My father-in-law flipped out at me for taking my wife up during an Airmet Tango

A couple of my former Naval Aviator buddies have always told me, "The USAF knows how to take all the fun out of flying." That has been my experience with many USAF IPs. Those guys are, of the opinion f you didn't learn to fly in the Air Force, you can't possibly be a safe pilot. Oh and that Navy guys are reckless...

Just my observations. I was a ground pounder Army puke. :D
 
CC268 said:
Wow that's a little bizarre. Arizona pretty much has a permanent Airmet Tango during the summer lol. So unless you don't fly in the summer...your gonna be flying in some turbulence.
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That and mountain obscuration are common in Colorado too. Sigments I pay more attention.
 
N3368K said:
A couple of my former Naval Aviator buddies have always told me, "The USAF knows how to take all the fun out of flying." That has been my experience with many USAF IPs. Those guys are, of the opinion f you didn't learn to fly in the Air Force, you can't possibly be a safe pilot. Oh and that Navy guys are reckless...

Just my observations. I was a ground pounder Army puke. :D
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It is a completely different mindset between USAF and Navy/USMC.

The Navy emphasizes initiative and empowering its pilots to make decisions as they see fit.

The USAF de-emphasizes initiative and thinking for yourself. Autonomy is a bad word in the AF. If it isn't explicitly permitted in the applicable AF publications, then it is assumed to be forbidden.

That's probably the OP's FIL's problem. If the Cessna manual doesn't specifically authorize flight in moderate turbulence, the OP must therefore be writing checks his body can't cash.

I would never have survived the Air Force.
 
According to the Aviation Weather center in Kansas City, Missouri AIRMET TANGO is for moderate turbulence and surface winds of 30kts or more on the surface.

All AIRMETs are wide spread and may be hazardous to single engine light aircraft.

In my opinion AIRMET TANGO indicates that I need to look further into the weather at the airports where I am going to land and think about the terrain I am going to cross before making a decision to fly.

We often have AIRMET TANGO around Santa Maria and if the wind is blowing in the right direction it could indicate mountain wave activity nearby.

In my opinion moderate turbulence can turn into severe turbulence quickly and by definition severe turbulence is hazardous.
 
N3368K said:
A couple of my former Naval Aviator buddies have always told me, "The USAF knows how to take all the fun out of flying." That has been my experience with many USAF IPs. Those guys are, of the opinion f you didn't learn to fly in the Air Force, you can't possibly be a safe pilot. Oh and that Navy guys are reckless...
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I was going to help out a friend of mine who needed some adult role models and pilots in his CAP squadron. Knowing I was somewhat qualified he asked me to come by to a meeting. He - and the other four 'officers' - were all USAF IP's and trash haulers who ended up at the airlines. I could not get out of there fast enough - I knew there was no freaking way I would be a cultural fit in that organization.

I'm used to military discipline - even if it was almost 35 years ago - but this was typical USAF how the paperwork filled out is more important than the qualifications it is intended to reflect. Lots of mickey mouse BS. I invented a reasonable excuse - and never looked back.
 
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Vance Breese said:
A
In my opinion moderate turbulence can turn into severe turbulence quickly and by definition severe turbulence is hazardous.
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flying is hazardous. It's all in how you evaluate the risk - and what you have seen in similar conditions before. I'm 57 years old and have been following weather since I was in my late teens. I have better than average understanding the conditions that lead to dangerous turbulence. That said - the day I encountered severe turbulence - as that term is defined - I was not in a Tango airmet. There was not a tango airmet within 700nm of where I was.

A weather puke telling me something might happen is not the same as it actually happening. And 30 knots on the nose down a runway - is not gonna keep me from flying.

This is a CLEAR reason why - when we encounter significant turbulence - not merely chop - we need to report it to Flight Service and ATC - share and help each other. . . .
 
I flew my wife and friends from KFRG to KMVY yesterday. Aside from the heat and haze, it was a nice flight. No bumps. Little gusty on approach but mostly down the runway. I would have worried more about losing the horizon over the water than turb.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It is a completely different mindset between USAF and Navy/USMC.

The Navy emphasizes initiative and empowering its pilots to make decisions as they see fit.

The USAF de-emphasizes initiative and thinking for yourself. Autonomy is a bad word in the AF. If it isn't explicitly permitted in the applicable AF publications, then it is assumed to be forbidden.

That's probably the OP's FIL's problem. If the Cessna manual doesn't specifically authorize flight in moderate turbulence, the OP must therefore be writing checks his body can't cash.

I would never have survived the Air Force.
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This is complete BS...........
 
comanchepilot said:
I was going to help out a friend of mine who needed some adult role models and pilots in his CAP squadron. Knowing I was somewhat qualified he asked me to come by to a meeting. He - and the other four 'officers' - were all USAF IP's and trash haulers who ended up at the airlines. I could not get out of there fast enough - I knew there was no freaking way I would be a cultural fit in that organization.

I'm used to military discipline - even if it was almost 35 years ago - but this was typical USAF how the paperwork filled out is more important than the qualifications it is intended to reflect. Lots of mickey mouse BS. I invented a reasonable excuse - and never looked back.
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BS as well.........
 
To follow up on my first somewhat flippant post:

This was not about the decision you made to fly that day. This was an opportunity for him to get 'one up' on you in front of his daughter. In his mind this is an area where he can completely dominate you. It's no different from the big dog eating from the little dogs bowl.
 
arnoha said:
That's not a normal response. It reads OK, but if you dig deeper, it's accusative: "you're a risk taker". It's manipulative, with the "deeply cares" crap. There definitely barely constrained control issues in there. My first gut reaction to this is that this actually has nothing to do with your flight.

There's turbulence ahead, but it's not of the airborne variety...
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I'm a novice, a student with low hours.

But experienced with in laws...

A couple of points come to mind. First, you say you talk flying with him a lot, has he said things that indicate he has disdain for GA flying, private pilots? Does he seem to like you otherwise?

I'm thinking like arnoha that he was out of line with his actions, comments and follow ups trying to sow dissent between you and your wife. You could, totally up to you, give him the benefit of the doubt and allow that he maybe is over protective of his daughter and truly was worried and scared for her safety. That he reacted badly, but out of fear. If you decided to go that route, the only thing I would think might (or not) help, is in order to keep peace, sit down with him, and the weather charts and reports, and go over your evaluation with him. Let him know you had alternate routes picked out in case, and you had a good plan if it turned out the weather was worse than projected/reported. Ask him to point out where he thinks you were taking unreasonable risk.

And it cannot be just "because it could have been worse" as that is always the case isn't it? But it would require being humble, yet projecting that you honestly used best judgement, yet are open to new knowledge if he wants to share exactly why he thinks that flight was so risky. Also that you would never put your wife, or even yourself in a dangerous situation and you did your due diligence and made a decision.

The another alternative I can think of, is talking with your wife and letting her know that he is just wrong, and that she has to let him know she trusts your judgement, and that his comments are not wanted.

Third alternative, let it go, and simply do not keep him in the loop on future flight plans.
 
INTJ said:
This is complete BS...........
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Not really responding to the content of your post (I have no dog in this fight - just a lowly civilian pilot) but is your name based on your Myers Briggs personality type?
 
INTJ said:
This is complete BS...........
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What part do you think is BS?

If you are referring to the speculation on why the FIL was upset...that part was a joke.

But the description of USAF thinking vs Navy/USMC is very accurate.

Ask any AF pilot if a maneuver or operation isn't explicitly approved in the Dash 1, is he allowed to do it? I've spent enough time at Joint commands with Air Force guys to now they are trained to operate very differently.
 
Sounds exactly like my father in law was early in our marriage. I learned something from it:

Your wife is THE ONLY person that can end that overbearing behavior.

My poor wife is so nice, it is not in her nature to confront anyone. She's always agreeable and friendly to a fault. She eventually had to suck it up and tell Daddy that we will make our own decisions from here on out and that he needs to back off. Our relationship has been nothing but peachy ever since.
 
If LLWS isn't in the forecast the turbulence airment is almost a joke. Sounds like he's been pushing buttons for too long and is grumpy that you're out having all the fun.
 
I bet I know what would happen if he did get in one of those "death traps". He'd have to decide whether to keep up the Mr. Big Shot attitude and save face, or go ahead and let the smile fly and admit he was wrong.
 
LongRoadBob said:
I'm a novice, a student with low hours.

But experienced with in laws...

A couple of points come to mind. First, you say you talk flying with him a lot, has he said things that indicate he has disdain for GA flying, private pilots? Does he seem to like you otherwise?

I'm thinking like arnoha that he was out of line with his actions, comments and follow ups trying to sow dissent between you and your wife. You could, totally up to you, give him the benefit of the doubt and allow that he maybe is over protective of his daughter and truly was worried and scared for her safety. That he reacted badly, but out of fear. If you decided to go that route, the only thing I would think might (or not) help, is in order to keep peace, sit down with him, and the weather charts and reports, and go over your evaluation with him. Let him know you had alternate routes picked out in case, and you had a good plan if it turned out the weather was worse than projected/reported. Ask him to point out where he thinks you were taking unreasonable risk.

And it cannot be just "because it could have been worse" as that is always the case isn't it? But it would require being humble, yet projecting that you honestly used best judgement, yet are open to new knowledge if he wants to share exactly why he thinks that flight was so risky. Also that you would never put your wife, or even yourself in a dangerous situation and you did your due diligence and made a decision.

The another alternative I can think of, is talking with your wife and letting her know that he is just wrong, and that she has to let him know she trusts your judgement, and that his comments are not wanted.

Third alternative, let it go, and simply do not keep him in the loop on future flight plans.
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Sure, either that (^^^^^), or the FIL is simply a "pha'qwad"
 
Turbulence, like sh_t, happens.
Weather reports are like the AIM, advisory only. It just changes more often.
As a guy with four daughters, I know exactly what's driving the father-in-law.
But these are not kids, not minors, not fools who need to be protected from themselves.
Dear Dad, Back off. You can't protect them like you used to. All you can do is drive them away.

So sad to hear how far the fun factor has fallen at my old alma mater.
My time in the USAF was akin to the wild west. (Inside the USofA) If you were flying anything that started with an "F-", "A-", or "O-", as long as you didn't kill civilians, break too much glass, or destroy too many aircraft, nobody cared.
When we got to that little unpleasantness over in S.E.A., they didn't even care about the civilians.
Dog fighting with the Navy and Marines was encouraged, no one noticed if you flew under the occasional bridge, and screaming across the Gulf or West Texas at 10 ft of altitude at mach + was an everyday occurrence.
Even some of the Buff drivers were nuts. I recollect a flight of 4 - F-4Es coming across Tampa Bay at 200 ft of altitude when a Buff driver came up from behind and flew UNDER us.
That, my friends, can put the fear of God into you in a hurry.
 
Seriously though I doubt that the FIL is as ignorant as some of you think. Personally I think the FIL likely knows good and well that airmet tango is pretty benign. I think long before this instance the FIL's ego and "all knowing self" has been waiting on an opportunity to talk down to this amateur pilot SIL. His patience had probably gotten thin as he never saw a good opportunity...until his daughter opened the door with her question... then he pounced. I mean she asked so he's able to twist it however he feels.

Bottom line the FIL knows he's shoveling BS but thinks the daughter will buy it. I say she won't and this will backfire on him being involved in any future aviation discussion.

And if by some chance I'm wrong and the FIL truly believes what he's saying... sorry but he's an idiot of epic proportions.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Highly doubtful. Most of the AF guys I know would agree with my assessment of the difference between the services.
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I've spent about equal time in both and what you stated has been my experience. Some guys will push back and find a reason to disagree but there is a big difference in the approach to training and what each service expects of its pilots. Ask anyone who did their primary training with the opposite service and they will be able to tell you the difference.
 
Fearless Tower said:
What part do you think is BS?

If you are referring to the speculation on why the FIL was upset...that part was a joke.

But the description of USAF thinking vs Navy/USMC is very accurate.

Ask any AF pilot if a maneuver or operation isn't explicitly approved in the Dash 1, is he allowed to do it? I've spent enough time at Joint commands with Air Force guys to now they are trained to operate very differently.
Click to expand...

Your description of USAF thinking is pure BS. The USAF today is THE most dominant fighting force that has ever existed on this planet. I was an USAF pilot from 1984 to 2007. We were expected to know the rules--which we grumbled about--AND develop the judgement and situational awareness to known when to disregard those rules. Situational Awareness (SA) is job one in the USAF and the creativity of the USAF is without parallel. The simple truth is that if you cannot keep multiple competing and conflicting ideas and concepts in your head at the same time, you do NOT belong in the USAF.

How else do you figure out how to maneuver a slick C-130 against fighters and defeat all their weapons? Been there, done that. That was NOT written in the Dash One, nor in any of the other multitude of regs. How about barrel roll a T-38 at 150 kias? I made that up on the fly due to the sequential and rapid mistakes of students in two jets. That also wasn't written anywhere. The rules were there so guys without experience--and USN exchange officers (sorry, but that dig WAS called for :D)--could safely stumble through the right actions until they lived long enough to develop their own SA.

I was there working at HQ/AETC in the 90s when the USAF and USN integrated undergraduate training. I was the guy that showed the Navy how to figure the cost of training a grad so they'd know how much to charge the USAF. The short of all this was the USN guys being trained by the USAF have an very difficult time meeting USAF standards. Conversely, the USAF guys being trained by the USN thought it was a fun program, but they were behind their peers when they returned to the USAF.
 
Shepherd said:
Turbulence, like sh_t, happens.
Weather reports are like the AIM, advisory only. It just changes more often.
As a guy with four daughters, I know exactly what's driving the father-in-law.
But these are not kids, not minors, not fools who need to be protected from themselves.
Dear Dad, Back off. You can't protect them like you used to. All you can do is drive them away.

So sad to hear how far the fun factor has fallen at my old alma mater.
My time in the USAF was akin to the wild west. (Inside the USofA) If you were flying anything that started with an "F-", "A-", or "O-", as long as you didn't kill civilians, break too much glass, or destroy too many aircraft, nobody cared.
When we got to that little unpleasantness over in S.E.A., they didn't even care about the civilians.
Dog fighting with the Navy and Marines was encouraged, no one noticed if you flew under the occasional bridge, and screaming across the Gulf or West Texas at 10 ft of altitude at mach + was an everyday occurrence.
Even some of the Buff drivers were nuts. I recollect a flight of 4 - F-4Es coming across Tampa Bay at 200 ft of altitude when a Buff driver came up from behind and flew UNDER us.
That, my friends, can put the fear of God into you in a hurry.
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Best post of thread.
 
Concerning the father-in-law of the OP, he does seem over the top. I too am a FIL and my son-in-law is a now baby airline pilot flying for Skywest.

He actually had a shot at getting into the F-15 unit at PDX. On his first interview he was ranked 10 out of 300 applicants. If he had stayed with it they might have given him a chance. As part of the interview process he needed to get a letter of recommendation from a USAF/USAF retired guy. He had been dating my oldest daughter for about two years. I had him fly with me before writing the letter. He chose a light twin and flew well enough to pass USAF instructor standards--meaning he was already WAY overqualified for the Navy. ;)

Anyway, I approved him that day as a pilot and as a potential son-in-law, though it did take him two more years to close the deal.
 
arkvet said:
@INTJ all we really want to know is why you're shoveling such BS to your daughter regarding airmet tangos.
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??????????????????

My last flight was in a T-1 in 2004. A couple months ago I got my special issuance Class III, and will soon be getting back into flying. That is why I joined this site.
 
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Shepherd said:
Turbulence, like sh_t, happens.
Weather reports are like the AIM, advisory only. It just changes more often.
As a guy with four daughters, I know exactly what's driving the father-in-law.
But these are not kids, not minors, not fools who need to be protected from themselves.
Dear Dad, Back off. You can't protect them like you used to. All you can do is drive them away.

So sad to hear how far the fun factor has fallen at my old alma mater.
My time in the USAF was akin to the wild west. (Inside the USofA) If you were flying anything that started with an "F-", "A-", or "O-", as long as you didn't kill civilians, break too much glass, or destroy too many aircraft, nobody cared.
When we got to that little unpleasantness over in S.E.A., they didn't even care about the civilians.
Dog fighting with the Navy and Marines was encouraged, no one noticed if you flew under the occasional bridge, and screaming across the Gulf or West Texas at 10 ft of altitude at mach + was an everyday occurrence.
Even some of the Buff drivers were nuts. I recollect a flight of 4 - F-4Es coming across Tampa Bay at 200 ft of altitude when a Buff driver came up from behind and flew UNDER us.
That, my friends, can put the fear of God into you in a hurry.
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The USAF started cracking down on some of the fun stuff in 1986. The reason was it was costing too much to replace planes and pilots. I got spanked at one of--if not THE--the first joint USAF/USN/USA exercises after Goldwater-Nichols.

The VOQ at Roosey Roads is just a little off runway centerline and maybe 300' agl. The Navy started it. We'd be on the second floor balcony on the VOQ and watch A-7s fly by at eye-level. Not to be out done, we started having to look down at C-130s coming up the hill below first floor level. I was a young C-130 copilot and after a couple days of this it was again my turn to takeoff. I did as what had become standard. Clean up, stay low, and fly as close to the VOQ as possible. When we got back form our sortie The ALCE commander--a C-141 puke--was waiting for us and pulled each of us into his staff car for an interview. Our Det/CC--an crusty old Vietnam era C-130 driver, was also in the car.

The ALCE/CC asked what altitude we were when we flew over the VOQ. I said about 300 feet. 100% the truth. He didn't specify MSL or AGL. Maybe he didn't want to. Our punishment was we had to fly the bird with the gear stuck down for Roosey to Little Rock. Nothing official every happened, but the word was definitely out...........
 
arkvet said:
Seriously though I doubt that the FIL is as ignorant as some of you think. Personally I think the FIL likely knows good and well that airmet tango is pretty benign. I think long before this instance the FIL's ego and "all knowing self" has been waiting on an opportunity to talk down to this amateur pilot SIL. His patience had probably gotten thin as he never saw a good opportunity...until his daughter opened the door with her question... then he pounced. I mean she asked so he's able to twist it however he feels.

Bottom line the FIL knows he's shoveling BS but thinks the daughter will buy it. I say she won't and this will backfire on him being involved in any future aviation discussion.

And if by some chance I'm wrong and the FIL truly believes what he's saying... sorry but he's an idiot of epic proportions.
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Maybe he doesn't know much about AIRMET. From the wiki at least I thought this was telling...
"AIRMETs are broadcast on the ATIS at ATC facilities, and are referred to as Weather Advisories. AIRMETs are valid for six hours. NOTE: The definition has changed and no longer says "light aircraft"; AIRMETs are intended for all aircraft." also they by definition cover a WIDE aree where only a small part may be affected. That they note it used to say "lighter aircraft" and is now for all, maybe in his day they didn't get AIRMETs?


But beside that, I have a new argument for the FIL. OP should ask him, "really? So if you still flew with Delta, and they had a flight just like the one we took scheduled that my wife booked a seat on, and you were flying...you are telling me you would refuse to fly it, or Delta would have canceled it? Or that you would advise her to not use her ticket?" If he says "well at the flight levels it was better weather" then ask "pretend it was the same advisory for the FL you flew"

Because that wouldn't have happened, obviously.
 
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Late to the thread.

Your wife made a mistake. Your FIL really made a mistake.

You've reached out and said your peace. Now let it go.

They've both learned some things. She learned daddy both went off the handle and also probably isn't ever going to be impressed with your flying, something she probably wanted him to do.

He knows he probably just created such a stir that she won't be calling with flight planning information anymore and he may be scared enough by her flying GA that he knows he just missed his one and only shot to stop it. Wasn't going to happen anyway.

So they have enough info to figure it out. You just remain cordial and really you don't need to bring it up again unless he sticks his nose into your PIC abilities regularly or she keeps poking him with a stick saying you're going flying.

Or someone is stupid enough to bring it up over a family dinner. Oh lord. Hopefully not. If so, stay calm and ask someone to pass the potatoes. Haha.

Meanwhile... for your wife...

Make friends with pilots and SOs in your local area socially.

My wife over the years probably has phone numbers and contact info for at least ten people she could ask to evaluate whether or not I was doing something stupid in an airplane she knows I respect and she respects, and she knows personally.

In your case, your wife could text one of them instead of dear old dad, now that she knows he went off the handle on you. I'm sure she knows his admonition was questionable by now.

My wife could probably have almost all of my CFIs either via direct phone call or texting their spouses, contacted pretty quickly, and them calling MY phone to chew my ass, if she thought I was doing something way out of bounds or my judgment was impaired for whatever reason.

They'd call me and do it, too... if she contacted them with such a concern.

You want and need aviation friends like those. So does she. Long term.

To give dear old dad his due: He's seen some crap if he's flown as long as he has. And yes, you can and probably will make a bad weather decision someday. And his daughter might be aboard. And you're going to have to deal with it as PIC. And that scares the hell out of him. And might always.

Like I said. She needs to know your decisions were sound and based on good judgement. I think she knows. She also needs to not scare dad with GA flying stories. She probably knows that now, too. Live and learn.

You talked to him. He knows you want the best for his daughter. He doesn't think GA flying is the best. Everybody had their say. You're surprised. She's surprised.

Oh well. Dad doesn't need to be involved in your aviation adventures anymore. There's the boundary line. You found it.

Boundaries with in-laws. There's just certain things you don't discuss. Want a funny? My in-laws kept constantly asking why I worked in computers. Can't possibly be anything but just goofing off, right? Hints of : That's not a profession.

They slowly shut up as my salary grew well beyond all but one of their college educated kid's salaries (he's a banker who specialized in closing down banks during the economic downturn -- wow did he do alright! Ha.) and they started to realize I was in charge of multi-million dollar revenue projects in my 20s.

I didn't have to be peeved or even react to the ribbing at early family dinners. Just do the job and let them figure it out.

Their dinner conversations switched to picking on my poor wife to become a nurse practitioner and go beyond "just nursing" which she privately rolled her eyes at behind their backs. Of course she did go on to specialize in a specialty she loves and makes really good money at that compared to her early nursing days, and they mostly shut up when she came home with a Director of Nursing title for a while in-between. LOL.

Your conversations with her dad about flying will be quite different in a decade if he's still around.

Two decades you'll be telling him stories about modern avionics he never saw ever after he retires.

Life marches on.

But at least you found the taboo topic and the boundary. Ripped that band-aid off by accident.

It's too bad he doesn't like GA flying, but my in-laws don't like computers either. After 22 years married it no longer matters. And was only an annoyance once in a while 15 years ago. We learned quick to not talk about anything but the raises. Haha.
 
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