[NA]HA"Rules"[NA]

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Feb 23, 2005
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Display name:
Dave Taylor
Send to SZ as necessary...

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,579147,00.html
"showed his mettle in Carano, Italy, where he single-handedly destroyed a set of German machine gun nests, killed eight enemy soldiers, took 17 prisoners and stared down a tank before destroying it and killing its crew — all in a single day. Exhausted by his herculean efforts, he still managed to move two of his wounded men 1,700 yards to safety."

I say let the guy have a hundred flagpoles, each 50' high if he wants them!
 
What an embarrassment. Shame, shame, shame.....:nonod:

See ya at the SZ Dave. I'll buy the first round.
 
It's really a sad state of affairs.... When did all this neighborhood governance start anyway? It's all BS. You never really own property, but it used to be just the real government that you rented it from. Now there are associations and their related fees you have to deal with as well. I would never consider buying a house somewhere where I had to get approval for everything. He wants a flagpole, the dude earned a freaking flag pole. I say sue the association for a couple of million for emotional distress and name all the people on the board personally as well.
 
I hate HOAs but he did just move in and it was in the rules. It strikes me as the samething as people who move next to an airport and then complain the planes make too much noise. If having the flagpole was that important to him then he should have made sure before he bought that he could have it.

From the article
Barfoot had sought permission to install the pole shortly after he moved into the community — a complex of townhouses where the grounds are community property — last June. The board denied his request in July.


But Barfoot and his family say there is no provision in Sussex Square's rules that forbids erecting flagpoles.
Yet he sought permission. Somethign does nto sound right there.



"There's never been a day in my life or a place I've lived in my life that you couldn't fly the American flag," Barfoot said in an interview with the Richmond Times-Dispatch.
In a statement released last night, the association sought to defend its position against a growing chorus of outrage.

The statement reminded the public that many American flags hang from homes in the Sussex Square community, and that the board members object only to Barfoot's freestanding flagpole.
So he is not being stopped from flying the flag, only form having a freestanding flag pole. Like I said if this was that important to him he should have checked out the HOA before he bought just a few months ago.


I know I will never buy a home with a HOA.
 
I currently live in a neighborhood with a HOA, and I had one years ago in Colorado and later in Oregon. They have their ups and downs. And in some parts of the country they're darned hard to avoid. The covenant that bugs me when it is there is one prohibiting external antennas. Being an amateur radio operator, that's a show stopper for me. Where I am now the only two rules that could impact my antennas are the requirement to get permission for anything roof mounted and the need to protect views. No biggie, don't put anything on the roof. And, views? It's a good 60 feet UP to the next house, so I could (maybe) get away with a short tower. However, my wife thinks "stupidradio" is one works, so the HOA is the least of my worries. I've had my stealth antennas up for over 10 years and nobody has complained yet.

Now, the Colonel has a problem. He bought a condo and the HOA owns the ground. He actually has installed the pole on their property, not his own. At least, that's how I read the story. I fully support him, but he may have an issue based on that point. Best of luck to him.
 
I'd tell them to go ahead and sue. They may be legally in the right, but I doubt they really want any more negative publicity than they already have gotten.

Incidentally, the existence of HOA boards is the singular reason why I've never purchased a condo or co-op.

-Rich
 
Sometimes we have to stand back and say, let's set the rules aside in this case, look at the big picture. "For God's sake, if it weren't for this man and others like him we might all be speaking German!" (If I were him I might be thinking "Those ingrates. I risked my life for my country, and look what they have let things become.")
 
Sometimes we have to stand back and say, let's set the rules aside in this case, look at the big picture. "For God's sake, if it weren't for this man and others like him we might all be speaking German!" (If I were him I might be thinking "Those ingrates. I risked my life for my country, and look what they have let things become.")
There is a third side I think you are forgetting. The condo people are saying, 'thank goodness for guy s like him that we can our place to live with our rules and now he wants to come in here and change our rules.'
 
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Richmond (where I live) is rife with HOA's. I'm not sure why, but I believe it has to do with some peculiarities in Virginia housing law.

I live in a 1,600 home development, ranging in size from 1800sf to 8000sf. It's a mildly upscale neighborhood, and recently built. Our HOA is absolutely draconian. I put my locking-lid toter trash can behind my garage in the summer (because, well, the trash stinks). I got a letter in the mail, with dated, timestamped photos of my toter BEHIND my garage, with a $25 fine. I was blown away -- my trash can, out of public view, behind my garage, and I was being fined?!

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
I have to go with the HOA on this one as well. They had rules and this guy does not want to follow them. While there is nothing in the articule about it, has a compramise been tried, i.e. a flag pole in a common area like the entrance where he can display the flag? From what little information in the story it sounded like he wanted the pole right outside his unit. I live in a HOA ruled area and have served on the board a number of times in the 20 years I have lived here. Part of the problem is consistency. It's a fine line between bending/breaking a rule and having no rules at all. It's a sad but true fact that in a most cases you can't count on people to make reasonable choices about things, you need rules to guide them. Also, I might think it's reasonable to repair old cars in my driveway for months on end while you don't.
 
I hate HOAs but he did just move in and it was in the rules. It strikes me as the samething as people who move next to an airport and then complain the planes make too much noise. If having the flagpole was that important to him then he should have made sure before he bought that he could have it.

From the article
Yet he sought permission. Somethign does nto sound right there.



So he is not being stopped from flying the flag, only form having a freestanding flag pole. Like I said if this was that important to him he should have checked out the HOA before he bought just a few months ago.


I know I will never buy a home with a HOA.


OK...the universe is shifting, but I agree with you Scott!

I say this is a combat vet and as someone who lives in a neighborhood with an HOA (fly-in community to boot...talk about rules). This guy deserves our thanks and admiration for what he did, and boy did he ever earn that CMoH. However, the rules were there BEFORE he moved in....and he has to abide by them. As Scott said, this is exactly like someone moving next to an airport and then complaining about the noise.
 
Richmond (where I live) is rife with HOA's. I'm not sure why, but I believe it has to do with some peculiarities in Virginia housing law.

I live in a 1,600 home development, ranging in size from 1800sf to 8000sf. It's a mildly upscale neighborhood, and recently built. Our HOA is absolutely draconian. I put my locking-lid toter trash can behind my garage in the summer (because, well, the trash stinks). I got a letter in the mail, with dated, timestamped photos of my toter BEHIND my garage, with a $25 fine. I was blown away -- my trash can, out of public view, behind my garage, and I was being fined?!

Cheers,

-Andrew

Did you send them a letter with a timestamped photo of you putting
that letter in the trash can behind your garage?
 
I hate HOAs but he did just move in and it was in the rules. It strikes me as the samething as people who move next to an airport and then complain the planes make too much noise. If having the flagpole was that important to him then he should have made sure before he bought that he could have it.

From the article
Yet he sought permission. Somethign does nto sound right there.



So he is not being stopped from flying the flag, only form having a freestanding flag pole. Like I said if this was that important to him he should have checked out the HOA before he bought just a few months ago.


I know I will never buy a home with a HOA.

Scott;
I see this as a similar argument as it applies to the whole health care debate. The majority have ruled that they want certain rules in place that govern everyone's behaviors. Why would you feel that it's ok on a macro level but not on a micro level?
 
Did you send them a letter with a timestamped photo of you putting
that letter in the trash can behind your garage?

No, we had a nice little discussion about it. I paid the $25 as a "leave me alone" tax.

What really, really, REALLY bothers me? The whole act of photographing me and and being in my back yard. I know who did the photographing, I've been half tempted to take a day off work and follow him around during the day, photographing him in various situations, maybe record a video of him speeding, and so on.

But I won't, because that's just childish. But man, some days, I want to really be a child.

Cheers,

-Andrew
 
Did you send them a letter with a timestamped photo of you putting
that letter in the trash can behind your garage?
:rofl:

I lived in Columbia MD for 12 yrs. Every new home buyer gets the copy of the Homeowners Association rules. It's kind of crazy -- 80,000 people governed by a Homeowners Association. At any rate, I sat down to read it and thought, jeez, how nitpicky. Then I would drive through other communities that lacked covenants against stuff like wagon wheels and statues of small boys peeing and felt better about the HOA.

If the guy wants a flagpole, why not hold the ceremony at the VFW?

The HOA is being made out to be the bad guy here, and that's unfair.
 
:rofl:

I lived in Columbia MD for 12 yrs. Every new home buyer gets the copy of the Homeowners Association rules. It's kind of crazy -- 80,000 people governed by a Homeowners Association. At any rate, I sat down to read it and thought, jeez, how nitpicky. Then I would drive through other communities that lacked covenants against stuff like wagon wheels and statues of small boys peeing and felt better about the HOA.

If the guy wants a flagpole, why not hold the ceremony at the VFW?

The HOA is being made out to be the bad guy here, and that's unfair.

They have their ups and downs, and in some neighborhoods, I could see the real concern since everything seems to affect property values.

At the same time, I don't like the idea of purchasing something land and a home and having to pay someone to tell me I can't do X, Y or Z with my property.

All the more reason to look for rural property. :D
 
However, the rules were there BEFORE he moved in.

For me it all comes down to respect for what a war hero has done for us, and placing that ahead of the very minor importance of our petty HOA rules, and our slavish adherence to them.

'How soon we forget' comes to mind.

We might not have our HOAs, or our silly rules, or even our homes..... if it were not for what WWII warriers accomplished. WE OWE THEM. If letting this man put up a flag is so hard, then we are lost.

Ah, what the h.
On Monday, I was flipping the calendar to December, with my 15 yo shadow standing nearby. Lookit that, Pearl Harbor day on Monday. "Hey I said, so you know what Pearl Harbor day is, or what happened on that day?", I asked.
"Umm, some battle I think?" she said. Makes a person want to weep.
 
For me it all comes down to respect for what a war hero has done for us, and placing that ahead of the very minor importance of our petty HOA rules, and our slavish adherence to them.

'How soon we forget' comes to mind.

We might not have our HOAs, or our silly rules, or even our homes..... if it were not for what WWII warriers accomplished. WE OWE THEM. If letting this man put up a flag is so hard, then we are lost.

Ah, what the h.
On Monday, I was flipping the calendar to December, with my 15 yo shadow standing nearby. Lookit that, Pearl Harbor day on Monday. "Hey I said, so you know what Pearl Harbor day is, or what happened on that day?", I asked.
"Umm, some battle I think?" she said. Makes a person want to weep.

Remember, that freedom he fought for? It let's him choose to live in a different community. It also allows this community to set its rules.

They haven't said he can't have a flag. Why can't he put it on a staff attached to the house and raise it there???
 
No, we had a nice little discussion about it. I paid the $25 as a "leave me alone" tax.

What really, really, REALLY bothers me? The whole act of photographing me and and being in my back yard. I know who did the photographing, I've been half tempted to take a day off work and follow him around during the day, photographing him in various situations, maybe record a video of him speeding, and so on.

But I won't, because that's just childish. But man, some days, I want to really be a child.

Cheers,

-Andrew

I don't know what it is about HOA boards that attracts people like that! :mad2:

But back to the OP, it seems like something is missing from the story...they should take a vote of the residents to see if the flag pole can stay at this point, IMO. Sheesh, the guy's 90 years old, I can't imagine there would be enough people that would get their underoos in such a knot that they can't let him fly the flag every day...


Trapper John
 
I don't know what it is about HOA boards that attracts people like that! :mad2:

But back to the OP, it seems like something is missing from the story...they should take a vote of the residents to see if the flag pole can stay at this point, IMO. Sheesh, the guy's 90 years old, I can't imagine there would be enough people that would get their underoos in such a knot that they can't let him fly the flag every day...


Trapper John
I think the point of the HOA is that he can fly the flag. He just must fly it from a staff attached to his house as flag poles that are freestanding are not allowed.
 
I think the point of the HOA is that he can fly the flag. He just must fly it from a staff attached to his house as flag poles that are freestanding are not allowed.

Yeah, I know. And bending the rules just that one time could open the door to all kinds of mayhem, like, well, people leaving their garage doors open and stuff! :D


Trapper John
 
Yeah, I know. And bending the rules just that one time could open the door to all kinds of mayhem, like, well, people leaving their garage doors open and stuff! :D


Trapper John
..and dogs and cats marrying...ANARCHY!!

I know, it sounds like such a little thing. But I think there are some ego issues about respecting somebody's Author-ee-Tee! He moved in asked permission, they said no, and then he did it anyways. I think he showed a lack of respect for the rules and wants special treatment. The HOA board is probably very annoyed at that and want a big apology before reconsidering his case.
 
Scott;
I see this as a similar argument as it applies to the whole health care debate. The majority have ruled that they want certain rules in place that govern everyone's behaviors. Why would you feel that it's ok on a macro level but not on a micro level?

Not to be churlish, but utterly different; no one becomes subjected to the rules and regulations of a homeowners' association unless they purchase property which is subject thereto. That is a voluntary act.
 
Not to be churlish, but utterly different; no one becomes subjected to the rules and regulations of a homeowners' association unless they purchase property which is subject thereto. That is a voluntary act.

It's not a perfect match. There is a tiny argument to be made that you choose to live in this country as well. I was more trying to point out that sometimes the majority rules concept can bring bad things to a group.
 
Not to be churlish, but utterly different; no one becomes subjected to the rules and regulations of a homeowners' association unless they purchase property which is subject thereto. That is a voluntary act.

Unless the Covenants allow the Board to impose new regulations/bylaws without actual amendment of the covenants. Most do allow changes to the regulations, subject to a vote of the property owners.... but some allow changes to be made by the board alone.

As Dean Wormer said: "Double secret probation".
 
It would be interesting to read the rules and restrictions to find out what
aesthetic guidelines are violated by a free-standing flag pole displaying the
USA flag.
 
This burns me. I realize that he had a choice not to move into the neighborhood, but this rule is beyond ridiculous, especially for a vet.
 
This is why I never even *LOOKED* at a house that was governed by a HOA. I bought a house so I could do what I wanted to do. There is no way I'm going to pay someone to tell me I can't have my garbage can beside my house.

Yes, I have a neighbor or two that have some things that are less than pretty on their property, but that's fine with me. That means they're not going to be complaining about what I do.
 
It would be interesting to read the rules and restrictions to find out what
aesthetic guidelines are violated by a free-standing flag pole displaying the
USA flag.

The rule that says "no free-standing flag poles."
 
The rule that says "no free-standing flag poles."

Is it a rule or just a guideline?

If it is a rule, is it a reasonable rule?

I'd still like to see the language of the "rule". I sometimes encounter
people who think a specification or standard requires something but
are not able to back it up by pointing to the specific language.
 
Is it a rule or just a guideline?

If it is a rule, is it a reasonable rule?

I'd still like to see the language of the "rule". I sometimes encounter
people who think a specification or standard requires something but
are not able to back it up by pointing to the specific language.

In my experience, HOA rules are, in fact, rules. You have to sign on the dotted line when you buy a property subject to HOA governance that you, indeed, will abide by the rules. Signing that also gives HOA the right to require you to rectify any transgressions.

Do I have the actual language of this HOA available?? No. I'm willing to bet, however, that they wouldn't go to the mat on this without having consulted the language. They have "covenant enforcers" who take care of all that.

Don't like it? Don't move there. It is, after all, a free country.:D
 
I service a few of these "communities," and I find that almost without exception, the people who serve on the boards are those who really, truly have nothing better to do than be busybodies. They each have a list of "authorized contractors," and residents are supposed to choose from those lists or have new contractors apply for board approval prior to doing business with them. Being on the list is good for business, but not so good for peace of mind.

I was once fined by a board, for example, for not having my company name on my "truck" (a Saturn Vue), as required of all contractors who service the facility. Now these people should know that in New York and Long Island, having my company name on my vehicle would prevent me from driving on about half the major roads ("parkways" are restricted to passenger vehicles). The fine was trivial (I think it was $25.00), but what bothered me is that someone had nothing better to do than write me up.

I've also been fined for not getting approval prior to installing a DSL/POTS splitter on the outside of a house, amidst all the other utility wiring, meters, and boxes. This is a little plastic box about 2 inches by 3 inches that gets mounted next to the Telco NIB to split off the DSL. No one ever would have noticed the thing had I not been observed installing it, and frankly, I'm not sure the HOA has any legal right to regulate such things. But again, I paid the trivial fine to avoid losing the business.

One of the more interesting cases was when a board had a meeting during which they decided that all wireless routers in the community had to be encrypted (not a bad idea), but that the management office had to know the SSID and WPA key (huh?). That one came about when two residents set up their own unencrypted networks using the same default SSIDs, and one neighbor inadvertently tapped into the other's router. Somehow, that resident also managed to install the other resident's network printer to his laptop as the default, and all the porn he was trying to print was printing on his neighbor's printer.

I happened to get the calls from both residents the same day: One was a call to T/S the printer to find out why it wasn't printing, and the other was a call from the other guy to stop his printer from spewing out porn. It was kind of comical, actually; and the board came out with the encryption requirement shortly thereafter. But I never got a good answer regarding (nor did I comply with) the board requirement that they be informed as to what people's PSKs were.

-Rich
 
I service a few of these "communities," and I find that almost without exception, the people who serve on the boards are those who really, truly have nothing better to do than be busybodies. They each have a list of "authorized contractors," and residents are supposed to choose from those lists or have new contractors apply for board approval prior to doing business with them. Being on the list is good for business, but not so good for peace of mind.

I was once fined by a board, for example, for not having my company name on my "truck" (a Saturn Vue), as required of all contractors who service the facility. Now these people should know that in New York and Long Island, having my company name on my vehicle would prevent me from driving on about half the major roads ("parkways" are restricted to passenger vehicles). The fine was trivial (I think it was $25.00), but what bothered me is that someone had nothing better to do than write me up.

I've also been fined for not getting approval prior to installing a DSL/POTS splitter on the outside of a house, amidst all the other utility wiring, meters, and boxes. This is a little plastic box about 2 inches by 3 inches that gets mounted next to the Telco NIB to split off the DSL. No one ever would have noticed the thing had I not been observed installing it, and frankly, I'm not sure the HOA has any legal right to regulate such things. But again, I paid the trivial fine to avoid losing the business.

One of the more interesting cases was when a board had a meeting during which they decided that all wireless routers in the community had to be encrypted (not a bad idea), but that the management office had to know the SSID and WPA key (huh?). That one came about when two residents set up their own unencrypted networks using the same default SSIDs, and one neighbor inadvertently tapped into the other's router. Somehow, that resident also managed to install the other resident's network printer to his laptop as the default, and all the porn he was trying to print was printing on his neighbor's printer.

I happened to get the calls from both residents the same day: One was a call to T/S the printer to find out why it wasn't printing, and the other was a call from the other guy to stop his printer from spewing out porn. It was kind of comical, actually; and the board came out with the encryption requirement shortly thereafter. But I never got a good answer regarding (nor did I comply with) the board requirement that they be informed as to what people's PSKs were.

-Rich

That is funny, but if our HOA came to me and asked for the passwords to our wireless routers (yes, there are two in the house) they would be told in explicit language where to put it. Both because they don't have a need to know and because nothing in the existing covenants and bylaws allow them to even ask. Besides, those documents can only be updated at certain intervals and we have legal advice (I used to head the architectural control committee) that says that if we change anything we might lose other provisions that can no longer be put in, so we've got the "control everything" people effectively checkmated.

And the board fined you, a contractor, for not having your name on the vehicle? Glad I don't live there. That's just plain nuts.
 
I got a letter in the mail, with dated, timestamped photos of my toter BEHIND my garage, with a $25 fine. I was blown away -- my trash can, out of public view, behind my garage, and I was being fined?
I think I would be tempted to sue for tresspass, with the photo as evidence... I hate HOAs...
 
I live in the Falmouth Airpark, MA. The BOD just sued my 90 neighbor for something they had expressly authorized him to do a few years earlier.

The BOD faction changed, and went looking for partisans to the old board to punish.

In other words, the rules get made up as they go along.

This HOA is dispicable and has ruined what was once a fun community.

The lawyer just LOVES the crazys that aspire to run the place.

If Osama Bin Laden were smart (and thank god he's an idiot) he would have just bought property, created HOAs and then let Americans strip each other of their Constitutional rights like cats tail tied over a tree branch.

He could have sat back and laughed and laughed
 
That's unfortunate.

I used to enjoy flying into 5B6.
 
I live in the Falmouth Airpark, MA. The BOD just sued my 90 neighbor for something they had expressly authorized him to do a few years earlier.

The BOD faction changed, and went looking for partisans to the old board to punish.

In other words, the rules get made up as they go along.

This HOA is dispicable and has ruined what was once a fun community.

The lawyer just LOVES the crazys that aspire to run the place.

If Osama Bin Laden were smart (and thank god he's an idiot) he would have just bought property, created HOAs and then let Americans strip each other of their Constitutional rights like cats tail tied over a tree branch.

He could have sat back and laughed and laughed
I considered moving there until I heard some stories about the HOA.
 
I live in a neighborhood with an HOA. It also explicitly states "no freestanding flagpoles". One of my neighbors put one in his front yard close to his house. It actually was in a pretty unobtrusive spot. He flew the American flag. The HOA threatened all sorts of actions based on the signed agreement. I don't know what strings he pulled (he was a cop at the time), or what arguments he made, but he was allowed to keep it. As far as I know, he's still the only one in the neighborhood with a flagpole like that - everyone else that has one, has it attached to their houses or fences.

Sometimes a person can win.
 
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