[NA]Anti-seize on lugnuts?

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Dave Taylor
Yeah I shouldn’t need it.
No one uses lugnuts anymore.
You will violate ___ rule or ___ warranty.
Just call the tire shop when you get a flat, ffs.
(Don’t you love how posting on public forums makes you anticipate the distracting answers first, lol.)

Ok-
2020 Tundra.
The dealer/tire shop always blindly airwrenches them on, to oh… 1500ft-lbs.
I need to know I can change a tire, some of the remote places I go.
I’m going to loosen, and appropriately re-tighten the nuts in anticipation of a tire change.
Anti-seize, or no?
I live in dusty, dry conditions.
 
I use anti-sieze on the lugnuts on my vehicles. I also use a torque wrench (and note that with antiseize, torque values will need to increase a little.) I always double check tire center's torquing of the lug nuts.

But more importantly, tell the tire shop to use a torque wrench or a torque stick / torque socket so the lugnuts are installed properly. They should always do that.

Back in the late 90's, I watched a few folks working at a dealership repair bay. Depending on mood, customer, or anything else that would make a mechanic cranky, they'd turn that pneumatic impact wrench up to high and crank on lugnuts so tight (or crossthread them) and then "call it done." Sure enough, a few years later, I had one lugnut on my 2003 Mustang Mach 1 that was cross-threaded with a pneumatic impact wrench so tightly that the stud spun in the hub and the dealership had to use a sawzall to cut off the tire and wheel to replace the stud and lugnut (all at my expense, of course.) This after having the car towed there because I couldn't change to the spare tire on the roadside because of the aforementioned cross-threaded lugnut.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
2020 Tundra.
The dealer/tire shop always blindly airwrenches them on, to oh… 1500ft-lbs.
I need to know I can change a tire, some of the remote places I go.
I’m going to loosen, and appropriately re-tighten the nuts in anticipation of a tire change.
Anti-seize, or no?
I live in dusty, dry conditions.
Click to expand...

when they do that, I hand them my lug wrench and tell them to use that to loosen the nuts.
 
I wouldn’t put a lug nut or lug bolt on without anti seize. In the environment I live in they would never come off again without the use of a torch if the vehicle spent any time on the roads in the winter.

Your environment may be different; corrosion concerns may not be a part of daily life like they are in the upper Midwest. If that is the case, I’d be less inclined to worry about it.
 
The number that seems sorta accepted for motorcycles is 75% of the spec'd torque if you use antisieze. Presume that would be on the threads and under the lug nut thrust surfaces too. I'm surprised it isn't spec'd more often as the preload/torque relationship should be much more consistent with antisieze.
 
Get yourself a good 18V impact gun and you'll have no issue with a lug nut while traveling.

An impact is part of my "standard kit" for traveling with my RV. I am too ****ing old to be messing around with turning levers by hand.

As to the comment about anti-seize on lugnuts, I'm not sure where these people are located. I've been driving on salty winter roads my entire life and I do not put anti-seize on lugnuts. I torque them by hand with a torque wrench when I install them and I remove them with an impact because, well, I always have one near me.
 
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Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
Anti-seize on the studs and around the hub where the wheel fits over it.
Click to expand...

Agree especially if you have aluminum wheels (dissimilar metals) you may want anti seize between the wheel and hub as well. I have pulled all the lug nuts and still needed a big hammer to get the wheel off due to the corrosion between the wheel and hub.

Brian
 
A little on the threads and a good faying coat on the face of the nut where it contacts the wheel. Last time the goobers at the tire shop did one of my trucks, three days later, I had to grind 6 out of 24 nuts off to do the brakes on all 4 corners. That was after they spend two hours trying to get them off first.
 
When a bolt is lubricated - less torque is required to achieve bolt axial load or tension. Reduction of torques for lubricated vs. dry bolts are indicated in the table below.

Lubricant Torque Reduction
(%)
Graphite 50 - 55
White Grease 35 - 45
SAE 30 oil 35 - 45
SAE 40 oil 30 - 40
No lube 0

Something I found on Google...:rolleyes:
 
AKBill said:
When a bolt is lubricated - less torque is required to achieve bolt axial load or tension. Reduction of torques for lubricated vs. dry bolts are indicated in the table below.

Lubricant Torque Reduction
(%)
Graphite 50 - 55
White Grease 35 - 45
SAE 30 oil 35 - 45
SAE 40 oil 30 - 40
No lube 0

Something I found on Google...:rolleyes:
Click to expand...
Yup. In the 1970s, for nine years, I worked in a wholesale shop selling wheels, studs, nuts and brake parts for heavy trucks and earthmoving equipment, and studs and nuts for passenger vehicles. One starts to learn something about this stuff. I sold a lot of studs.

The stud is put under tension when you tighten that nut. The toque spec is for dry threads and is intended to get the stud to stretch a bit, within its elastic limit, so that it keeps that wheel on securely. Overtightening the nuts often pulls the stud through its yield point, and now it isn't elastic anymore. It's brittle. With the various loads on while driving, it is subject to failure, and if one stud fails, the load it was carrying is transferred to the studs on either side of it, and now they're probably going to fail, too, since they were likely also overtightened. Stud stretch is only part of it; you can deform the threads under such pressure. Look at them under a magnifier.

Adding anti-seize to the studs throws a wild card into the whole thing, and you'll overstress those studs. Beware. Most shops are now using torque wrenches for liability reasons. I use one when I change my tires, and never have any hassle getting the nuts off. And they don't come loose. And salt doesn't bother them. Yes, some anti-seize between the aluminum wheel's hub bore and the hub pilot is good.

Never-Seize is a graphite lube. Very slippery stuff. Easily a 50% change in tension per unit torque.
 
brcase said:
Agree especially if you have aluminum wheels (dissimilar metals) you may want anti seize between the wheel and hub as well.
Click to expand...


Dan Thomas said:
Yes, some anti-seize between the aluminum wheel's hub bore and the hub pilot is good.
Click to expand...

I may have mentioned this before, but a few years back one of the aluminum wheels on our 1993 Toyota Land Cruise was seriously stuck on. Pounding on it with a sledgehammer via a 4x4 had no effect. Google suggested loosening each bolt about 1/16”, driving the car and swerving back and forth until I get a clunk. It worked.

That said, never an issue with the wheel nuts/studs themselves. Rotate my tires myself with a torque wrench and never used any antiseize on them. But a thin coat of something between the wheel and the hub is prudent. Something like Corrosion-X seems ideally suited.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
Yeah I shouldn’t need it.
No one uses lugnuts anymore.
You will violate ___ rule or ___ warranty.
Just call the tire shop when you get a flat, ffs.
(Don’t you love how posting on public forums makes you anticipate the distracting answers first, lol.)

Ok-
2020 Tundra.
The dealer/tire shop always blindly airwrenches them on, to oh… 1500ft-lbs.
I need to know I can change a tire, some of the remote places I go.
I’m going to loosen, and appropriately re-tighten the nuts in anticipation of a tire change.
Anti-seize, or no?
I live in dusty, dry conditions.
Click to expand...

No I don't use it on the fleet of trucks I have maintained.


I don't use it or anything on wheel studs.
 
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FastEddieB said:
Torque specs for lug nuts are generally assuming dry threads. If you use antiseize at that spec you run the risk of stretching the bolt or stud. So use less, but deciding how much less is problematical.
Click to expand...

yep...this

A couple years out of college (Mechanical Engineering),having taken extra courses in machine design which in part included a decent amount of study about threaded fasteners
+ having basically grown up under the tutilage of a jack or all trades but uneducated shadetree mechanic...and have rebuilt boat engines, replaced transmissions in cars, and all sorts of other repair types stuff....
Anyway, a couple years out of college I kinda thought I knew pretty much everything there is to know about tightening a lug nut.
At work, where I was a Maintenance Engineer for a large paper mill, I sat through an all day course that people from a threaded fastener factory put on about the topic for our millwrights and maintenance department
THAT was the experience that finally made me understand that there are things you know, things you know you don't know, and then there is things that you don't know you don't know.
Anyway, one of the many things we learned about was just how easy even a little lubrication...such as rubbing a screw, or your fingers, across your forehead and 'accidentally' lubricating threads and then using a dry thread torque spec. We did some hands on practice to prove it.
Even re-using a dirty nut can take you to a place I've heard called Star Trek Engineering..... "going where no man has gone before, into the unknown..."
 
oh, if you're not familiar...look up a thing called a torque stick, used on pneumatic impact wrenches.
After having tire shops bend rims from uneven and grossly over torquing lugs....forever making what was a smooth ride, not.... I always ask them to use a torque wrench or at least torque sticks.
 
brcase said:
Agree especially if you have aluminum wheels (dissimilar metals) you may want anti seize between the wheel and hub as well. I have pulled all the lug nuts and still needed a big hammer to get the wheel off due to the corrosion between the wheel and hub.

Brian
Click to expand...
Here is a better way to deal with rusted on wheels: Loosen all the nuts on the wheel leaving about an 1/8" gap between the wheel and the nut then go for a drive. Hard braking, speed bumps at a moderate speed, and sharp turns will loosen the wheel without damage to the wheel.
 
kshaw said:
Here is a better way to deal with rusted on wheels: Loosen all the nuts on the wheel leaving about an 1/8" gap between the wheel and the nut then go for a drive. Hard braking, speed bumps at a moderate speed, and sharp turns will loosen the wheel without damage to the wheel.
Click to expand...
Assuming the tire isn't flat.
 
A bigger problem, if you own a recent Ford product, is swollen lug nuts. I ran into this when I tried to do a brake job on my Escape. About half of the lug nuts would no longer work with my 19mm socket. I was able to remove most of them with 20mm and 21mm sockets. Two of them required use of a lug nut extractor.
 
I dont have the service manual to find the dry torque value.
Is it much different from pickup to pickup?
Anyone have a common value?
 
kshaw said:
A bigger problem, if you own a recent Ford product, is swollen lug nuts. I ran into this when I tried to do a brake job on my Escape. About half of the lug nuts would no longer work with my 19mm socket. I was able to remove most of them with 20mm and 21mm sockets. Two of them required use of a lug nut extractor.
Click to expand...

Having dealt with this a lot at work, it seems like it is usually brought on by someone using either a worn out/oversized socket and/or only getting the socket partially onto the lugnut before pulling the trigger on the impact gun. Usually, I find the best way to deal with them is to hammer the correct size socket onto them, remove from vehicle, then use a punch, hammer, and vice to remove the lugnut from the socket - then the important part - throw the lugnut away and install a new one.

When I say that I have dealt with it a lot at work, I feel like I need to give a sense of magnitude; there was one calendar year that I personally burned through more than 365 sets of tires - all on Ford vehicles, most of which I mounted and installed (no point in balancing when they will only survive a few minutes).
 
Brad W said:
yep...this

A couple years out of college (Mechanical Engineering),having taken extra courses in machine design which in part included a decent amount of study about threaded fasteners
+ having basically grown up under the tutilage of a jack or all trades but uneducated shadetree mechanic...and have rebuilt boat engines, replaced transmissions in cars, and all sorts of other repair types stuff....
Anyway, a couple years out of college I kinda thought I knew pretty much everything there is to know about tightening a lug nut.
At work, where I was a Maintenance Engineer for a large paper mill, I sat through an all day course that people from a threaded fastener factory put on about the topic for our millwrights and maintenance department
THAT was the experience that finally made me understand that there are things you know, things you know you don't know, and then there is things that you don't know you don't know.
Anyway, one of the many things we learned about was just how easy even a little lubrication...such as rubbing a screw, or your fingers, across your forehead and 'accidentally' lubricating threads and then using a dry thread torque spec. We did some hands on practice to prove it.
Even re-using a dirty nut can take you to a place I've heard called Star Trek Engineering..... "going where no man has gone before, into the unknown..."
Click to expand...
That is analogous to why Mike Busch says it is virtually impossible to correctly torque cylinder nuts while the engine is in the aircraft. There, the problem is the opposite. The torque values are based upon very wet cylinder nut lubed with a specific lubricant, and tightened in an exact fashion. Tightening fasteners is a very complicated thing. I use a little oil on the lug nuts, but I know it's wrong. Design specs are dry torque, and that gives you the proper bolt stretch.
 
Not all cylinder nuts are to be torqued dry..some specify a light film of oil applied to the threads.

Regarding lug nuts: I had issues with the tire store a few years ago...over- tightening my lug nuts on my XJ-8 to the point I could not get them off even standing on my lug wrench. The book specified 80ft lbs....they were using 200psi on a big impact wrench.
 
Doug Reid said:
Not all cylinder nuts are to be torqued dry..some specify a light film of oil applied to the threads.

Regarding lug nuts: I had issues with the tire store a few years ago...over- tightening my lug nuts on my XJ-8 to the point I could not get them off even standing on my lug wrench. The book specified 80ft lbs....they were using 200psi on a big impact wrench.
Click to expand...
in my experience shops that do that sort of thing seem to make no attempt at snugging them evenly either..... they just zip zip zip around in a circle...on pass
so they over torque the first nut, then by the time they get around to the opposite side and over torque them it brings the first up even tighter....and forever after brings a little shimmy into your life.....
 
Here is a good rule of thumb chart for stud torques..

*If you cannot find the vehicle manufacturer's recommended torque spec, you can use the following as a guide.

Hardware Bolt or Stud Size Typical Torque Range in Ft/Lbs Minimum Number of Turns of Hardware Engagement
12 x 1.5 mm 70 - 80 ft/lbs 6.5 turns
12 x 1.25 mm 70 - 80 8
14 x 1.5 mm 85 - 90 7.5
14 x 1.25 mm 85 - 90 9
7/16 in. 70 - 80 9
1/2 in. 75 - 85 8
9/16 in. 135 - 145 8
 
I was guilty of oil and anti seize use in the early days. I really did not see any problems with it's use at the time.
I learned later that is not recommend and stop using it a long time ago. They don't even use it on the hubs from the factory. It can be a real problem getting a 3-4 year old wheels off for brake service. This tool solves it for some wheels.
IMG_75391.jpg

IMG_75381.jpg

IMG_75401.jpg
 
Doug Reid said:
Not all cylinder nuts are to be torqued dry..some specify a light film of oil applied to the threads.

Regarding lug nuts: I had issues with the tire store a few years ago...over- tightening my lug nuts on my XJ-8 to the point I could not get them off even standing on my lug wrench. The book specified 80ft lbs....they were using 200psi on a big impact wrench.
Click to expand...
Yup. From Continental's Standard Practices Manual we get this:

upload_2022-1-23_10-26-31.png

From the Lycoming Direct Drive Overhaul Manual:

upload_2022-1-23_10-32-52.png

Some very specific stud lubing instructions to get the proper stud tension at the specified torques. Using lubes different from these could lead to trouble. Using no lube could lead to trouble. The through-studs clamps the main bearing saddles together, a rather critical function. Loose bearings are no joke.
 
Back to the original subject, I do use one drop of motor oil on each lug nut with a built in swivel washer. It throw a little oil at first and looks like I oiled the studs. No oil anywhere else.
 
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ok...I'm a bit surprised that nobody has commented yet about how tenaciously messy that anti-seize stuff is. In the paper mill we used to joke that all it takes is for one drop to get on you, and within the day you'll find it on everything you have...and when I was travelling for work, one drop anywhere on me and by the next day there will be a little bit on everything in my entire suitcase.

I remember one of the millwrights in the first paper mill I worked at, would apply a thin coat to almost every mating surface on anything he worked on....especially things like the joining surfaces between machinery feet and the base plates. Seems like if you walked past within 5 ft of his equipment you'd get it on you.....
 
I've been rotating my own tires on all my cars and trucks for almost 30 years. I've never used anti-seize. Assuming we're talking a normal daily-driver type automobile here, doing regular tire rotations following the maintenance schedule should keep them easy enough to remove.

I also don't use a torque wrench. Oh the humanity! I tighten them with the lug wrench that I'm going to have in the trunk, until they're as tight as I would want them to be if I had to remove them with the same lug wrench. Have yet to have a wheel fall off.

In fact, the only problem I've had was when a shop cross-threaded one when doing a tire change. And apparently weakened the lug too, because the next time I took that one off, after quite a fight the lug itself sheared off.
 
RussR said:
I've been rotating my own tires on all my cars and trucks for almost 30 years. I've never used anti-seize. Assuming we're talking a normal daily-driver type automobile here, doing regular tire rotations following the maintenance schedule should keep them easy enough to remove.

I also don't use a torque wrench. Oh the humanity! I tighten them with the lug wrench that I'm going to have in the trunk, until they're as tight as I would want them to be if I had to remove them with the same lug wrench. Have yet to have a wheel fall off.

In fact, the only problem I've had was when a shop cross-threaded one when doing a tire change. And apparently weakened the lug too, because the next time I took that one off, after quite a fight the lug itself sheared off.
Click to expand...
Yeah, that. Although I have started using a torque wrench in the last few years. If I’m able, I’ll give the lugs, lug nuts, and/or studs a quick shot of brake or carb cleaner before re-mounting the wheels.
 
Matthew Johnson said:
Having dealt with this a lot at work, it seems like it is usually brought on by someone using either a worn out/oversized socket and/or only getting the socket partially onto the lugnut before pulling the trigger on the impact gun. Usually, I find the best way to deal with them is to hammer the correct size socket onto them, remove from vehicle, then use a punch, hammer, and vice to remove the lugnut from the socket - then the important part - throw the lugnut away and install a new one.

When I say that I have dealt with it a lot at work, I feel like I need to give a sense of magnitude; there was one calendar year that I personally burned through more than 365 sets of tires - all on Ford vehicles, most of which I mounted and installed (no point in balancing when they will only survive a few minutes).
Click to expand...
My sockets were pristine impact deep sockets and I was using a breaker bar to remove the nuts. I believe that the problem is that the nuts were steel covered with a stainless steel cover. The inside steel on a couple of these appeared to have a lot of corrosion. I am guessing that the problem is either water leaking into the inside of the nut or dissimilar metal corrosion. Anyway, Ford is not doing much to resolve the problem. I did replace the damaged lugnuts at about $5 each.
 
I often use my Ingersol Rand air impact wrench for both removal and installation of lug nuts. The IR model that I have has an adjustable torque for both removing and tightening. I use full torque for removal and the lowest setting for tightening which gives you about 70 foot pounds torque, then I use a torque wrench for final tightening. You can safely use an impact wrench on lugnuts if you know how to use your tool.
 
Wow! That got quite a response! Now what's everyone's opinion on torque wrench types (beam/dial vs click type). Remember Continental says to apply torque for 5 seconds. I don't see how that can be done with a clicker type, yet many swear by them.
 
Brad W said:
ok...I'm a bit surprised that nobody has commented yet about how tenaciously messy that anti-seize stuff is. In the paper mill we used to joke that all it takes is for one drop to get on you, and within the day you'll find it on everything you have...and when I was travelling for work, one drop anywhere on me and by the next day there will be a little bit on everything in my entire suitcase.

I remember one of the millwrights in the first paper mill I worked at, would apply a thin coat to almost every mating surface on anything he worked on....especially things like the joining surfaces between machinery feet and the base plates. Seems like if you walked past within 5 ft of his equipment you'd get it on you.....
Click to expand...
Yup. Graphite and powdered aluminum are about the messiest things there are. Mix them with a bit of grease, get it on your fingers, and it's instantly everywhere. You find out how often you touch your face......

upload_2022-1-23_20-43-15.png
 
I vote click torque wrench. I have two. The standard size is a Snap-On. The small one is an off brand -- TekTon.

The automotive silver-colored nickel-based anti-seize paste is not so messy. I use a bare finger to smear it on spark plug threads. It wipes right off. Use nitrile gloves if you don't want to soil your hands.
 
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