Must a MEI be a CFII to qualify his student to get the instrument add on?

FlyingTiger

FlyingTiger

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FlyingTiger
Just took the FIA today and ran across a question that wasn't covered in my study material. It essentially asked whether a MEI with only a CFI certificate can endorse his student to get the instrument add on with the ME rating?

I looked up the regulations and the most relevant section I came up with is below. Since muti-engine is a class rating, not a type, I would say CFII is not necessary but I am far from sure.

See the quoted sections of 61.195 below.

(b) Aircraft Ratings. A flight instructor may not conduct flight training in any aircraft for which the flight instructor does not hold:
(1) A pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate with the applicable category and class rating; and
(2) If appropriate, a type rating.
(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument training for the issuance of an instrument rating, a type rating not limited to VFR, or the instrument training required for commercial pilot and airline transport pilot certificates must hold an instrument rating on his or her pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft used for the training provided.
 
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why would you want an endorsement,from a non instrument instructor?
 
FlyingTiger said:
I would say CFI II is not necessary but I am far from sure.

(c) Instrument Rating. A flight instructor who provides instrument training for the issuance of an instrument rating, a type rating not limited to VFR, or the instrument training required for commercial pilot and airline transport pilot certificates must hold an instrument rating on his or her pilot certificate and flight instructor certificate that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft used for the training provided.
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How did you quote all that and come to exactly the opposite result to what it says?
 
Maybe I am not being clear but it looks like everyone is saying you must have the CFII. Just for clarity sake, I reworded the question to be more precise.

As an MEI I can teach and endorse a student to take the practical test to get their ME. If that student has an instrument rating already, they will need to do a single engine approach and straight-and-level flight and turns to have IFR privileges. Since the student already has an instrument rating, does the training still fall under the definition of instrument training which requires a CFII or does it fall under multi-engine training and they just need to be a CFI w/MEI.

Also, doesn't CFI /MEI technically have the Category (airplane) and Class (MEI) on their flight instructor certificate to meet the requirements noted above?
 
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First off, I'd suggest getting your terminology straight...I assume what you're talking about is a flight instructor (CFI) with single- and multi-engine airplane privileges, but no instrument instructor privileges.

If this is the case, note that in order for a pilot to get instrument privileges for multi-engine airplanes when adding the multi rating to a certificate with airplane single-engine and instrument privileges, some demonstration of instrument proficiency is required in the multi-engine airplane. Therefore, instructing and signing a student off for an unrestricted multi-engine rating requires an instrument rating on the instructor certificate.
 
FlyingTiger said:
Maybe I am not being clear but it looks like everyone is saying you must have the CFI II. Just for clarity sake, I reworded the question to be more precise.

As an MEI I can teach and endorse a student to take the practical test to get their ME. If that student has an instrument rating already, they will need to do a single engine approach and straight-and-level flight and turns to have IFR privileges. Since the student already has an instrument rating, does the training still fall under the definition of instrument training which requires a CFI II or does it fall under multi-engine training and they just need to be a CFI w/MEI.

Also, doesn't CFI /MEI technically have the Category (airplane) and Class (MEI) on their flight instructor certificate to meet the requirements noted above?
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If you are talking about a commercial multi rating, you really can't get by the requirement for "Ten hours of instrument training... " five of which must be in a multi. That very clearly requires a CFI certificate with both ME and IA ratings.

If you are talking about a private multi rating, it gets interesting. Yes, the pilot will need to demonstrate a single-engine instrument approach, but does anyone see a training requirement associated with it? (Too tired after a trip to look that one up)
 
midlifeflyer said:
If you are talking about a private multi rating, it gets interesting. Yes, the pilot will need to demonstrate a single-engine instrument approach, but does anyone see a training requirement associated with it? (Too tired after a trip to look that one up)
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From 61.65:
(c) Flight proficiency. A person who applies for an instrument rating must receive and log training from an authorized instructor in an aircraft, or in a full flight simulator or flight training device, in accordance with paragraph (g) of this section, that includes the following areas of operation:
....
(7) Emergency operations;
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Seems to me you're applying for privileges associated with the instrument ACS:
VII. Emergency Operations

Task B: One Engine Inoperative during Straight-and-Level Flight and Turns (AMEL, AMES)
Task C: Instrument Approach and Landing with an Inoperative Engine (Simulated) (AMEL, AMES)
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So the instruction required by 61.65 is required.
 
MauleSkinner said:
From 61.65:

Seems to me you're applying for privileges associated with the instrument ACS:

So the instruction required by 61.65 is required.
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Except, the instrument rating is category-specific ("Instrument Airplane"), not class-specific. The student with the Instrument Airplane rating already has all the 61.65 training required for airplanes, regardless of class (single or multi).

The fact that you have to demonstrate the tasks on a checkride doesn't automatically mean there is a training requirement. Consider the case of ATP. Plenty of tasks but zero required training.

That's what leads me to wonder. I don't have an answer.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Except, the instrument rating is category-specific ("Instrument Airplane"), not class-specific. The student with the Instrument Airplane rating already has all the 61.65 training required for airplanes, regardless of class (single or multi).

The fact that you have to demonstrate the tasks on a checkride doesn't automatically mean there is a training requirement. Consider the case of ATP. Plenty of tasks but zero required training.

That's what leads me to wonder. I don't have an answer.
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The way the ACS is written, I'd read it that an instrument rating taken in a single engine airplane isn't "complete". A multi-engine applicant is simply finishing the checkride, with the training requirements set forth in 61.65.

If an applicant holds both single-engine and multiengine class ratings on a pilot certificate and takes the instrument rating practical test in a single-engine airplane, the certificate issued must bear the limitation “Multiengine Limited to VFR Only.” If the applicant takes the test in a multiengine airplane, the instrument privileges will be automatically conferred for the airplane single-engine rating.
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MauleSkinner said:
First off, I'd suggest getting your terminology straight...I assume what you're talking about is a flight instructor (CFI) with single- and multi-engine airplane privileges, but no instrument instructor privileges.

If this is the case, note that in order for a pilot to get instrument privileges for multi-engine airplanes when adding the multi rating to a certificate with airplane single-engine and instrument privileges, some demonstration of instrument proficiency is required in the multi-engine airplane. Therefore, instructing and signing a student off for an unrestricted multi-engine rating requires an instrument rating on the instructor certificate.
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There is no need to assume, from my first post "It essentially asked whether a MEI with only a CFI certificate can endorse his student to get the instrument add on with the ME rating?"

Maybe your reading comprehension instead of my terminology was the real issue here.
 
FlyingTiger said:
There is no need to assume, from my first post "It essentially asked whether a MEI with only a CFI certificate can endorse his student to get the instrument add on with the ME rating?"

Maybe your reading comprehension instead of my terminology was the real issue here.
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What other kind of certificate would this MEI have? It sounds like you think there are other options.
 
He means a CFI certificate with multiengine and instrument ratings.
 
FlyingTiger said:
Ok, you're just F...ing with me now, right, lol. (a.) CFI or (b) CFI + CFII.
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No, I'm actually saying you should use terminology that reasonably approximates what this stuff is. Flight instructor is the certificate. Single engine-, multi engine-, and instrument-airplane are ratings on that certificate.
 
FlyingTiger said:
There is no need to assume, from my first post "It essentially asked whether a MEI with only a CFI certificate can endorse his student to get the instrument add on with the ME rating?"

Maybe your reading comprehension instead of my terminology was the real issue here.
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He's right about the problem of loose terminology. For example my perhaps incorrect alternative maybe reading doesn't involve the CFI-AME "endorsing" the instrument add-on, just the AMEL practical test. If there were a requirement to "endorse the instrument add-on," I have no doubt that would require a CFI-AME-IA.
 
Unless the student is doing the initial instrument rating in a multi engine the instructor does not need to be a CFII for the student to qualify for the rating. There is a huge amount of misinformation floating around (especially on facebook) about this topic.

For example: If the student holds commercial pilot ASEL+Instrument airplane and they are adding multi-engine airplane to their commercial certificate they will have to demonstrate instrument proficiency but since they already hold instrument airplane there is no actual training required and thus does not need to be done with a CFII. The student/applicant is not applying for instrument in a multi engine because he or she already holds instrument airplane, he or she is just applying for CMEL.

Example in the other direction: Student holds private pilot SEL and MEL, no instrument airplane rating. Student wants to get an instrument rating in his Seneca, this would need to be done by a CFII/MEI because the student does not hold the instrument airplane rating already.


FWIW I got my CMEL add-on with a CFI/MEI who did not have his II. I did it with the FSDO (free!) even and the inspector didn't bat an eye and I flew that single engine ILS like a boss.
 
Thanks Z06, so I actually got that one correct on the exam :cool: The test had a few other questions about CFI vs CFII authority in regard to Private Pilot and Instrument Training. For some reason none of this was covered in my Gleim course.
 
Don't call it an "instrument add-on" because that's not what it is. You are adding an ME rating.

The CFI-I is required for "training for the issuance of an instrument rating, a type rating not limited to VFR, or the instrument training required for commercial pilot and airline transport pilot certificates". None of those apply to adding an ME rating. If the FAA wanted to require a CFI-I, they would have included "a class rating not limited to VFR" in the list above, as they did above for type ratings.
 
You can't just say it's a ME rating, that's over simplistic in this context.You can add a ME without instrument privileges i.e. VFR only, even if you have an instrument rating. Same for the commercial. You have to let the DPE know what you want and then he/she will test accordingly so if I tell him I want to add instrument and/or commercial privileges to my ME check ride, I'm fairly certain he is going to know exactly what I mean.
 
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FlyingTiger said:
You can't just say it's a ME rating, that's over simplistic in this context.You can add a ME without instrument privileges
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So word it the way you just did, then. It is not an "instrument add on", because you are not adding it to anything. It is already part of the rating.

FlyingTiger said:
You can add a ME without instrument privileges i.e. VFR only, even if you have an instrument rating."
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I've heard of it being done in real life but technically the ACS does not give you an option of choosing to include them or not include them. The instrument tasks (AoA X, Tasks C and D) are listed as required tasks with the following exception: "Tasks C and D are not required for applicants who are instrument-rated and who have previously demonstrated instrument proficiency in a multiengine airplane or for applicants who do not hold an instrument rating."

FlyingTiger said:
You have to let the DPE know what you want and then he/she will test accordingly so if I tell him I want to add instrument and/or commercial privileges to my ME check ride, I'm fairly certain he is going to know exactly what I mean.
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Probably, but by using the word "include", not "add", and you will be both unambiguous and correct.

My 8710 for my multiengine add-on, which was not limited to VFR, did not say anything about instrument.
 
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