance company provide to the member what we’re calling and Advance Explanation of Benefits, which would break down what the provider intends to charge and what the member’s cost sharing would be. This requirement goes into effect 1/1/2022.
 
Healthcare billing is WAAY more complicated than a reasonable-length post here could describe. It's full of "you're kidding me!!" realities. Some quick ones: insurance often pays via a "percent of billed charges": they'll negotiate to pay, say, 50% of the hospital/provider's usual and customary rate. Sounds impressive! Then the hospital/provider sets the rate pretty high. Who wouldn't, in that situation? By contrast, Medicare/Medicaid/TRICARE all use fixed rates set by the government. And self-pay? Believe it or not, they're expected to pay that "usual and customary" rate, with some relatively minor discounts offered for prompt pay, etc. The latter is driven by car insurance regs: insurers didn't want to pay one price for body work while someone else walking in and paying out of pocket pays a rate a fraction of that.

So, three people walk into an ER with headaches all requiring an MRI. Just for the MRI (not the ER visit, meds, etc.), the one with insurance may get charged $5,000 for the MRI but their insurance has negotiated that down 50%, so the insurance pays $2,500 and the patient pays whatever copay/cost share they may have (zero to whatever dollar/percentage).

Second patient has no insurance and is billed for the $5,000 and is expected to pay it. A week later they go negotiate with the billing people and get a 30% discount for prompt payment or something else the hospital has creatively developed which allows them to legitimately offer a discount. They either pay that $3,500 eventually or the bill goes to collection, where maybe months or even years later it gets negotiated down further or written off as bad debt.

The third patient is on Medicare. The hospital bills $5,000 and Medicare says "that's interesting. We reimburse $200 for that". And the hospital takes it. And the patient pays whatever copay/cost share their Medicare supplement (if any) tells them to. But it's not for the $4,800 difference; the hospital can't "balance bill" for that. If a hospital chooses to accept Medicare patients, they are required to accept Medicare payment rates.

Want your head to spin some more? One reason the tables like the one cited above for cost comparisons are limited is because of "bundling" and "unbundling". Ask one hospital how much they charge for an appendectomy and they may quote $3,000 and another may quote $10,000. But when two patients walk out of the two different hospitals after their appendectomies, the insurance company for the one at the $3,000 hospital may end up paying more. That's because that hospital may charge separately for charges: days of hospitalization, IV fluids, bandages, dietary support, hospital meds, etc. The second one may have "bundled" all of those into a "global" charge for an appendectomy. While the second one at first may sound higher, to an insurer it's a known and limited expense; they pay $10,000 whether the person stays in one day or has complications lasting weeks. The second hospital is incentivized to manage expenses for that appendectomy so they can keep as much of that $10,000 as profit (I'm GREATLY oversimplifying this - there are ways to be paid for those outliers - but the general concept is loosely correct. And the rest of this post is also simplified but loosely correct, for illustration).
 
All of us who are involved in the farce care know its insane and futile, but until the family calls an end to it, it will continue.

I don't have a solution. Few families (or doctors) are gonna give up on the (often miniscule) chance that a patient or relative will have a full recovery and gain a few more years of quality life after recovery. The alternative is the so called "death panels" people (rightfully) lose their minds over. Some of life's conundrums are a beeyotch.
 
I’m glad to hear some offices can answer the question.

But this does illustrate my point about many of the issues here being driven by 3rd party payment rather than direct cash payment for most routine things. This does not allow a market and competition to develop and function. And the preference for employer provided health insurance is largely driven by the tax treatment as a pre-tax benefit as well as preferential treatment of HMOs.

Yes, if health insurance premiums were fully deductible to the individual, we would have a very different health insurance market. There would be no reason to get insurance through your employer. A health insurance customer who may be a source of premiums for the next 25 years is a different thing from a 'subject' whose contract is negotiated between the insurer/TPA and the employer. There could be a benefit to building in a life-insurance/investment component into the insurance product to stabilize the premiums later in life and the insurer would actually be interested in the long term health of their customer through things like weight management etc. As it stands right now, the health insurers interest in the subscriber is the current premium year, they dont know whether that subscriber is going to be around next year if the employer changes contracts. And the abominable 0-care plans are no different. Every November, the subscribers can jump ship and there is no reason for the insurer to not treat them like dog-****.

In the current system, you can't blame the provider for not knowing the cost. The cost is set by the insurer.

On the provider side, I would gladly put up my sign 'the doctor is in' and post a list of prices behind the registration counter with those little plastic letters on a pegboard like an old car repair place. I know what I want to collect for a certain service. You like the price, you get the service. If you want to have the surgery, come back and pay before you leave the surgery center. Btw. we do have some of those customers. They are amish and mennonite. We give them the lowest cash price the government allows and on the day of surgery, a son or nephew counts a stack of wrinkled notes on the managers desk. No billing, no waiting for the money. Same mechanism with the occasional uninsured hispanic contractor.
 
The best 'bang for the buck' we have in medicine would be to train more geriatricians and palliative care specialists. The 'problem' is often to get families to accept the reality of the situation and to move someone to geriatric or palliative care. The hospital/ER/ICU/SNF/rehab is a machine and once you feed someone in, the machine will do its thing. Of course it's not logical to do the tenth abdominal CT in as many weeks on a dying patient with abdominal pain. Scan #10 will have as little influence on the patients well-being as did #7 and #5. But once the private ambulance from the nursing home wheels the victim patient through the ER door, the machine will do it's thing. All of us who are involved in the farce care know its insane and futile, but until the family calls an end to it, it will continue.

I think to some extent driven by the way it was 60 years ago when the Blues were set up. Back then there wasn’t a lot of expensive stuff that could be done for most people. So the insurance said “we will pay for everything to be done” and we could afford that on average as a society.

Nowadays there are a lot more expensive things which can be done at the end of life. And since the average person makes perhaps $2M over the course of their working life, clearly we cannot on average be paying $1M in end of life care.
 
Yes, if health insurance premiums were fully deductible to the individual, we would have a very different health insurance market. There would be no reason to get insurance through your employer. A health insurance customer who may be a source of premiums for the next 25 years is a different thing from a 'subject' whose contract is negotiated between the insurer/TPA and the employer. There could be a benefit to building in a life-insurance/investment component into the insurance product to stabilize the premiums later in life and the insurer would actually be interested in the long term health of their customer through things like weight management.

Hear hear! And yet this relatively simple market based solution was ignored and we got a healthcare reform bill that was so long the sponsors said it had to be passed to understand what was in it. Sigh.

In my view, if you want to get the best possible healthcare for all people, let a free market drive the prices down and things will become much more affordable for everyone.
 
A number of years ago, my father in law needed back surgery. He went to Lahey Clinic here in Massachusetts, was in a room in 2 other patients who got the same type of surgery. He chatted them up, turns out they were from Canada. They told him that the wait for the surgery they needed was over 9 months in Canada, I forget the details of where they were from. This was a condition where you could barely walk without the surgery. They said they were lucky and could afford to come to the US to get it done.
Yes, that does happen — for a few types of elective surgery the waiting list in Ontario can be months long, depending on where you live. I've never experienced that personally, nor has anyone in my extended family, but you do hear about it sometimes in the news (especially for something like hip or knee replacement).

Similarly, you hear in the news about Americans travelling to India or Latin America to get critical surgery that their insurance won't cover, and which would be unaffordable at home. Again, that hasn't happened to anyone I know personally, and probably isn't too common, but all systems (unfortunately) have people who fall through the cracks.
 
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