N/A Max towing without trailer brakes

[Kevin16587]

http://drivinglaws.aaa.com/tag/trailer-brakes/

Not having brakes when they are required or having poorly maintained or adjusted brakes could potentially open you up to some major civil and/or criminal liability issues if a collision occurs. I've provided testimony in court on this very topic and the term "gross negligence" is one you want to avoid. Believe me.


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[denverpilot]

http://drivinglaws.aaa.com/tag/trailer-brakes/

Not having brakes when they are required or having poorly maintained or adjusted brakes could potentially open you up to some major civil and/or criminal liability issues if a collision occurs. I've provided testimony in court on this very topic and the term "gross negligence" is one you want to avoid. Believe me.


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Especially in your State. Multiple reports of your State giving tickets to RVers towing above their vehicle door sticker limits, after being weighed in roadside stops, and you guys have some goofy rules on speed limits for vehicles towing things that create significant revenue for the State. Lots of money involved in that stuff.

 

[Tarheelpilot]

Virginia and NC do their damndest to impersonate yankee states.

I grew up in NC. That place has changed a lot over the years. It's not my home any more. It's turned into one big C.A.R.Y

 

[3393RP]

The salt water reacts with the electronic components in the brake drums, it has nothing to do with whether or not they are used during loading/unloading. It's just a simple corrosion issue. If he's a fresh-water fisherman, he won't likely have any issue. It's the same reason that the salt water guys use galvanized trailers almost exclusively because untreated steel will rust out quickly, but the fresh water painted trailers will last for 50 years.

I'm not aware of any trailer brakes that have "electronic" drums. Perhaps you meant "electric".

There are trailer disc brakes available that have cadmium plated calipers, brass pucks, and plated or stainless steel hardware, along with stainless steel rotors. As long as they are rinsed after use in saltwater, they operate pretty much trouble free.

Anyone towing a load over 3,000 lbs without brakes is asking for trouble. Yeah, it can be done, but it's a really poor idea.

Painted boat trailers lasting 50 years? That's nonsense. If they are constructed with mild steel tubing it isn't painted internally, and they rust from the inside out. I've been boating for forty years, and have yet to see a trailer with completely sealed frames. Besides that, the support structures for the bunks and fenders rust away after ten years.

 

[kgruber]

Boat trailer brakes last exactly one launch. After that, they are rusted shut.

 

[SoonerAviator]

I'm not aware of any trailer brakes that have "electronic" drums. Perhaps you meant "electric".

There are trailer disc brakes available that have cadmium plated calipers, brass pucks, and plated or stainless steel hardware, along with stainless steel rotors. As long as they are rinsed after use in saltwater, they operate pretty much trouble free.

Anyone towing a load over 3,000 lbs without brakes is asking for trouble. Yeah, it can be done, but it's a really poor idea.

Painted boat trailers lasting 50 years? That's nonsense. If they are constructed with mild steel tubing it isn't painted internally, and they rust from the inside out. I've been boating for forty years, and have yet to see a trailer with completely sealed frames. Besides that, the support structures for the bunks and fenders rust away after ten years.

Yes, I meant electric. I am well aware that there are all sorts of upgraded components available for trailers (disc brakes, etc). As I mentioned, the disc-brake with an electric-over-hydraulic actuator is the best of both worlds. However, I'd say that the trailer outfitter trying to cut costs is more to blame than the boaters themselves. Most boaters don't know what they don't know in regards to trailers and their associated components. I had a painted trailer (exterior surface, not interior) under my boat that was an original 1976 model, which barely even had surface rust in a few spots. While it does rust from the inside out, it was in great condition, including all of it's support structures and even the original leaf springs. The caveat, is that it was only dunked in fresh water a dozen times a year for 40 years. You bring saltwater into the mix, and the trailer would not have fared so well. Hence why those operating in a saltwater environment where the brakes are immersed in saltwater would be well-served to have hydraulic brakes (either drum or disc) in order to extend the life of braking components versus electric drums.

Towing over 3K lbs without brakes is only asking for trouble if you're doing it in a manner which makes it dangerous. Towing a heavy load without trailer brakes at 35mph for 10 miles down a county road is just fine. Towing at 70mph down a busy interstate or through the mountains is a different matter. There is certainly a lot of variability between tow vehicle capability, trailer weight, and type of terrain/topography. Telling the farmer out in BFE, KS that he needs trailer brakes to move his John Deere 10 miles down the road to the dealer for service will likely get you a colorful response. Towing without trailer brakes is done all of the time, and rarely does it involve accidents. An intelligent person can evaluate the variables and circumstances to determine if doing so will pose an unacceptable risk. It certainly goes against the law in many states, but setting the limit at an arbitrary 3Klbs for any vehicle doesn't make it safe at 3K but not safe at 3,001 lbs.

 

[Kevin16587]

Especially in your State. Multiple reports of your State giving tickets to RVers towing above their vehicle door sticker limits, after being weighed in roadside stops, and you guys have some goofy rules on speed limits for vehicles towing things that create significant revenue for the State. Lots of money involved in that stuff.

No such thing as a CA vehicle code section that specifically prohibits exceeding the vehicle's GVWR. That could be a civil issue if something happens. The expensive weight ticket in CA is exceeding the vehicle's DECLARED GVWR but that doesn't apply to RVs (4000.6 VC). I've never heard of an RV being weighed for any purpose other than to enforce tire weight ratings (not super expensive). Most citations related to brakes on any vehicle are correctable "fix-it" tickets. Those are $25. Definitely ain't going to balance the budget with those. I'd love to see links to "multiple reports" of RV drivers getting weight tickets in CA.


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[denverpilot]

No such thing as a CA vehicle code section that specifically prohibits exceeding the vehicle's GVWR. That could be a civil issue if something happens. The expensive weight ticket in CA is exceeding the vehicle's DECLARED GVWR but that doesn't apply to RVs (4000.6 VC). I've never heard of an RV being weighed for any purpose other than to enforce tire weight ratings (not super expensive). Most citations related to brakes on any vehicle are correctable "fix-it" tickets. Those are $25. Definitely ain't going to balance the budget with those. I'd love to see links to "multiple reports" of RV drivers getting weight tickets in CA.

A few pop up every year on a couple RV specific forums I'm on. But of course, it's the Internet... so who knows. I considered it "a bunch" since we usually only see them from a few States and the sample size of members on those forums per State is relatively low, so seeing a handful tends to be a "big deal". But maybe the few who are being ticketed or whatever, are just more likely to post because they're mad about it. LOL.

 

[Kevin16587]

A few pop up every year on a couple RV specific forums I'm on. But of course, it's the Internet... so who knows. I considered it "a bunch" since we usually only see them from a few States and the sample size of members on those forums per State is relatively low, so seeing a handful tends to be a "big deal". But maybe the few who are being ticketed or whatever, are just more likely to post because they're mad about it. LOL.

A stop I made several years ago on a truck pulling a monster toy hauler RV ended up being discussed on a RV Internet forum. I wrote a fix-it ticket to the driver for a driver's license violation. We also discussed weights and other topics because of the large tow vehicle he was driving. As you can imagine the topic spun out of control and went way off into left field.

Edited to add that the state doesn't get any revenue from traffic citations. The money goes to the county or city in which the citation is issued.

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[denverpilot]

Edited to add that the state doesn't get any revenue from traffic citations. The money goes to the county or city in which the citation is issued.

State as in "The State" I suppose, then. It could go to Mars, for all anyone knows.

 

[dell30rb]

I just bought a new 24 foot pontoon boat with a galvanized trailer. The dealer is an old friend and when I bought it, he explained he doesn't order brakes on the galvanized trailers, since people use them for salt water launches and the brakes don't last. Seemed reasonable to me, I towed it home with an F150, and to the beach with an F-250 and it was fine.

Pontoon boats aren't all that heavy and if its used in saltwater at all, great idea to skip the brakes if you can get away with it. I tow a 7500lb saltwater boat though and that thing does need brakes. Unfortunately it has drums / surge which does work but the drum guts have to be replaced every 2 years. Its a task that I am not fond of. I have busted my knuckles a few times working on that damn trailer.

However there is good news. Several companies make high quality stainless disk brake sets which can actually last a very long time in the salt with minimal maintenance. Bad news they are almost $1000 per axle.

Regarding street trailers, the electric brakes work well with minimal maintenance and they are cheap too. No reason not to have those. I have a 10,000lb car hauler with a 21 foot deck... its got brakes on all of the wheels. The built-in brake controller on my F150 does a great job managing it, and its a real pleasure to use.

 

[FormerHangie]

While it's always nice to be legal, it's better to be functional. Case in point, on Monday I was driving home in my Fusion to Atlanta from Ocala, Florida, when a heavy rainshower popped up. I was in the rightmost of the three lanes, and backed off a little as the visibility was getting bad. Through the rain I could see that traffic had come to a complete stop, and got on the brakes moderately hard. I had no issues getting stopped, but wasn't too sure that all of my fellow motorists would be able to do the same, so I looked up in my mirror and saw a 1 ton Ram that was hauling a stock trailer bearing down. At this point I'm thinking he's not going to get stopped, so I put my left foot on the floorboard, grabbed the steering wheel by the bottom with both hands, but not too tightly, pulled my elbows in and pressed myself into the seat a moderate amount, closed my eyes and waited for the impact. After things quieted down, I got out to see what had happened. Turns out he went off of the road rather than piling into me, and was in a patch of brush with the truck jackknifed. Did he have trailer brakes? I don't know, but whatever he had was not sufficient for the way he was operating that vehicle and trailer. His truck is destroyed, his trailer, which fortunately was empty, is probably also destroyed, and his passenger got a trip to the hospital for observation. Did I get out unscathed? No, but that's a topic for another thread,

 

[Matthew K]

that's a topic for another thread,

I'd be interested in hearing it.

 

[denverpilot]

While it's always nice to be legal, it's better to be functional. Case in point, on Monday I was driving home in my Fusion to Atlanta from Ocala, Florida, when a heavy rainshower popped up. I was in the rightmost of the three lanes, and backed off a little as the visibility was getting bad. Through the rain I could see that traffic had come to a complete stop, and got on the brakes moderately hard. I had no issues getting stopped, but wasn't too sure that all of my fellow motorists would be able to do the same, so I looked up in my mirror and saw a 1 ton Ram that was hauling a stock trailer bearing down. At this point I'm thinking he's not going to get stopped, so I put my left foot on the floorboard, grabbed the steering wheel by the bottom with both hands, but not too tightly, pulled my elbows in and pressed myself into the seat a moderate amount, closed my eyes and waited for the impact. After things quieted down, I got out to see what had happened. Turns out he went off of the road rather than piling into me, and was in a patch of brush with the truck jackknifed. Did he have trailer brakes? I don't know, but whatever he had was not sufficient for the way he was operating that vehicle and trailer. His truck is destroyed, his trailer, which fortunately was empty, is probably also destroyed, and his passenger got a trip to the hospital for observation. Did I get out unscathed? No, but that's a topic for another thread,

Yeah. When towing heavy you always have to assume you'll have to bring the rig to a complete stop at any moment. I've had to fire the ABS and nearly lock up the trailer brakes once in the rain with the 12,500 lb trailer on, and it was not an experience I want to repeat.

Guy with a lawnmower trailered behind an F-150, probably fatigued, nighttime, came into my lane to make a right turn from the center lane and forgot he had the trailer on behind him. Literally forgot it was back there and tried to put it into my left front quarter panel during his lane change.

Exhaust brake is putting, ABS pulsing, and I'm just hoping I can slow enough that when we finally tangle it's not going to jackknife my trailer and smash me through his truck and trailer with all the momentum. Somehow I kept it straight and got it stopped and he just went on into the WalMart parking lot like he never saw it happen in his mirrors, which I'm sure he didn't.

I had to pull into the next parking lot both to check all the tires and also just pant for a sec.

 

[Kevin16587]

While it's always nice to be legal, it's better to be functional,

Functional = Legal


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[mkosmo]

This.^^^

Years ago I borrowed my mom's Silverado 2500 (gas) to pick up a mustang (unfortunately the one by Ford, not North American...) on a rented Uhaul car hauler. The trailer had an emergency brake but no normal brakes. When we got to the west side of the SR 2 summit (w/b over the WA Cascades) we had to stop a couple times to let the brakes cool. Nearly lost them once. Unless I'm towing a log splitter or a small motorcycle trailer I want brakes on it. It's not just what's comfortable for normal driving, it's what happens to the trailer when the truck towing it dynamites re brakes for the unexpected traffic hazard, red light runner, etc.

The U-Haul car carriers (two axle, at least) have had hydraulic surge brakes as long as I can remember, at least.

 

[weilke]

The U-Haul car carriers (two axle, at least) have had hydraulic surge brakes as long as I can remember, at least.

Yup. Never had an issue with them not working.

The dolly doesn't have brakes. I dolly-towed a car with my little Nissan pickup a couple of months ago. The only time I noticed the load was during an emergency stop on wet pavement.

 

[FormerHangie]

I'd be interested in hearing it.

It's here: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...-highway-crash-takes-so-long-to-clear.103561/

 

[FormerHangie]

Functional = Legal


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What I was getting at is even if your state standards aren't very stringent, it's still your responsibility to have adequate braking. That guy in the truck/trailer who was following me wrote off his entire rig because he couldn't get stopped. Whether the equipment wasn't sufficient or he was just following too closely I don't know, but whatever it was cost him an lot of money, and his passenger a trip to the emergency room.

 

[Bill]

Yxhaust brake is putting, ABS pulsing, and I'm just hoping I can slow enough that when we finally tangle it's not going to jackknife my trailer and smash me through his truck and trailer with all the momentum. Somehow I kept it straight and got it stopped and he just went on into the WalMart parking lot like he never saw it happen in his mirrors, which I'm sure he didn't.

The U-Haul car carriers (two axle, at least) have had hydraulic surge brakes as long as I can remember, at least.

A number of years back I had a 4000# car on a u-haul car carrier like the above, U-haul with surge brakes. Was on I-40 west of Knoxville, about to take the ramp to go south on I-75. A guy decided he needed that ramp, and pulled right in front of me. The trouble was, I was overtaking him at about +15 (multi lane exit, two lanes continued on to 40, two lanes onto 75) when he jumped right in front. I hit the brakes and the F-150 was deep into the ABS and the U-haul trailer locked up, putting out a giant cloud of blue smoke! I barely missed him. About 10mi from home I started getting a lot of vibration from the trailer, but since I was close, I continued home. It turned out that when I smoked the trailer tires it damaged the retread on one of the tires, it was loose and flapping. Fun stuff.

 

[Bill]

Whether the equipment wasn't sufficient or he was just following too closely I don't know, but whatever it was cost him an lot of money, and his passenger a trip to the emergency room.

Education always costs something.

 

[Zeldman]

Yesterday I saw a 2 seater BMW convertible towing a 4X8 UHaul trailer at 75MPH on the interstate.

I am fairly sure UHaul does not rent a trailer to be pulled by a small convertible, or any convertable.

Anyway, the bumper of that car was about 3 inches off the road.

I am sure the people in the car thought it would be safe.

 

[Clark1961]

Yesterday I saw a 2 seater BMW convertible towing a 4X8 UHaul trailer at 75MPH on the interstate.

I am fairly sure UHaul does not rent a trailer to be pulled by a small convertible, or any convertable.

Anyway, the bumper of that car was about 3 inches off the road.

I am sure the people in the car thought it would be safe.

Any real indication the people in the car were capable of and motivated to have a thought?

 

[Zeldman]

Any real indication the people in the car were capable of and motivated to have a thought?

Ya got me there, although the car did have California plates on it and was heading west....

 

[denverpilot]

No more heavy towing for me for a while. The fifth wheel was dropped off at a dealer to consign it today.

Was fun to see the Cummins doing what Cummins do best... and to get the boost up above 25 lbs for the first time since we put the trailer out to pasture last fall.

Someone's going to get a nice used trailer. We just weren't using it enough and schedules changed drastically after we bought it.

 

[Matthew K]

No more heavy towing for me for a while. The fifth wheel was dropped off at a dealer to consign it today.

Was fun to see the Cummins doing what Cummins do best... and to get the boost up above 25 lbs for the first time since we put the trailer out to pasture last fall.

Someone's going to get a nice used trailer. We just weren't using it enough and schedules changed drastically after we bought it.

I've always liked the dually version of my truck

 

[Matthew]

Yesterday I saw a 2 seater BMW convertible towing a 4X8 UHaul trailer at 75MPH on the interstate.

I am fairly sure UHaul does not rent a trailer to be pulled by a small convertible, or any convertable.

Anyway, the bumper of that car was about 3 inches off the road.

I am sure the people in the car thought it would be safe.

I've used UHaul for a few years. The 4x8 UHaul weighs 850 empty. UHaul is supposed to verify the towing capacity of the tow vehicle and hitch before allowing you to rent it.

How those things get loaded after they are are off the UHaul lot is out of their control.

The only thing I saw about convertibles was where it says: "If your towing vehicle is an SUV, it must be equipped with a hard top." The pictures on their website even show people happily driving a convertible in front of a UHaul.

According to their website, a BMW 2 series (228) shows up as OK. I don't know what the BMW POH says about it, though:

https://www.uhaul.com/reservations/RatesTrailers.aspx