spiderweb
Final Approach
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Ben
If you trained without GPS as some of us here have done, you'd know why.
My X-Cs were all done with pilotage. I wasn't even allowed to use the VOR.
My student got lost...
- Thread starter jesse
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If you trained without GPS as some of us here have done, you'd know why.
My X-Cs were all done with pilotage. I wasn't even allowed to use the VOR.
Everskyward
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Everskyward
In Jesse's scenario you still would have the VOR(s) so you could locate yourself that way. If you were really worried and out of ideas you could land, but landing at an airport you don't know anything about has its hazards too.
Mafoo
Cleared for Takeoff
I have trained without GPS. This has nothing to do with Navigation.
Things start breaking in my plane, I care. You old timmers might not, but I do.
Call me a sissy for not liking electrical failures while I fly. But I am landing.
Mafoo
Cleared for Takeoff
I listed half a dozen things I would do first. Call Flight following would be one.
I know most all non towered airports are on frequencies of 122 - 123. I would start listening for the chatter, and if I hear a strong one, I know I am close to that airport.
And of course, VOR. However if GPS is broken, why not break that as well?
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Everskyward
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Everskyward
Are you asking why Jesse didn't fail the VOR too?
azure
Final Approach
Not only that, but in October, the sun is never anywhere close to being "overhead" from the latitude of Nebraska. You would pretty well have to be flying due north to not be able to see it from the cockpit in the middle of the day... which is why when Jesse said "no use at all", I assumed he meant the sky was overcast.
Swampfox201
Line Up and Wait
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Todd W.
During my solo cross country from Kearney to Lincoln I remember getting lost. Fearing I was getting close to Lincolns class C I went down and read a water tower. Problem solved.
Mafoo I don't think anyone is questioning your decision to land if you are uncomfortable it's just that some of us are old enough to have trained before GPS so losing it really is a non issue.
Mafoo I don't think anyone is questioning your decision to land if you are uncomfortable it's just that some of us are old enough to have trained before GPS so losing it really is a non issue.
jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
That might work well for determining your tri-state area. On a typical day you'll hear "strong" transmissions from airports 80 miles or more. It's not uncommon here to hear "strong" transmissions on CTAF frequencies at pattern altitude from airports in the middle of Iowa (150 miles).
L.Adamson
Pre-takeoff checklist
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L.Adamson
Yes..............I'm a GPS fanatic!
And why not? At least I'll know exactly where I am, until that last second, when someone attempts to tell me my GPSs are no longer working. Of course, they really haven't failed me since 1994. I'm one of those who maintains good antenna connections, and locations. Also carry an always operating backup. No VOR navs in my plane. Actually, I do have a handheld nav/com, that I'd have to dig up.
Do I think it's a good thing to leave the GPS home, once and a while for cross countries? Of course not. I think it's silly. What would I be trying to prove? I prefer having up to date weather, exact locations, and exact boundaries of all the military & Class B airspaces around here. I prefer knowing weather at the destination, hundreds of miles ahead of time. I like the idea of having TFR's overlaid on the moving map.
Yes, I'm the guy that's spent many years flying to "crash spots" (CFIT), just to test the validity of moving map GPS. There are lots of "crash spots". Far to many of these, in fact. Too bad that these pilots didn't have a good moving map GPS with terrain databases. Maybe they left it home, that day...
I may be getting old, but there is no "old school" in me. As far as I'm concerned, old school is just what it is. And that's a former form of electronic navigation, that's been superseded by a much more robust system, that's capable of giving the pilot far more real time information, than was ever thought of..........in those good "old days."
P.S. ---Don't be stupid & just follow the magenta line. Do some planning with charts & other aids. Then load the plan into the GPS. And while you're at it, follow along with a chart of some kind. It's awful tough to get lost that way.
L.Adamson
And why not? At least I'll know exactly where I am, until that last second, when someone attempts to tell me my GPSs are no longer working. Of course, they really haven't failed me since 1994. I'm one of those who maintains good antenna connections, and locations. Also carry an always operating backup. No VOR navs in my plane. Actually, I do have a handheld nav/com, that I'd have to dig up.
Do I think it's a good thing to leave the GPS home, once and a while for cross countries? Of course not. I think it's silly. What would I be trying to prove? I prefer having up to date weather, exact locations, and exact boundaries of all the military & Class B airspaces around here. I prefer knowing weather at the destination, hundreds of miles ahead of time. I like the idea of having TFR's overlaid on the moving map.
Yes, I'm the guy that's spent many years flying to "crash spots" (CFIT), just to test the validity of moving map GPS. There are lots of "crash spots". Far to many of these, in fact. Too bad that these pilots didn't have a good moving map GPS with terrain databases. Maybe they left it home, that day...
I may be getting old, but there is no "old school" in me. As far as I'm concerned, old school is just what it is. And that's a former form of electronic navigation, that's been superseded by a much more robust system, that's capable of giving the pilot far more real time information, than was ever thought of..........in those good "old days."
P.S. ---Don't be stupid & just follow the magenta line. Do some planning with charts & other aids. Then load the plan into the GPS. And while you're at it, follow along with a chart of some kind. It's awful tough to get lost that way.
L.Adamson
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
Is your Brain broken? NOPE!
How about:
Climb.
Use Eyeball to find a road and a town....you're VFR, remember...or the Connecticut River, or Mt. Washington, or Squaw, or Lake Winnepesaukee, or, oh nevermind. Where you live, you have visual landmarks up the wazoo.
Get out a sectional, identify the town by the water-tower if you have to.
Or you can do the "blonde" thing on 121.5 "OMG OMG OMG I'm lost help help...". I've heard that, too.
Why everyone knows a New Hampsha' native is nevah lost.....!
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jesse
Touchdown! Greaser!
Or you can do the "blonde" thing on 121.5 "OMG OMG OMG I'm lost help help...". I've heard that, too.
At which point you're likely to get a 709 ride once the controllers save you.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
...which would be quite appropriate, to the OMG OMG OMG...
I have listened in on one of those "help me, I'm lost" deals on Guard; not laughing at the guy (he was a student on his long XC), he was wise enough to figure out he had trouble, called and confessed, and between the nearest approach control facility and couple of nearby pilots, he was put back in touch with his position. Embarrassing? Maybe, but he was calm, did respond cogently, and I bet he never does *that* again!
L.Adamson
Pre-takeoff checklist
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L.Adamson
Soooooo....................did his instructor tell him, to leave the GPS out of the plane? Is there a reason, we still have to get lost?
Good questions. I have no idea, was only a drive-by (OK, "fly-by") listener. Monitoring 121.5 like we are all supposed to do. Right?
ja_user
Pattern Altitude
I did my XC's in a 172 two years ago. On the Dual we did the first leg dead recon under the hood, 2nd leg was pilotage the whole way... 3rd leg was VOR..
When I went on my solo, I was allowed to turn the GPS on obviously, and use whatever I needed. But PIlotage is the most fun, no doubt about it for VFR...
Is it a little more work without the GPS to know within 10 feet of where you are? Sure.. Do you have better situational awareness when you aren't relying on the NRST button? I think so..
I could care less if GPS fails during VFR.. I will just pay more attention to where I am at, which is never a bad thing..
DeeG
Cleared for Takeoff
Oh the things my CFI used to do. You, sir, are evil! Love it!!!
I used to do something similar to one of my friends when I'd safety pilot for her. She would be doing NDB work, and I'd distract her and little by little, turn down the volume and eventually, shut the thing off.
It would take her a few minutes to figure out why the danged thing wasn't doing what it was supposed to be doing. One would think she would be paying attention the next time. nope. hahahahaha
Ah, I miss the good old days. Now everyone needs a GPS before they'll leave the pattern.
I used to do something similar to one of my friends when I'd safety pilot for her. She would be doing NDB work, and I'd distract her and little by little, turn down the volume and eventually, shut the thing off.
It would take her a few minutes to figure out why the danged thing wasn't doing what it was supposed to be doing. One would think she would be paying attention the next time. nope. hahahahaha
Ah, I miss the good old days. Now everyone needs a GPS before they'll leave the pattern.
DeeG
Cleared for Takeoff
You really need to put the toys away and go fly a plane that has no vacuum system in it. No DG, just basic engine instruments and a compass. Like our Stinson. It can be done. Its lots of fun at night over eastern Montana. You're pretty much IFR.
Mafoo
Cleared for Takeoff
Is your Brain broken? NOPE!
How about:
Climb.
Use Eyeball to find a road and a town....you're VFR, remember...or the Connecticut River, or Mt. Washington, or Squaw, or Lake Winnepesaukee, or, oh nevermind. Where you live, you have visual landmarks up the wazoo.
Get out a sectional, identify the town by the water-tower if you have to.
Or you can do the "blonde" thing on 121.5 "OMG OMG OMG I'm lost help help...". I've heard that, too.
Why everyone knows a New Hampsha' native is nevah lost.....!
How about going back and reading my first response. (#11)
Mafoo
Cleared for Takeoff
Sigh...
No one I guess is understanding my position. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH NAVIGATION!!!!
How many times, and how many ways can I say it?
Things in my plane are breaking. I don't care if I know where I am or not... I am landing.
I think it's great that you did it, my CFI did it to me more than once. I was so lost on my stage 3 check (right between the shortish solo XC and the long one) that it wasn't even funny, though that CFI thought it was quite amusing since I was only about 2 miles off. I did my solo XC's with GPS, but mainly used VORs on my routes. I really can't thank my CFI enough for all the time under the hood getting me "lost" and spending entire lessons on trips to obscure airstrips in within 30 minutes of home and getting me lost going there. This will stick with me forever.
Climb
Communicate
Confess
Comply
Climb
Communicate
Confess
Comply
TangoWhiskey
Touchdown! Greaser!
And, knowing that my instruments might be lying (DG off Compass heading, for example), add "Crosscheck" to that list.
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
I always had another "C" - conserve. Conserve fuel, throttle back, slow down. No sense in getting loster, faster.
Tex_Mike
Pre-takeoff checklist
Mafoo- I think the point of the exercise was to teach the student how to get un-lost (if that is a real word). DGs need to be adjusted. I am sure adjusting the instrument is on your run up check list. The DG doesn't have to "break" to be inaccurate. What if the student was in a plane without a GPS and he failed to calibrate the DG on a regular basis. Say the student was flying over West Texas for hours on end and didn't realize how far off course he (she) was? Perhaps the skills learned in this exercise would help put the pilot back on course or prevent him from getting lost in the first place.
Mafoo
Cleared for Takeoff
That's a different senario. If I didn't have any GPS with me ever, then the information at hand would be different.
It's like saying would I react differently if ATC was telling me to turn around or I will be shot out of the sky, if I had a radio or not?
If I didn't have a radio, I would not have enough equipment to know I was doing something wrong. If I am lost, and all of my GPS's fail, I know there is a very good chance I am somewhere I should not be.
One thing I have always liked about pilot training, is it's real world. I fly for fun, and I will never ever fly, without at least 2 GPS's. I can't imagine I will fly much at all without 3.
If I have more tools to tell me about the world around me, in a real life senario, I should get to use them.
That's why earlier in this thread, I said if the exercise was to get me lost, and use a chart to figure out where I am, then cool. That would be fun, and I think I would do rather well with it.
However if the point was to put me in a real world situation, and have to use a real world solution, it's a discredited exercise, if all the real world information I will always have available to me is voided (like knowing none of my GPS's work).
And Matthew, great comment. I think someone else recommended slowing down. However if flying around until you figure out where you are is the only acceptable solution, I am not sure how much advantage there is to slowing down.
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flyingmoose
Pattern Altitude
You will "Never" fly without a gps? You may very well miss out on some opportunities to fly because you don't have it with you. I bet you take that back someday. Lots of cool old birds to fly without even electrical systems. I know you will say mine has batteries, but that is no fun. To each his own. I like the techniques used in this thread and I don't allow students to bring a gps. Just my thing, but after your checkride we can learn all you want about gps.
rottydaddy
En-Route
The method I was taught (on training flights near or under the NYC "super-B" airspace without GPS) was to fly around in a circle when lost, even if your intention is to call ATC and ask them to find you with radar, or take a minute to figure out why the GPS or other navaid is acting up, or to use a working navaid to plot your position.
Slowing down helps minimize the radius of that circle, which minimizes the chance you will fly somewhere you shouldn't. Another reason to make that your default maneuver while getting "un-lost" is that a very common pilotage failure scenario for VFR flights is when ceilings are low and/or vis is poor... until you know where you are, the smaller your circle, the less likely you are to bump into anything.
In that scenario, if the wiser choice seems to be to head for some patch of blue sky before figuring out where you are, or to follow a road or RR track in hopes of coming to a town with an airport, going slower, again, gives you wiggle room in case some obstacle appears out of the haze, mist or clouds.
Mafoo
Cleared for Takeoff
I can fly in an old bird with a cell phone, and an iPad.
The scenario was not "you have no GPS on board", it was "you have three of them, but none of them work for some reason".
In the real world, that means more then "Ok, let's fly in unknown space without GPS".
The fact that they don't work, is useful information one can use to make a decision. Information I am glad I have.
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
Same lessons here, even though I'm in wide open KS. Time to add another "C" - circle. Use that time to take a deep breath, get your bearings, and make a plan.
VanDy
Cleared for Takeoff
Most airspace is listed on sectionals, and you can always look up TFR's and NOTAMS before you take off.
Gadgets are nice and have their perks, but i don't have to worry about my sectional failing, unless it blows out the window.
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Mafoo
Cleared for Takeoff
Great comments, plus I would think you would want to conserve fuel. Slow would do that.
Mafoo
Cleared for Takeoff
Good thing forums were not around when airplanes first got radios. I am sure we would be having these conversations.
If it means you're a better aviator because only babies want more situational awareness then you. Fine. You're a better aviator.
I for one like that the accident rate as technology has improved has gone down. And call be stupid, but I want to take advantage of it.
P.S. And I will never turn my GPS on durring my checkride. But if durring it, he fails every instrument I have, and asks me what I would do, I would tell him the first thing is reach for my backup radio. Second thing is reach for my iPad with foreflight.
If be honest fails me, so be it.
If it means you're a better aviator because only babies want more situational awareness then you. Fine. You're a better aviator.
I for one like that the accident rate as technology has improved has gone down. And call be stupid, but I want to take advantage of it.
P.S. And I will never turn my GPS on durring my checkride. But if durring it, he fails every instrument I have, and asks me what I would do, I would tell him the first thing is reach for my backup radio. Second thing is reach for my iPad with foreflight.
If be honest fails me, so be it.
Geico266
Touchdown! Greaser!
I'm late to the party, and I'm sure this will get lost in the shuffle of 110 posts, but Jesse.... you are mean! 
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ja_user
Pattern Altitude
He asked me why I didn't turn it on, I said it made it too easy... He said "Fair enough".
I think I know what you are saying, and the GPS's have certainly made things easier...
But no way am I staying on the ground, in VFR conditions just because I can't take a GPS with me...
I think I know what you are saying, and the GPS's have certainly made things easier...
But no way am I staying on the ground, in VFR conditions just because I can't take a GPS with me...
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
What is this GPS of which you speak?
ja_user
Pattern Altitude
It is that black box in the rental, that they will "fix at the next annual"
Mafoo
Cleared for Takeoff
Again, we are talking real world. It's been over 5 years since I have stepped out of my home, and been anywhere without a GPS on me.
I would not stay home because I didn't have one either. I just never will be without one. It's just reality.
Sunday I went flying, and didn't use GPS for anything. However if I get lost like the senario put forth here, in real life, I am not going to say "no, that's to easy, let me fly around until I figure out where I am".
To me, the most responsible aviator, is the one who gets un-lost the quickest. i will use whatever tools I have available to me, to reach that goal.
ChrisK
En-Route
Sure, but this was a training scenario designed to encourage the student to use a specific troubleshooting methodology. GPS had no place in this specific training scenario, and tends to cause the pilot to fixate. I know because I use Foreflight and / or Naviator on every flight, and if it told me to head south when I wanted to go North I can see myself doing just that If you want to teach your student to periodically check the DG, this was a wonderfully constructed scenario and I'm so glad my CFI didn't do that to me because I would probably still be flying.
This was a fun story and interesting thread.
If you want to teach your student to periodically check the DG, this was a wonderfully constructed scenario and I'm so glad my CFI didn't do that to me because I would probably still be flying.This was a fun story and interesting thread.
Matthew
Touchdown! Greaser!
Is that what that gaping hole is?
--
I've never flown anywhere other than KS/MO, so I don't know about terrain features, or lack of them, anywhere else. Around here, all the section lines run N/S and E/W, there aren't too many highways to cause confusion, and the reservoirs can be seen from space, and just about every small town seems to have an airport within a couple miles. Yeah, when vis is low, it's going to be tough to figure out your location if you get lost. But a quick VOR triangulation and a look at the compass to see what direction you are facing, and with that and watch you should be able to find your way back to civilization. Then use your eyes and sectional to finish the job.
I do like the GPS, though.