My engine quit on touchdown tonight (input from Cirrus pilots welcomed)

SixPapaCharlie

SixPapaCharlie

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Flew the family to dinner today and on the way back, I noticed Alt1 warning light was on.
I checked ALT 2 and it was charging. Everything seemed fine. so we kept on trucking. After maybe 5 minutes Alt1 light went off. I tested it and it showed a positive charge.

I know the plane has 2 and ALT 2 will charge and stop (Warning light comes on) based on RPM

As I am inbound, I am steadily slowing down and I see now the ALT2 light comes on which I don't worry about too much because I am at 40% power and I know it stops charging at lower RPM.

Base to final, the engine is hiccuping a bit (I think it was too rich for the low RPM) but still trying to remember all the details. This is not too uncommon. I tend to get this when I am too rich at low RPM

I crossed the numbers and got a "Low Voltage" alert.
The wheels touched and the engine quit.
If this had happened 2 minutes sooner, I would have been effed 9 ways from Sunday. It was very dark.

Fuel pump was on and I detected no electric anomalies.
I coasted to a turnoff and alerted the tower.

I went through the startup procedure and it fired up right away with no issue at all.
Taxi to parking and everything seemed perfect.

Any thoughts?
 
Interesting. What density altitude were you at? temperature?

My guess is the idle is set far to low. I always get alt 2, sometimes sbus warning after I touch down while I'm getting slow to turn off the runway. But never a rough engine. Winter or summertime.

Isn't your engine fuel injected? Is it possible when you leaned for cruise you never went back to full rich for landing and starved the engine?
 
Low voltage caused the boost pump to not supply enough fuel pressure?
 
This is going to sound odd, but hang with me a for a sec...

How old is the battery?

Warnings from both Alternators followed by a Low Voltage warning, sounds like you might have a battery that's close to dying, with a cell going bad. Or even just that needs connectors taken off and cleaned up.

Reason I say that is that it's the commonality between all three. A failing but not quite failed battery can drag the whole bus down and make both alternators work hard to try to recharge the not-rechargeable, leaving less available current for operating everything, especially at night with everything on.
 
alternators need power to run. When they are trying to put out more amps they need more power. If they are trying to charge a weak or dead battery and run landing lights they need more power. They were both trying to kick on and they killed the engine. Test your batteries.
 
yetti said:
alternators need power to run. When they are trying to put out more amps they need more power. If they are trying to charge a weak or dead battery and run landing lights they need more power. They were both trying to kick on and they killed the engine. Test your batteries.
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Based on what you are saying I think it might be clearer to state alternators use more power when producing amperage, placing a load on the engine.

That being said, I can't imagine this would have caused the engine to die. The maximum load a battery will accept is less than a hundred amps, and that's when it's almost dead or has an internal short. A short will soon produce enough heat and increased current to trip the battery circuit breaker.

However, even with a hundred amp load, the charging system is only drawing about 3.3 horsepower. That shouldn't be enough to stall the engine.

All this aside, a battery drawing enough amperage to stall an engine, an extreme occurrence and indication of a serious problem with the battery, almost certainly wouldn't have enough capacity to be able to immediately restart it.

.

denverpilot said:
A failing but not quite failed battery can drag the whole bus down and make both alternators work hard to try to recharge the not-rechargeable, leaving less available current for operating everything, especially at night with everything on.
Click to expand...

A battery with a dead short won't draw enough power to load two alternators to the point of causing an engine stall. A one hundred amp load on each alternator would consume about 6.6 horsepower. Beside that, if the battery is drawing that much current, it should trip the battery circuit breaker.

The most obvious consideration that negates this diagnosis is that a battery drawing enough continuous current to stall a 310 HP engine would have serious internal problems and would not have been able to restart it.

A low idle seems more likely to have been the cause. I'm not an A&P, but it seems reasonable to assume the recommended idle RPM setting includes an allowance for engine operating temperature variations and static electrical loads.

Even so, a one hundred amp load on the charging system represents about 1% of the engine's available power output, so I wouldn't think electrical system load variations produce a noticeable idle speed fluctuation and an increase in the possibility of an engine stall.

While all of this sounds good, the obvious indication that negates my low idle theory is that the ALT 1 indicator light came on at cruising speed.

So while I managed to write several paragraphs detailing my interpretation of the situation, it's probably all wrong.
 
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Out of fuel? Seriously, was a tank almost empty? Maybe the alt lights had nothing to do with it.
 
Hmmm, scary sheet.
I'm guessing idle set too low as well.
 
My plane died turning off runway yesterday also. Hasn't done that in quite awhile. Started right up. I had just done a very fast base and final at basically idle so figured it was that. Tower asked me to maintain speed as long as possible so I was close to 200 kts turning final and high. Had to throw out everything and get it slowed down. Usually use power to numbers.
 
mtnflyr said:
Interesting. What density altitude were you at? temperature?

My guess is the idle is set far to low. I always get alt 2, sometimes sbus warning after I touch down while I'm getting slow to turn off the runway. But never a rough engine. Winter or summertime.

Isn't your engine fuel injected? Is it possible when you leaned for cruise you never went back to full rich for landing and starved the engine?
Click to expand...


I don't go back to full rich for landing.
I increase mixture as I descend as needed.

Density altitude was either 3200 or 3600 I forget.
I was cruising at 5500 and getting the ALT1 alert.

Have you ever gotten an ALT1 before?
2 is one I see all the time so I am not overly concerned about that one.
 
Download the engine monitor data and go through it to see if there are any anomalies.
 
The plane is unairworthy, do not fly it until you get both these issues fixed. The engine issue is probably lack of maintenance and fuel injection system has not been adjusted in a long time. The electrical could just get a bad ground some place.
 
Theboys said:
My plane died turning off runway yesterday also. Hasn't done that in quite awhile. Started right up. I had just done a very fast base and final at basically idle so figured it was that. Tower asked me to maintain speed as long as possible so I was close to 200 kts turning final and high. Had to throw out everything and get it slowed down. Usually use power to numbers.
Click to expand...

Your airplane will not idle with the throttle closed? Your airplane is also unairworthy.
 
Clip4 said:
Your airplane will not idle with the throttle closed? Your airplane is also unairworthy.
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Just thinking of that kid with all the videos and dork bar shirt a few years back who got the call from FSDO after posting a video of a similar occurrence. Can't recall his name... Tony?

As I remember, they then went after the mechanic.
 
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If the plane weren't fuel injected, I would guess carb ice as the culprit. I have had a Warrior stall on the runway after landing on a 75 degree dewpoint.
 
Clip4 said:
The engine issue is probably lack of maintenance and fuel injection system has not been adjusted in a long time.
Click to expand...

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll say it again

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll say it again

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

.

You forgot to chuckle at the mention of a bad ground, that universally suggested cause of all intermittent electrical system issues.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll say it again

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...

Something's f'd up, I wouldn't trust that plane until I got to the bottom of it. Even though big bucks have been dropped on that engine recently more needs to be spent. You had the beginning of an accident chain and handled it. Break the chain now, which I understand you are working on, don't be lulled into complacency.

To the other poster whose engine hasn't to paraphrase, stalled in a while until now, your engine has a problem too, get it fixed, even the slightest squawk on an engine should be checked and fixed.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll say it again

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Click to expand...


Oh, does you car quit running when you get off the interstate or pull up to a traffic light too?

I fly a lot of different airplanes, none of their engines quit on short final and I would not get back in one that did until it was properly repaired.
 
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I don't disagree there is a problem and I have a call into my MX but this was a bold assessment:
"The engine issue is probably lack of maintenance and fuel injection system has not been adjusted in a long time"
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I don't disagree there is a problem and I have a call into my MX but this was a bold assessment:
"The engine issue is probably lack of maintenance and fuel injection system has ain't not been adjusted in a long time"
Click to expand...

You asked what those people with Cirrus experience had to say. A neglected fuel injection system is the culprit for your issue describe and a result of poor maint. Sorry that sticks to you or your shop.
 
I'm thinking it's a fuel issue of some kind but I could be wrong.

Could your idle be set too low, or were you potentially too lean upon approach and landing?
Also possible the fuel spiders could be developing some type of blockage and the low power setting isn't allowing enough fuel to pass through.

Wish I could give better insight. Times like these call for a more experienced opinion.. @Tom-D @Dan Thomas
 
rpadula said:
It knows you bought another plane. :devil:
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I can see the video now: How to break the bad news to a Cirrus (A Satire)
scene 1:
@SixPapaCharlie : I'm Sorry MV, but I'm flying another airplane. It's not you, it's me. And I might as well tell you all the bad news at once... it's a Grumman.
 
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Ravioli said:
I can see the video now: How to break the bad news to a Cirrus (A Satire)
scene 1:
Bryan: I'm Sorry MV, but I'm flying another airplane. It's not you, it's me. And I might as well tell you all the bad news at once... it's a Grumman.
Click to expand...
It would pull the chute for you, if you told it that during flight. Be careful
 
You said, "Fuel pump was on."

Fuel pump in Continentals is for priming and emergency use only; unless the fuel injection system on the Cirrus is entirely different (I believe it is not), having the electric fuel pump on when you reduce power can and most definitely will cause the engine to stop, especially when you are on the runway rolling out and can be really embarrassed about it.

Not that it EVER happened to me.

At Sugar Land.

Not me.

---

Seriously, separate your issues. Nothing in the electrical system will ever have any effect on the engine stumbling or stopping; but conincidence of issues can confuse you.
 
SCCutler said:
You said, "Fuel pump was on."

Fuel pump in Continentals is for priming and emergency use only; unless the fuel injection system on the Cirrus is entirely different (I believe it is not), having the electric fuel pump on when you reduce power can and most definitely will cause the engine to stop, especially when you are on the runway rolling out and can be really embarrassed about it.

Not that it EVER happened to me.

At Sugar Land.

Not me.

---

Seriously, separate your issues. Nothing in the electrical system will ever have any effect on the engine stumbling or stopping; but conincidence of issues can confuse you.
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It must be different on the Cirrus then. The fuel pump is definitely meant to be on during landing - it is part of the pre-landing checklist. Many Cirrus pilots leave the fuel pump on from start to shut down - you're not really supposed to have it on during cruise but other than wear on the pump itself, there is no real harm to it and it helps suppress vapor lock issues from hot fuel.
 
Clip4 said:
You asked what those people with Cirrus experience had to say. A neglected fuel injection system is the culprit for your issue describe and a result of poor maint. Sorry that sticks to you or your shop.
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Perhaps you can explain why you state that it is neglect instead of operator error, mechanical failure, or even contamination?
 
SCCutler said:
You said, "Fuel pump was on."

Fuel pump in Continentals is for priming and emergency use only; unless the fuel injection system on the Cirrus is entirely different (I believe it is not), having the electric fuel pump on when you reduce power can and most definitely will cause the engine to stop, especially when you are on the runway rolling out and can be really embarrassed about it.

Not that it EVER happened to me.

At Sugar Land.

Not me.

---

Seriously, separate your issues. Nothing in the electrical system will ever have any effect on the engine stumbling or stopping; but conincidence of issues can confuse you.
Click to expand...
It didn't happen to me at a Leadville fly-in...got it going again before coasting to a stop. Landing light switch is right beside the fuel pump switch.
 
Clark1961 said:
Perhaps you can explain why you state that it is neglect instead of operator error, mechanical failure, or even contamination?
Click to expand...

Because he states his experience is a rough running engine on flights prior to the flight the engine stopped.

"Base to final, the engine is hiccuping a bit (I think it was too rich for the low RPM) but still trying to remember all the details. This is not too uncommon."

Airplanes give the pilot indications of problems if the pilot will just take notice and have them addressed.
 
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Clip4 said:
Because he states his experience is a rough running engine on flights prior to the flight the engine stopped.
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I'd say that is an invalid conclusion on your part then. If the engine always ran rough then I would agree with you. Bryan did not say the engine always ran rough. A slight bit of unstable operation at low power can be very difficult to recreate in a shop. How many hours of shop time do you want to pay for just to hear "could not duplicate"? Furthermore you have no evidence that his maintenance folks do not check the fuel setup annually as recommended by Continental. In short there is not enough information to conclude neglect. You are guessing and doing it in a negative way.
 
When did the engine stop on landing? How fast was the plane moving? If the plane was still moving at a fast clip, it will likely not be idle settings. The reason is the airspeed will still be pushing the prop keeping the engine speed above idle. In addition, when the plane started right up after leaving the runway, you likely went to idle multiple times as you taxied, again offering evidence that this is not likely a cause.
The first place I would check is the fuel flow, you may be over rich, and I would check this first because it is easy to check.
What I suspect is actually weak mags, which were overcome by the rich fuel condition.

The alternator issue is a red herring in terms of the engine cutting off. Chase that as a separate issue.

Good luck,

Tim
 
SCCutler said:
You said, "Fuel pump was on."

Fuel pump in Continentals is for priming and emergency use only; unless the fuel injection system on the Cirrus is entirely different (I believe it is not), having the electric fuel pump on when you reduce power can and most definitely will cause the engine to stop, especially when you are on the runway rolling out and can be really embarrassed about it.
Click to expand...
Twin Cessna's have two Continentals and the fuel pumps are required to be on Low during take-off and landings (high altitude as well).
 
Also, neglect of some aspect of the fuel system does not necessarily mean the plane isn't being taken to a mechanic on schedule with the associated expenditure of $$$.

I had a significant gear extension issue that was related to a particular component never being serviced or lubed per schedule since new. Original factory seal was unbroken.
 
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