[NA] Car vs Aircraft Engine Startup

ArrowFlyer86

Pattern Altitude
PoA Supporter
Joined
Jul 17, 2019
Messages
2,061
Location
Chicago suburbs
Display Name

Display name:
The Little Arrow That Could
Random question from a non-gearhead.

Why is it that with an aircraft engine I can start it up and set throttle so that it's at idle (1000rpm for me) immediately after startup. And if anything, bringing throttle down immediately after startup can result in RPMs dropping below idle.
Meanwhile on a car when I start it up, particularly in the cold, it'll run sometimes as high as 50%+ over idle RPMs until it's running for a minute and then it'll settle down to normal idle RPMs.

In short -- why is it that the car runs at higher idle RPMs until it's warm?
 
You are also keeping it at 800-1200 as part of avoiding lead fouling I think. Cars gas is lead free now.
 
Most cars made between 1960 and the late '70's had automatic chokes. The choke was the method for enriching the mixture on startup, where the driver doesn't otherwise have direct control over it. A choke would be redundant on an airplane engine since the pilot does have direct control of the mixture. And the throttle too so you can have any startup RPM you want.

A modern computer controlled FI engine is mapped rich at startup but without the throttle reduction at idle a choke would provide, hence the high initial rpm's.
 
To warm it up.

Old school cars had a manual choke to enrich the mixture til the engine warmed up.
Maybe a question I should have the answer to, but why don't we do the same thing on aircraft engines and run them higher at RPMs until they heat up?
I don't do this because my understanding was running a cold engine at higher RPMs put more needless stress on it. But wondering why there'd be a difference in what's good for the engine between auto vs aircraft.
(This question is owing to my own ignorance on any of the differences between them :) )
 
Random question from a non-gearhead.

Why is it that with an aircraft engine I can start it up and set throttle so that it's at idle (1000rpm for me) immediately after startup. And if anything, bringing throttle down immediately after startup can result in RPMs dropping below idle.
Meanwhile on a car when I start it up, particularly in the cold, it'll run sometimes as high as 50%+ over idle RPMs until it's running for a minute and then it'll settle down to normal idle RPMs.

In short -- why is it that the car runs at higher idle RPMs until it's warm?

As stated, the current requirement for this from above is for catalyst light-off. This has to do with EPA requirements. Basically the purpose is to get heat (from the exhaust) into the catalytic converter that gets the catalytic process going faster which reduces tailpipe emissions.

The mechanism that allows this is the fact that your car has some form of idle air control. In the 80s and 90s (earlier days of electronic engine controls), this was primarily handled by some form of idle air control valve. These days where essentially every engine is throttle-by-wire (no physical cable between the gas pedal and the throttle butterfly) this mechanism is generally handled with the electronic control for the throttle body.

If you go back to older carbureted cars, the mechanism did vary to some degree as there were different designs. But your standard mechanical choke carburetor on an American car had the process of flooring the gas pedal twice to engage the choke. This would both enrichen the mixture by "choking" the carburetor, but then sometimes would also add a bit of air depending on the carburetor design. Start the car and it's at a high idle for a while, you hit the gas again to disengage the choke and it goes down.

With older carbureted engines, they often needed to run at a bit higher of an RPM for a while until they warmed up because the overall engine design, weaker ignition, and carburetor design sometimes wouldn't idle very well until it got some heat in it. Some of that was due to combustion, some of that was due to thick oil taking a whole lot more horsepower to flow. Modern engines really don't have this problem, we've come a long way.

Electronic ignition is not entirely an accurate statement, as this is really more a function of airflow than ignition.

When you're talking about aircraft engines, 1) you don't have emissions standards you have to deal with 2) you don't have electronic engine control generally (and when you do, at least the one I worked on didn't have any sort of electronic throttle/air control) 3) the fuel systems don't have any kind of choke mechanism, you just have the mixture knob and primer.

With that said, sometimes when it's especially cold out (the kinds of temperatures where you really should be preheating the engine) you might find that the engine is happier running in the 1000-1500 RPM range to get some heat into it so that it runs better and won't necessarily idle happily at first. I've started these things down into the 10F range without preheat and they generally aren't very happy. Coldest I started one was -25F with not nearly enough preheat and I got it going and it was very unhappy at first. The takeoff distance that day was roughly equal to that of a helicopter.
 
A choke would be redundant on an airplane engine since the pilot does have direct control of the mixture.

Maybe a question I should have the answer to, but why don't we do the same thing on aircraft engines and run them higher at RPMs until they heat up?
Chokes are not used because they have a tendency to ice up, like anything else in the carburetor bore. So we use the primer. Another factor is the risk of choke cable breakage, where the choke might close and kill the engine in flight. And one more factor: we can barely get pilots to understand mixture without having to get them to understand the choke and where to set it for start and where to set it and adjust it during warmup. I am old enough to remember people overchoking their cars and flooding them, so they would keep cranking and choke some more and pump the throttle and eventually kill the battery dead. Knowing what the choke does and how to avoid flooding is a much bigger deal than just using a primer.
 
Auto engines redline at 6000+ RPM. Aircraft engines redline at around 2700 or so, some more, some less. A 1500 RPM idle is not a big deal for small pistons travelling short strokes. Big pistons with longer strokes don't need that.
 
Another reason for longer time for idle rpms to drop in carburetors with electric choke is because the choke mechanism is essentially just a bimetal coil that slowly heats up and opens the choke plate. Until there is sufficient heat from battery current or engine heat, it remains closed off and idle rpm will be higher.
 
Also, "idling" at 1000 RPM IS higher than idle anyway. Idle on an aircraft engine is usually around 600 rpm, which you usually test as part of the runup. So your questions actually change a little if you realize that we are already bumping up the power a little above a real idle, and "idling" at 1000.
 
Feel embarrassed to ask, but what's the difference between a choke and a mixture control. Don't they both control the ratio of fuel to air, one by letting more air and the other letting more fuel? Is that the only difference?
 
Feel embarrassed to ask, but what's the difference between a choke and a mixture control. Don't they both control the ratio of fuel to air, one by letting more air and the other letting more fuel? Is that the only difference?
In very general terms, a choke is a type of mixture control that temporarily enrichens the fuel mixture for starting only. A mixture control system enrichens by metering the fuel flow over a large operational spectrum to maintain engine performance.
 
But your standard mechanical choke carburetor on an American car had the process of flooring the gas pedal twice to engage the choke.
Why twice? What happened on the second time that didn't happen the first?
 
Back in the olden days when I was doing emissions work on carbureted vehicles for one of the big OEMs - the drill became automatic. Before turning the key, press the accelerator to the floor once then start. 10 seconds, put it in gear. For years, I would "set the choke" - even when I owned fuel injected vehicles. Years. Many years.

Pressing before the start "set" the choke and the "high cam" position on the throttle stop. After it started you could tap the pedal to bring the idle speed down to a lower (but not complete idle) "kick down" position.
 
Old car answer: the engine needed to get hot quickly to more completely vaporize the fuel.
the enriching of the fuel was done by a choke plate under/after the carburetor. There was a dedicated knob in the cab for this. Old cars would actually pipe hot exhaust onto (not into) the intake runners to heat them up and prevent fuel from pooling on the bottom.

A little less old car answer: get the engine coolant up to temp so not only would the fuel vaporize by also get the oil to the a lower viscosity. This would be before the advent of very low 0-5-10-20 oil viscosity. It was very common to let the car 'warm up' for 5-10 minutes before driving. Many intakes had a water passage to allow the intake to heat up. This 'choke' was initially nothing more than a bi-metallic spring. operating a butterfly. Later they switch to manifold pressure.

New car answer: emissions. OIl and additives of 0-5-10 weight mean they are ready to go without warming up. Also fuel injection means that there is no need to heat the intake to atomize fuel.
 
Feel embarrassed to ask, but what's the difference between a choke and a mixture control. Don't they both control the ratio of fuel to air, one by letting more air and the other letting more fuel? Is that the only difference?
It's how they work. A choke is a secondary butterfly upstream of the venturi to restrict air entering the carburstor... less air, richer mixture. It's only used for starting, until the engine warms up. Not common on airplanes for the reasons Dan gave. There are also "enricheners", which work like a choke from the pilot's perspective but function by adding a bit more fuel, again just for starting. A mixture control, OTOH, controls the amount of fuel going into the venturi, and can be used continuously in flight. Chokes and enricheners are usually used full on or full off, whereas a mixture control is adjusted as needed.
 
... Chokes and enricheners are usually used full on or full off, whereas a mixture control is adjusted as needed.
I have 2 motorcycles with choke (70s Guzzi and 80s Yamaha). I cold start them with full on and then gradually, as the bike warms up, move towards off. If it's not gradual the engine stalls (on both bikes) when I move from full on to full off, even after adequate warming.
 
Old car answer: the engine needed to get hot quickly to more completely vaporize the fuel.
the enriching of the fuel was done by a choke plate under/after the carburetor. There was a dedicated knob in the cab for this. Old cars would actually pipe hot exhaust onto (not into) the intake runners to heat them up and prevent fuel from pooling on the bottom.

A little less old car answer: get the engine coolant up to temp so not only would the fuel vaporize by also get the oil to the a lower viscosity. This would be before the advent of very low 0-5-10-20 oil viscosity. It was very common to let the car 'warm up' for 5-10 minutes before driving. Many intakes had a water passage to allow the intake to heat up. This 'choke' was initially nothing more than a bi-metallic spring. operating a butterfly. Later they switch to manifold pressure.

New car answer: emissions. OIl and additives of 0-5-10 weight mean they are ready to go without warming up. Also fuel injection means that there is no need to heat the intake to atomize fuel.
I'm just curious, what did you dislike about my response?
 
Back
Top