MV-22B Osprey down, SoCal, Fatal

Sadly, our jostling over the "veracity" of news organizations aside, the death toll is now 5. Apparently the nuclear weaponry was lost, as none was in the wreckage. RIP.
 
I would rather not know something, than think that I do, but have it all wrong.
What about knowing something and knowing that it might be wrong?
 
What about knowing something and knowing that it might be wrong?

What about striving to change the things I can, leaving alone the things I cannot change, and the God given wisdom to know the difference? I stay far away from any of the "for profit" so called news sources. They are in competition for money and power so they must attract as many folks as they can to their outlets.

Doing that means they must have more sensation, fascination, and the inside scoop that the others haven't found. If it means slander and lies, so be it. We have been taught that it is better to beg forgiveness than ask permission. We also know that the damage done from a salacious lie is never going to be taken away by an "oops" apology three weeks later (if ever it comes).
 
I don't know why we allow them the protections we do. They're corporations, not citizens. 1A protections for corporations need to be restricted to the printed page. Not electronic or broadcast media. If they say anything prefaced without the disclaimer of "pretty much we're making the following up.." it should be freely open to lawsuit, just on the basis that it's misleading and annoying.

If they want to make money, do it like Jersey Shore or WWF and let everyone know right up front it's just entertainment. Give them big 80's haircuts or giant gold belt buckles instead of the tailored suits.
 
I don't know why we allow them the protections we do. They're corporations, not citizens. 1A protections for corporations need to be restricted to the printed page. Not electronic or broadcast media. If they say anything prefaced without the disclaimer of "pretty much we're making the following up.." it should be freely open to lawsuit, just on the basis that it's misleading and annoying.

If they want to make money, do it like Jersey Shore or WWF and let everyone know right up front it's just entertainment. Give them big 80's haircuts or giant gold belt buckles instead of the tailored suits.
Shockingly, the stories are written by humans. Every single one of them.
 
Shockingly, the stories are written by humans. Every single one of them.

:) They are. At least the ones in mainstream US media are. But those stories aren't owned by people, they're owned by a corp. And they're not written for the purpose of providing accurate information. They're written to maintain ratings. They're also not presented by the authors. Unless you get down to a small town AM radio station, the stories are written by one team, and presented by people who have nice haircuts. My point being it's entertainment. Like watching a Snoopy special, except with worse writing and acting, and that it's pretending to be news. It's the Springer show, with a weather clip and a pet story, and without throwing chairs or off-duty Chicago cops.
 
:) They are. At least the ones in mainstream US media are. But those stories aren't owned by people, they're owned by a corp. And they're not written for the purpose of providing accurate information. They're written to maintain ratings. They're also not presented by the authors. Unless you get down to a small town AM radio station, the stories are written by one team, and presented by people who have nice haircuts. My point being it's entertainment. Like watching a Snoopy special, except with worse writing and acting, and that it's pretending to be news. It's the Springer show, with a weather clip and a pet story, and without throwing chairs or off-duty Chicago cops.


Jerry Springer isn't that bad ;)
 
:) They are. At least the ones in mainstream US media are. But those stories aren't owned by people, they're owned by a corp. And they're not written for the purpose of providing accurate information. They're written to maintain ratings. They're also not presented by the authors. Unless you get down to a small town AM radio station, the stories are written by one team, and presented by people who have nice haircuts. My point being it's entertainment. Like watching a Snoopy special, except with worse writing and acting, and that it's pretending to be news. It's the Springer show, with a weather clip and a pet story, and without throwing chairs or off-duty Chicago cops.
First question in Journalism 101: What is the primary purpose of a news organization? And the answer is: to make a profit. Nothing has ever changed; no new story is without bias, and never has been.
 
First question in Journalism 101: What is the primary purpose of a news organization? And the answer is: to make a profit. Nothing has ever changed; no new story is without bias, and never has been.

You're absolutely right, except that the ethics have continued to go down, and there don't seem to be any counter-balances to that in our current system. I think we need to start looking at that. Corporations don't have inherent at all, and shouldn't be allowed to hide behind protections designed for individuals and small businesses.

Back to this example... The truth is that there are 5 Marines gone. They're not going to spend another holiday with their families, never walk through a doorway to say hello to them. That's tragic. That someone decided that this story wasn't significant enough, so that they needed to add the possibility of a loss of a strategic weapon to the story, is sad. In the 80's, the Weekly World News had enough ethics not to run a story like that. Now, it's routine from what in the past would be considered respectable news media.

Anyway, sorry for the thread hijack. This should be about the Marines, and the aircraft, not about the people profiting from their deaths.
 
First and foremost, to those lost…RIP and Thank You for your Service to our Country…

You know, they used to say helicopters dropped like a rock. Well that true if you loose a rotor blade even the tail rotor, but this Osprey, well, IT IS A ROCK. It may have been a good idea on paper, but the dam thing needs a full airframe parachute. Even a Chinook can auto rotate, so I’ve been told. The fact they haven’t let POTUS fly in one has to tell you something.
 
First and foremost, to those lost…RIP and Thank You for your Service to our Country…

You know, they used to say helicopters dropped like a rock. Well that true if you loose a rotor blade even the tail rotor, but this Osprey, well, IT IS A ROCK. It may have been a good idea on paper, but the dam thing needs a full airframe parachute. Even a Chinook can auto rotate, so I’ve been told. The fact they haven’t let POTUS fly in one has to tell you something.
POTUS generally flies on only two types for 95% of travel.
 
Even a Chinook can auto rotate, so I’ve been told
FYI: It does. The V22 ability not so much but the AW609 civilian tiltrotor can auto quite well. However when it comes to what helicopters are used by the HMX-1, its due to certain protocols more than model types with the current aircraft consisting of special versons ofthe H-3 and H-60.
 
FYI: It does. The V22 ability not so much but the AW609 civilian tiltrotor can auto quite well. However when it comes to what helicopters are used by the HMX-1, its due to certain protocols more than model types with the current aircraft consisting of special versons ofthe H-3 and H-60.
Twenty years in and AW609 isn't certified, yikes. I searched and could find nothing on the Osprey's auto capabilities; the AW609 has a 15.9 PSF disk loading versus the Osprey's 17.4 PSF, both at gross, so it may be possible.
 
Twenty years in and AW609 isn't certified, yikes. I searched and could find nothing on the Osprey's auto capabilities; the AW609 has a 15.9 PSF disk loading versus the Osprey's 17.4 PSF, both at gross, so it may be possible.

Wiki makes a brief statement about its poor auto capabilities but this review is pretty thorough at describing an auto. Basically you’re dropping like a rock (5,000 fpm) and most likely going to end in damage / injuries. Glide is the preferred method at 170 kts and 3,500 fpm with a 4.5 to 1 glide ratio.

https://verticalmag.com/features/20112-flying-the-v-22-html/
 
Twenty years in and AW609 isn't certified, yikes.
It was more the economics of the venture than the aircraft on why it is not certified yet. It started as a Bell Agusta project in the 90s, then Bell Agusta split with Augusta keeping the 609 and 139 (replacement for the Bell 412). Bad move on Bell's part and they have never recovered on the civilian side. Then the main mark for the 609 evaporated due to various reasons, and Agusta morphed into Agusta Westland then Leonardo. And when the 2 top 609 test pilots were killed in flight it set the project back again. It will be certified but will only have a very narrow niche market.
I searched and could find nothing on the Osprey's auto capabilities;
To add to the above, its main issue is a very low inertia blade system with a high gross weight and a wing that disturbs the airflow through the blades. Hence it needs to drop quickly to keep the blades turning. Other conventional type helicopters also suffer from rather quick auto descents like the S-92 to the point it has only been demonstrated several times during certification. A number of factors influence the autorotation abilities but the V22 has just about all of them against it. The 609 not so much.
 
It was more the economics of the venture than the aircraft on why it is not certified yet. It started as a Bell Agusta project in the 90s, then Bell Agusta split with Augusta keeping the 609 and 139 (replacement for the Bell 412). Bad move on Bell's part and they have never recovered on the civilian side. Then the main mark for the 609 evaporated due to various reasons, and Agusta morphed into Agusta Westland then Leonardo. And when the 2 top 609 test pilots were killed in flight it set the project back again. It will be certified but will only have a very narrow niche market.

This seems disingenuous. And aircraft that can land nearly anywhere and travel at aircraft speeds. Seems like lots of folks would like to do that and skip the whole airport experience.
 
This seems disingenuous. And aircraft that can land nearly anywhere and travel at aircraft speeds. Seems like lots of folks would like to do that and skip the whole airport experience.
And that was the initial intent. Bell predicated a need of a 1000 609s when first flown. But then performance issues, payloads, physical footprint, etc. took out the primary customer of offshore support. At present, its an aircraft looking for a market and Leonardo thinks once its certified it will develop that market. But in a limited capacity. The only people I've heard of being serious are corporate, EMS, and certain utility ops. Maybe it will give the urban Evtols a run for their money, but at $25M-$30M a copy doubtful. Its a neat aircraft and at one time the ol' day job was looking to buy several and I had my name on the list to work them. I hope they can make something of it.
 
Once carriers start flying those things out of urban centers away from airports but still getting folks to where they want to go at airplane speeds I think there'll be plenty of demand.
 
And that was the initial intent. Bell predicated a need of a 1000 609s when first flown. But then performance issues, payloads, physical footprint, etc. took out the primary customer of offshore support. At present, its an aircraft looking for a market and Leonardo thinks once its certified it will develop that market. But in a limited capacity. The only people I've heard of being serious are corporate, EMS, and certain utility ops. Maybe it will give the urban Evtols a run for their money, but at $25M-$30M a copy doubtful. Its a neat aircraft and at one time the ol' day job was looking to buy several and I had my name on the list to work them. I hope they can make something of it.

While it would be perfect for remote areas in EMS, no way the other 90 % of the industry can afford something like that. Not to mention it would be overkill for the majority of our flights. Not saying I’d turn one down if they offered it though. ;)
 
I don't know why we allow them the protections we do. They're corporations, not citizens. 1A protections for corporations need to be restricted to the printed page. Not electronic or broadcast media. If they say anything prefaced without the disclaimer of "pretty much we're making the following up.." it should be freely open to lawsuit, just on the basis that it's misleading and annoying.
That would be the end of the Republic.
 
While it would be perfect for remote areas in EMS, no way the other 90 % of the industry can afford something like that.
No scene work just inter-facility transfers. Think of the King Airs, PC12s, Lears. Bristow is the latest launch customer but haven't heard what sector it will be used in. I think the biggest customer will be boutique charters given its low pax count and cost.
 
No scene work just inter-facility transfers. Think of the King Airs, PC12s, Lears. Bristow is the latest launch customer but haven't heard what sector it will be used in. I think the biggest customer will be boutique charters given its low pax count and cost.

Yeah it would be prime for IFTs. Going door to door they could beat faster fixed wings. Urban / tight LZs though, not so much.
 
You're absolutely right, except that the ethics have continued to go down, and there don't seem to be any counter-balances to that in our current system. I think we need to start looking at that. Corporations don't have inherent at all, and shouldn't be allowed to hide behind protections designed for individuals and small businesses.

I agree Corporations having more power than individuals is a disaster.

The idea that new organizations were more ethical in the past... not so much.

The Great Moon Hoax 1835

Here is a great article talking about the "peak" in 1898. I'm not sure that was the peak but let's not kid ourselves.

"Thus it always was..."
 
I agree Corporations having more power than individuals is a disaster.

The idea that new organizations were more ethical in the past... not so much.

The Great Moon Hoax 1835

Here is a great article talking about the "peak" in 1898. I'm not sure that was the peak but let's not kid ourselves.

"Thus it always was..."

That's a *fantastic* story, thank you. Hadn't heard that. But mostly just harmless fun. And yes, media at the time more or less brought us the Spanish American war, according to some. But the old media were old guys, who were more or less interested in pushing an agenda that was favorable to the country, or at least their part of the country. That part still continues, but the goal is the short term income of the company, with absolutely no concern to what it would do to anyone. The US media in the 1940's, more or less, conspired to hold back information from time to time...again as I understand it...that otherwise would have resulted in aid to the Axis powers during the war. Today? Pick a media company, and if they could make a .1% increase in ratings at the cost of a couple of American or other lives, and they'd do it in a second.
 
Yeah it would be prime for IFTs. Going door to door they could beat faster fixed wings. Urban / tight LZs though, not so much.

The two bolded sentences I quoted contradict each other, as most hospital facilities have the bare minimum for an LZ.
 
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