NA Grad school dissed NA

Bwahaha. It's inaccurate in some ways, but the comments are telling.

People are already so ****ed off they want the article taken down. They don't like being reminded they wasted their money, time, and resources...
 
And then there's some of us who worked in industry for 10+ years then went back to grad school at night while working full-time for that MS in a very technical field.
 
Ummm....well, I don't care that the author is one of those people who had no business going to grad school. His loss :)
 
I'd be down on grad school too if I'd gone to grad school in frickin' English. Hello, any good jobs out there?... Hellooo....
 
murphey said:
And then there's some of us who worked in industry for 10+ years then went back to grad school at night while working full-time for that MS in a very technical field.
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Amen.
 
Online degrees have watered it down to a point of irrelevance. You need to drag you ass into a real classroom, with a real instructor!


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- Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
The doctor Mrs. Steingar saw yesterday went to a graduate school. So did the lawyers on the SCOTUS. I suppose all those guys getting PhD's in physics and math to do rocket science are just a bunch of layabouts. So are my graduate students. Heck, we don't need no stinkin' cure for cancer.
 
ggroves said:
Online degrees have watered it down to a point of irrelevance. You need to drag you ass into a real classroom, with a real instructor!
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I teach computer science part-time at a local university. You'd think we'd be the first ones to jump on the online concept. Nope - we hate it. But we're forced to offer some of the courses online.

It's great for rote training but worthless for theoretical or conceptual material. There's nothing better than being able to ask a question then have that question trigger another one by someone else. It's call Association.
 
murphey said:
I teach computer science part-time at a local university. You'd think we'd be the first ones to jump on the online concept. Nope - we hate it. But we're forced to offer some of the courses online.

It's great for rote training but worthless for theoretical or conceptual material. There's nothing better than being able to ask a question then have that question trigger another one by someone else. It's call Association.
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Seems that what is missing is a lack of imagination in your online classes.

Are they just basically sitting and watching videos or prerecorded information? If so I agree those are pretty useless. But that certainly is not what all online programs are these days. That type of training is nothing more than what was done 20 years ago for distance learning.

I did my masters all online and each and every class was a live synchronous interactive class with other students and the instructor. We used a Live Meeting or WebEx type of software called Moodle, social media, blogs, chats, etc. to work together. The classes themselves were highly interactive with voice, video, white boards and chat rooms. Also it was required that at least once per semester you had to be on campus for face to face time. I learned a lot and liked it better than going to classes. A lot of the on campus students also took online sections of classes instead of going to the classroom.
 
steingar said:
The doctor Mrs. Steingar saw yesterday went to a graduate school. So did the lawyers on the SCOTUS. I suppose all those guys getting PhD's in physics and math to do rocket science are just a bunch of layabouts. So are my graduate students. Heck, we don't need no stinkin' cure for cancer.
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Geesh what a waste of time and money. If you were smart you would know that education is only for suckers! :D:D
 
I'd say that a considerable part of how "useful" grad school depends a lot on what field you're going into.

For instance, my brother is a chemist. PhD school, or whateverthebleep it's called, or at least some kind of formal education and accreditation, is pretty much a necessity for that. Same with a lot of other technical fields, where you have to have an underlying basis of knowledge that is both accurate and in accord with what is currently accepted.

But, me, I've got a law degree. The only reason I needed to go to law school was to get the piece of paper saying that I had been to law school, which allowed me to sit for the bar in Md. and Colo. I didn't really need that degree, though - the law (and how to practice it), quite seriously, is something that you can figure out on your own if you're willing to put the effort into it. One of our posters, JeffDG, is a very good example of that - he could very easily practice if he wanted to.

Anyway, I guess my point is that there's not a "one size fits all" answer when it comes to graduate schools. Some are useful/necessary, some are just fluff.

Or, to borrow from my favorite movie character ever, in probably one of the worst movies ever, "only a Sith deals in absolutes." ;)
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
I'd say that a considerable part of how "useful" grad school depends a lot on what field you're going into.
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That's true but there are also the people who continue going to school, or go back, because they enjoy it for whatever reason. You don't need a monetary reason to want to learn something. If that was true all the people here who went through pilot training but are not employed as a pilot wasted their time and money.
 
Obi Heed Kenobi said:
Or, to borrow from my favorite movie character ever, in probably one of the worst movies ever, "only a Sith deals in absolutes." ;)
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Nothing like a little irony, i.e. using an absolute to decry absolutes! Thank you George Lucas!

The anti-intellectual climate creeping into American discourse is alarming. Our economic and future prosperity is closely linked to technological development. Such developments are often carried out by "academics". If such minds find an uninviting atmosphere here, there are greener pastures. I am reminded of the thread on this board Another academic in the White House? Obviously there are those that feel that academics are unfit for public service. For what else do such posters think academics unfit?
 
steingar said:
The anti-intellectual climate creeping into American discourse is alarming. Our economic and future prosperity is closely linked to technological development. Such developments are often carried out by "academics". If such minds find an uninviting atmosphere here, there are greener pastures. I am reminded of the thread on this board Another academic in the White House? Obviously there are those that feel that academics are unfit for public service. For what else do such posters think academics unfit?
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Academics have their uses. Scientists have their uses. But sometimes you need practical experience to complete the job, yes?

Maybe I'm over-simplifying and/or it is an OWT, but it would seem that the post-war US rocket program suffered a little because apparently we got more of the German scientists and not enough of the engineers/technicians who actually built the stuff.

bottomline: it's a team effort.
 
Bob Noel said:
Academics have their uses. Scientists have their uses. But sometimes you need practical experience to complete the job, yes?

Maybe I'm over-simplifying and/or it is an OWT, but it would seem that the post-war US rocket program suffered a little because apparently we got more of the German scientists and not enough of the engineers/technicians who actually built the stuff.

bottomline: it's a team effort.
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Yes you are over-simplifying, and are ill informed. Von Braun built the things.
 
Bob Noel said:
Academics have their uses. Scientists have their uses. But sometimes you need practical experience to complete the job, yes?

Maybe I'm over-simplifying and/or it is an OWT, but it would seem that the post-war US rocket program suffered a little because apparently we got more of the German scientists and not enough of the engineers/technicians who actually built the stuff.

bottomline: it's a team effort.
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Are you trying to say that engineers are unintellectual?

Most all engineers are also highly educated and well versed in academia. There are ones that build and ones that theorize but both types use academia and are part of it to communicate ideas and network. There are glorified technicians in the field as well and are super mechanics. Nothing wrong with that but your statement about the space program is really off the mark and yes, it is ill-informed.
 
steingar said:
Yes you are over-simplifying, and are ill informed. Von Braun built the things.
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Von Braun built the things with his own two hands?

hmmm, I'm wondering why so many of the initial launches were so successful....
 
Bob Noel said:
Von Braun built the things with his own two hands?

hmmm, I'm wondering why so many of the initial launches were so successful....
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So what you're saying is the mechanic who fixes the engine is far more valuable than the engineer who designed it in the first place. Yes, very ill informed. That I see such an attitude among pilots, who are supposedly at the toward the upper range of the socioeconomic scale, makes me very fearful for the future of my country.

What do you call a nation that has tremendous concentration of wealth, and that imports high technology and exports food? You call it a third world country.
 
steingar said:
So did the lawyers on the SCOTUS.
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Hasn't always been the case. The most recent example I can think of was Justice Robert H. Jackson (died 1954) who never attended college at all, yet served with distinction as Attorney General of the United States before being appointed by FDR to the Supreme Court, and even went on to be the Chief Prosecutor at the Nuremberg tribunals.

Being uneducated does not mean being not smart, and being educated does not equate to being smart.
 
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ScottM said:
Are you trying to say that engineers are unintellectual?

Most all engineers are also highly educated and well versed in academia. There are ones that build and ones that theorize but both types use academia and are part of it to communicate ideas and network. There are glorified technicians in the field as well and are super mechanics. Nothing wrong with that but your statement about the space program is really off the mark and yes, it is ill-informed.
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I recall when I was in college (BSEE) we took more humanities/social science classes than were required for the general university requirements. 12 semester hours required by the university, 18 semester hours required by the College of Engineering. And how many engineering classes did the liberal arts types have to take? How many would they have survived? About the same number. Scott is right, the engineering curriculum is broad based. More so than many others.
 
steingar said:
Being educated does not equate to being useless either, contrary to popular opinion hereabouts.
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Bumper sticker seen locally: "My kid beat up your honor student".

Gunrack, bumper half off, one fender bondo'd, sanded and primed. Rusted out Chev C10 Pickup, about 2000 vintage.

YEE HA!
 
My husband is a physicist, a German physicist since Von Braun was mentioned. Those are the people you want here if you want alternative energy technology developed. He could not do what he does today without a PhD. He also wouldn't get funding without a PhD, and the funding is to develop new technology.
 
Y'all know my opinion. If bachelors degrees are overused and a waste of time in most cases, I can certainly extend that opinion to graduate school as well...

That said - online school is a great way to get a degree. You work harder (I can compare online to university to community college, and honestly say that), you are more engaged for longer periods of time, and you aren't stuck doing things around someone else's schedule (read: you can work while you waste your time getting a degree you shouldn't have to get). Basically, its the best degree option out there, as it helps you waste less money because you're earning money while you waste it.

2 Options:

1. Start minimum wage and online school at the same time. Work your way through promotions while going to school on your own time, and come out with experience and education 4 years later, making a lot more than minimum wage at 22 or 23 years of age.

2. You can go to a brick and mortar college, working a "college job" with no advancement opportunities while you get your degree in Business Management. You will graduate, have your sheepskin, and get a job making minimum wage at 22 or 23 years of age as an entry level employee.

- Signed - the guy who is a few months away from getting his degree at an online school. Enrolled making ~40K a year, graduating making 6 figures and lots of promotions later.

But hey - "University of South Podunk" sounds pretty attractive, no?
 
JeffDG said:
Being educated doesn't make a straw-man argument any more valid.
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Its not a strawman argument. He's 100% right. In the days when logic prevailed, we didn't require a minimum of a degree for a job that didn't require it. Being educated was for those that wanted specific jobs. Now its a minimum for any job, and its dumb.

I'd like to see the word educated changed to refer only to "possesses a degree" instead of referring to relative intelligence, since no one learns a damn thing in college except how to drink beer and hit on girls (and those of us that are apparently more "educated" than others learned that in high school).
 
SkyHog said:
Its not a strawman argument. He's 100% right. In the days when logic prevailed, we didn't require a minimum of a degree for a job that didn't require it. Being educated was for those that wanted specific jobs. Now its a minimum for any job, and its dumb.

I'd like to see the word educated changed to refer only to "possesses a degree" instead of referring to relative intelligence, since no one learns a damn thing in college except how to drink beer and hit on girls (and those of us that are apparently more "educated" than others learned that in high school).
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It absolutely was straw-man. He was tearing down the argument that "education means you're useless" which nobody that I know is/was making. That's the definition of a straw-man argument: creating a ridiculous argument that nobody is making in order to tear it down.
 
JeffDG said:
It absolutely was straw-man. He was tearing down the argument that "education means you're useless" which nobody that I know is/was making. That's the definition of a straw-man argument: creating a ridiculous argument that nobody is making in order to tear it down.
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That's just it - lots of people make the argument, because its become/becoming true.

Restaurant manager for Pizza Hut....really, you need a degree program for that???
 
SkyHog said:
That's just it - lots of people make the argument, because its become/becoming true.

Restaurant manager for Pizza Hut....really, you need a degree program for that???
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What are you talking about?

Are you claiming that if someone has a degree/graduate degree, that they (as a person) are useless?

If so, then I withdraw my straw-man comment, but I've not seen anyone in this thread say that someone is dumb just because they are educated.
 
JeffDG said:
It absolutely was straw-man. He was tearing down the argument that "education means you're useless" which nobody that I know is/was making. That's the definition of a straw-man argument: creating a ridiculous argument that nobody is making in order to tear it down.
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I'll refer you to post #2. Seems pretty clear that the poster was deeming formal education as useless.
 
JeffDG said:
What are you talking about?

Are you claiming that if someone has a degree/graduate degree, that they (as a person) are useless?

If so, then I withdraw my straw-man comment, but I've not seen anyone in this thread say that someone is dumb just because they are educated.
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My apologies, I read it as "uneducated."

Must be because I am getting my degree online.
 
ScottM said:
Seems that what is missing is a lack of imagination in your online classes.
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I don't teach online classes. At my school the "online" is really nothing more than a package known as BlackBoard (don't get me started...)
Holds class notes, an online forum (not realtime) and such. Very static other than the forum.

About 10 years ago I tried the real-time concept and the students rebelled. They hated it. Of course I was the first at the school to try it, so there was a huge negative mindset - it interferred with their lives.

Now I only teach live classes. I really think the type and topic of the class dictates how well an online course succeeds or fails.
I did my masters all online and each and every class was a live synchronous interactive class with other students and the instructor. We used a Live Meeting or WebEx type of software called Moodle, social media, blogs, chats, etc. to work together. The classes themselves were highly interactive with voice, video, white boards and chat rooms. Also it was required that at least once per semester you had to be on campus for face to face time. I learned a lot and liked it better than going to classes. A lot of the on campus students also took online sections of classes instead of going to the classroom.
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I did most of my masters in this type of situation in the late 80s. We had 1-way video feed and 2-way audio, so everyone could ask questions. I'm not sure I learned all that I could because there was no on-campus interaction but campus was about 120 sm round trip for me. It would have been very beneficial to be able to work with other students in person.
 
murphey said:
I did most of my masters in this type of situation in the late 80s. We had 1-way video feed and 2-way audio, so everyone could ask questions. I'm not sure I learned all that I could because there was no on-campus interaction but campus was about 120 sm round trip for me. It would have been very beneficial to be able to work with other students in person.
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What I am describing is NOT a 1 way video feed with a 2 way audio feed at all. It is far more than that. It is far more than that. It is truly interactive and uses multimedia and other collaborative tools to facilitate learning. It is really very popular. The program itself is the #1 in nation and less than half the applicants actually get accepted into it. There is a line to get into this program. We have student who do fly in from way more than 120sm. I lived three hours away from campus and was one of the 'locals'. We had people come in from Germany, all over the US and there was one student from Hong Kong.

One aspect of the program that I really liked was boot camp. To start the program everyone had to attend a 10 day on campus boot camp. Here you learned what the campus research facilities where, how to access them remotely, work with IT to ensure that your computer was configured correctly, attend a intro class that had you doing all the things you would do in an online class and most of all create a network of contacts with your peers. This was an incredible part of the success in working remotely as you had friends that you had socialized with to also work with on projects. The single student distance learning model is a hard nut to make work. But I think this approach was truly a good one. I knew some of the on campus students and a few would complain about the online courses because the online students tended to over achieve and do far more work than what the on campus students would normally do.
 
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The anti-intellectual climate creeping into American discourse is alarming. Our economic and future prosperity is closely linked to technological development. Such developments are often carried out by "academics". If such minds find an uninviting atmosphere here, there are greener pastures. I am reminded of the thread on this board Another academic in the White House? Obviously there are those that feel that academics are unfit for public service. For what else do such posters think academics unfit?
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Welcome to why I'm glad my masters and doctoral degrees will make me welcome elsewhere because if this country slides any further down the tubes, I'm out of here.

Being uneducated does not mean being not smart, and being educated does not equate to being smart.
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You should rephrase that to "Not possessing a formal education" and "possessing a formal education" since even OJT is education. ;) Otherwise I agree with you. The smartest person I know is a high school dropout dairy farmer.

Von Braun built the things with his own two hands?
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At least for a lot of his early designs he did. Same with Goddard, the Wright Brothers, et al, et al....


hmmm, I'm wondering why so many of the initial launches were so successful....
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At least part of it had to do with the slave labor the SS utilized urinating on some of the instrumentation to corrode the connections....
 
Everskyward said:
That's true but there are also the people who continue going to school, or go back, because they enjoy it for whatever reason. You don't need a monetary reason to want to learn something. If that was true all the people here who went through pilot training but are not employed as a pilot wasted their time and money.
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+1000

I'm currently unemployed. I can either stay home & be miserable or get into trouble (I'm notorious for that in my younger days....) The airplane is down until mid or late October, so I don't even have that.

Instead, when I don't have a job or contract I find a school. I've completed the General portion of A&P, just for grins. Took Aerodynamics at the local college, just for grins (the other students, all Professional Pilot wannabees) thought I was insane.

Right now I'm taking Aviation Security (hybrid course - we meet in person every other week) and Astrophysics (which is really nothing more than learning how AGI's STK software works). The prof for Astrophysics really worried that I wouldn't be able to understand the basics, since there's no physics or math on my transcript at that school. Of course not. BA (Math w/minors in Physics, English & Music) are from another school. My PhD (Math & CS) is from someplace else. As I keep explaining, I already have enough degrees - not interested in any more. Of course I don't tell him that.

One of the students started to explain how to create a directory on the C drive. I explained that I really preferred Unix to Windows but will suffer because STK is only available on Windows and I've had it installed for years on my system at home but never had the time to really dig into the details...I don't think he'll ever speak to me again....which is fine because he was incredibly patronizing. I'm really hoping he'll end up in one of my classes next spring...(*evil laugh*)

I took Spanish in high school because I wanted to read Cervantes in the original. My next project (after the engine overhaul, new interior, etc) is taking Classic Arabic so I can read "Thousand and One Nights" in the original.

Until, of course, I find a job or contract...
 
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