Musing of a first time plane buyer

Morgan3820

Morgan3820

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El Conquistador
I've started looking for my first plane. Crazy I know but I've wanted on since my mid teens. I welcome all comments, either useful or just entertaining.

To start, I have $25K to buy and about $300/month for operating expenses. I would rather not finance. I am a biggish fellow with a wife and a 13 yr. old daughter. Both of the women are on board with the idea. The daughter went to flying camp this summer and she is stoked.

I'm looking for something simple and 4 place, with possibly basic IFR. I would use it to extend our weekend trip radius, plus the occasional long x-country. I have tried to find a partner but no luck so far. I am on the waiting list for a T-hanger ($110/mo) but it might be a year or more before my name comes up. I am concerned about the future avgas supply, so mogas needs to be a possibility.

This is what I have found out thus far. All of the good deals are in TX or CA. I live in eastern NC. Is it worth going that far to get a plane?

I can get a good PA-28-140 for under $25K. I have heard about a new AD concerning the yokes. I like the plane but the backseat is somewhat claustrophobic. Seems to be a lot of speed/engine mods making it possibly a quick x-country platform. Many are IFR. I like the Warrior for the bigger interior, but they seem to be just out of my price range.

For $25K it appears that I can get a pre-1968 C 172. I am concerned about maintenance with the Continental O-300. The Lycoming powered C172's are beyond my means without financing. But if I am willing to finance another $10K I can get one. Is it worth the $$$ for what may be less maintenance money.

I have looked at Piper Pacers. Well within my price range, and it appeals to my nostalgia, but as I currently do not have a hanger it would not be a good idea at the moment. So I looked at Cessna 170's. I Like the looks of them but I was surprised at the asking prices. The 170B's appear to be beyond my limit. Then back to the Continental maintenance issues and they appear to need continuous TLC, plus the ground loop issue always in the back of my brain. Are ground loops inevitable? But I would get more attention wherever I go and I like that. My friend has a Stinson which is also in my price range, but it is a challenge for me to get in and out of.

Any thoughts? Have I missed anything?

I'm sure that I am not the first to ask these questions but I appreciate your help.
 
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Get the Cherokee. Best bang for your buck in your price range. Nothing too shocking about the o300 cessnas but the lyc o320 is tried and true. At 25k ou can't ask a lot out of the back seat.
 
I like the 1950's C-172s. Nice low panel you can actually see out the front.
 
Learned to fly in a Cherokee 180 and really liked that plane. Even though I had an engine failure once, it flew my family and I all around the Midwest.

Sounds like you have a good grasp on the buying process. Good luck.

Cheers
 
and about $300/month for operating expenses

I don't think that will be enough....sorry.
 
If you can find a 172 with a low-time O-300, I'd go for it. O-300s are great engines....until you have to overhaul one and then they're just expen$ive.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
Tony Scarpelli from Wichita is one of the folks I admire for getting into a good airplane and flying it on a very respectable budget. He recently shared some history in this thread: http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1198094&postcount=66

Tony Scarpelli said:
The cheapest way to fly or get your PPL for that matter is to join a flying club or partnership in a 172 or Cherokee type aircraft.

If cost is the only factor then you should look all over all airports within driving range for a club or partnership.

I don't like the politics in clubs and I never thought to check for partnerships so I went out and bought a trainer type aircraft.

My budget was $20k.

Living in the midwest it is very cost effective to own an airplane. I could have free tie down or $120 hangar rent; insurance for $20k is about $595 per year; in my state their are not taxes either sales tax nor property tax on classic aircraft over 30 years old.

So my only costs were gas, maintenance and hangar rent.

I flew about 200 hours per year my first three years and I would never have been able to do that with a club or rental as I pretty much needed the plane anytime the tickle hit me. Owning a plane you seldom wait for it down for inspections or maintenance or scheduled with others.

I bought my plane for $20k, spent $10 per hour total on annual inspections and all other maintenance and improvements and gas. That was it. I used mogas stc so I saved about half the cost of fuel from $6 per gallon to $3.29 per gallon times 7-8 gph. Oil changes every 100 hrs cost $3.27 qt for 6 quarts, $12.50 for filter and $10 for oil analysis kit. So call it $40 or so.

I bought the plane with 2000 hrs on the engine or at TBO and I sold it with 3400 hrs on it and I sold it for $15k so it cost me $5k to own it about 8 years. Not bad, I have never gotten such a good deal on any car or boat or motor cycle I have ever owned so it was quite affordable.

other ways to save when you own an airplane, I traded flight time for CFI. For every 3 hrs of CFI time I let him borrow the plane 1 hr dry with him paying his own gas. I've also traded out mechanical time for flight time. After I bought my 2nd airplane I let a few guys use the Cherokee and they paid the monthly hangar and I had them buy insurance to cover if they wrecked it and they paid the annual maintenance as well. So it cost me nothing to own the airplane the last few years before I sold it.

Ownership gives you options.

I have taken the plane on 10, 15 and even 20 day vacations without having to answer to a club or renter. I have flown it to both coasts, Key West and could take it to Grand Cayman Islands or Bahamas if I so choose to.

In todays market $20k buys a heck of a lot of airplane. If I were doing it today, from your spot, I would be looking for a 180 Arrow with almost run out engine and do the same thing. Fly it and improve it each step of the way. I would buy it with a fresh annual so it is airworthy and then go get a bunch of flying time.

Look into taking Savvy Aviator Maintenance seminars to help you control your maintenance costs and separate the myth from truth about aviation maintenance.
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And yes, looking halfway or further across the country to find the right aircraft for you and your budget is worth it.

But don't forget to scrounge locally, making lots of local contacts and asking if they know something is for sale.

An example for me was when I was at my local airport looking for the airboss for the show that was to happen the next day. Couldn't find him, but did find the sound guy, Jodie. Turns out Jodie is a local guy who also likes Cessna Cardinals and owns a 1974 C177RG. Jodie shared with me that there is a chance he won't pass his next medical and might be putting the airplane up for sale. Unfortunately, I'm not in a position to be a serious buyer, but since the later C177RG's are on my short list if I was a buyer, I might have lucked into a good deal on a good plane... just by hanging around the airport and getting to know who's who and who they know.
 
Cherokee:​
Lycoming O320
Oil Cooler
Engine Driven fuel pump
Electric Standby fuel pump
Vacuum Pump, usually dry type?
many oil & fuel hoses
Weak Mufflers
Absolutely horrible wire harness routing for the alternator and starter, could have very brittle insulation that are cracking and falling apart being routed within inches of the hottest parts of the engines.
Only one cabin door and must climb over the wing to get in/out
Three landing gear struts to leak

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

O-300 powered 172

No oil cooler to maintain.
No fuel pumps to maintain.
One landing gear strut to leak
Most of the older 1956 thru 196? do not have vacuum pumps but rather venturis, and they do not fail and cost big bucks to replace. If they do have a vacuum pump, most are wet pumps lubricated by engine oil and will last the life of the engine where the dry pumps seem to die like clockwork around 500 hours and cost $$$ to replace.

There are only two hoses, a fuel line that feeds the carburetor and an oil pressure sense line that feeds the oil pressure gauge in the cockpit. 2 hoses are way cheaper to replace then say 7 which is what many O-320 lycomings with fuel pumps have.

Two cabin doors and do not have to climb over the wing to get in/out.
The early-early 172's do not have a baggage door so that may be something you want.
The 6 cylinder O-300's can be super silky smooth engines if properly maintained, ie no induction leaks, good ignition etc.
Can burn car gas without any physical modifications to the airframe. The STC to do so consists of placards at the wing tank fillers and a badge for the engine oil filler.
There are certain early O-300 to avoid, those with crankshafts that are not availabe anymore. I can't remember all the specifics hopefullt Tom-D will chime in.
 
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"...but the backseat is somewhat claustrophobic..."

You don't know until you get back there.... Some of Wayne Bower's best advice to me was to always try on an aircraft for size before getting serious about it. With the front seats moved up into flying position, many rear seats in older GA aircraft have more leg room than many of today's sedans or coupes!
 
I would pick the 172. It flies better than the Cherokee 140 and is easier to get fixed.
 
This is great! Just what I need.. Which O-300's should I avoid?
Keep it coming.

Thanks!
 
Morgan3820 said:
I have looked at Piper Pacers. Well within my price range, and it appeals to my nostalgia, but as I currently do not have a hanger it would not be a good idea at the moment.
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That's a really good buy!

You can get a real sweetheart pacer for 25k ish. Haul alot, not too hard to find a IFR or easily IFRed one.

IMHO for a hobby pilot that's a AWSOME plane, try to find a t hangar or even the open t hangars (like a car port), I've seen some folks get full cover too.

You will get MUCH more plane for your 25k then a 172 or PA28. That pacer is way better for a backcountry plane, very simple, will out haul the others and you can get a nicer Pacer for 25k then 172 or PA28 for 25k.

Morgan3820 said:
My friend has a Stinson which is also in my price range, but it is a challenge for me to get in and out of.
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Stinsons are very nice planes, it's what I have for my personal plane and don't plan on ever selling her.

HOWEVER I learned how to fly on a taildragger from the start, I log near 100hrs a month on company planes.

Be carefully getting a tail wheel or anything too complicated or fast unless you plan on doing a heap of flying (like a HONEST 30-40hrs a month).


I think the Pacer is a great match for ya!
 
Fearless Tower said:
If you can find a 172 with a low-time O-300, I'd go for it. O-300s are great engines....until you have to overhaul one and then they're just expen$ive.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
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I've heard people say that before. What sort of costs would you be looking at, all included, to get a good quality full major overhaul that stands a good chance of making it to TBO?
 
I have to agree with Justin that $300/mo. seems a little thin. If you spend $110 for a T-hangar, amortize $80-100/mo for an annual inspection (no repairs, just inspection), it leaves you with just $90-110/mo. for avgas if nothing breaks. In an O-320 that's about 2-2.5 hrs. of fuel. You'll need to buy a case of oil from time to time, you'll need to update your charts, and you'll need to pay a CFI for a FR.

Is a club out of the question? (e.g., www.ncspacecowboys.com ; capefearflyers.com ; or roll your own) Many if not most of the benefits of private ownership. Usually a lower capital investment, leaving you more for monthly ops.
 
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I'm with DJ. Look for a partnership in a more expensive plane. Don't be one of those pilots that buys a plane to buy a plane and then can't afford to fly it. :no:
 
The biggest problem with making it to TBO is sitting. When many of these engines are at 500 hours till TBO but well into 25 years since OH there may be a lot of gaskets, hoses, baffling, corrosion etc that may need help on top of any cylinder issues.


This O-320 and the airframe (and oil cooler) has 1500 TT since new. Hoses are shot, 90% firewall forward wiring shot, ignition harness shot, baffling falling off, valve cover gaskets shot, drain back tube hoses shot,

http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59403

The gaskets and baffling arent that expensive but they sure can be time consuming to replace.
 
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Two thoughts from a not-so-experienced aircraft buyer/seller.

Be careful about long distance purchases. You can get yourself trapped into a deal that may not be optimal just because it cost some money to get a look and/or just not having enough time to check it all out or find a good mechanic to do the pre-buy. Nothing too difficult here, just a caution for the first timer.

Try your best to take your time. Fortunately my wife knew me well enough to nix my first few deals. It gave me enough time to figure out exactly what I wanted. In the end, for my Maule purchase, I knew enough about the marketplace and the planes that when a great plane appeared, I was able to jump on it and make the right deal. Sounds like you may already have this part under control.

Good luck. Hope to see you flying around NC sometime.
 
Geico266 said:
I'm with DJ. Look for a partnership in a more expensive plane. Don't be one of those pilots that buys a plane to buy a plane and then can't afford to fly it. :no:
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Partnerships can be a GREAT way to split fixed costs of insurace, hangar rent, inspections etc.
 
I would stay away from the 8-bolt cranks in an O-300. The newer engines (I think 172C and on, verify that) have the 6-bolt crank.

The O-300 engine is essentially the same as the C-145, largely only a difference in nomenclature... but be aware that there are differences within the engine-family. A C-145-2 is essentially a O-300-A engine, and they both use the same propeller and are both legal on the Cessna 170 aircraft. They use the same crankshaft, which has an 8-bolt prop-flange.

Subsequent models of the O=300 (such as the O-300-C and O-300-D) use a different crankshaft which has a 6-bolt prop-flange and therefore uses a different prop. (There is NO ADAPTOR of which I am aware....the use of the 6-bolt crank requires a different, 6-bolt prop.)

Installing a O300-C or D crank in your engine will essentially convert it to an O-300-C or D engine and require you to use a different prop...the most common being a McCauley 1C172-EM7655, which was also used on many of the early 172 aircraft.

Our association, (The Int'l Cessna 170 Association) owns the STC which approves the installation of that engine and prop combination into a 170 or 172 aircraft. If you are a bona fide member of our association, you can purchase it very inexpensively to make your engine/prop installation legal....after you have converted your engine in accordance with TCM Service Bulletin M75-6R1 (which is what allows you to convert your engine.)

Hope this helps.
 
At $300/month, you're probably off by a factor of 4 when you figure in hangar, insurance, fuel, maintenance, etc...
 
do yourself a favor and at least go for a ride in a tri-pacer. It's as good as the 172 for travelling and you can decide if you want to trade $$ for looks. I think the PA22 looks beautiful in the right light, that is, the green glow of the money you'll save.
 
Morgan3820 said:
This is great! Just what I need.. Which O-300's should I avoid?
Keep it coming.

Thanks!
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None of them, we now have an STC to use the later 6 bolt cranks from the 0-300-D in all the C-145- thru-0-300-A,B,C,s

the 6 cylinder Continental can be overhauled with after market parts as cheaply as the 4 banger Lycomings.

Plus the aircraft will not wear as bad with the smooth running 6 as it will with the 4 banger. Your gyros and instruments feel the vibs more than the pilot and pax, so they last longer.

My suggestion is to look for a 1964-1967 C-172 they have the - D version with wet/vac pump and system to operate the instruments which have been placed in the standard 6 pack locations. Plus the aircraft are lighter than the later versions and will burn auto.

the only added expense of the 0-300 is 4 extra plugs at 500 hours.

The C-170,,,, there are three versions, the 48 rag wing, which is lighter faster and has a better useful load that the -A & -Bs, due to old wives tales they sell for less than the metal versions the general public is scared of the rag wing, because in days of old they needed re-covered every 5-7 years. Now days with ceconite and ura coatings such as Poly-fiber they are good up to 50 years with not much care.

In the days of dope and cotton the rag needed to have a hangar, not so any more, the 48 is IMHO the best of the bunch.
The 49 A model is an all metal aircraft that has a flat wing ( no dihedral ) and small flaps, other wise it is the same basic aircraft as the -B.

The 1952 mid year up thru 57 the -B ruled, the have the big flaps that extend 40 degrees and can land very steep over any obstacle. and are the favorite of the off airport gang.

but remember all three will land at fields that are too short to get out of. the 48 and the A require a little more finesse to land short than the B. but they all will get you in to a very short field.

All the early 170/172 are well supported by after market parts and all most every A&P cut their teeth on them.

I just overhauled my 0-300-D with 2 new TCM mags and harness, an Jasco alternator up grade, 6 new ECI cylinders, 12 new hydraulic units, a cam grind, cases lapped and line bored fitted with Superior bearings, rods reworked, my angle starter drive was IRAN and returned to service.

And it cost me pocket change over $14k in parts. I do my own labor, and I do work for free for me (just for Ron)

Your local A&P can do the overhaul, the 0-300 is a brick simple engine IOWs it is not a complicated engine, so you do not need a speciality shop to do one.
 

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JHW said:
do yourself a favor and at least go for a ride in a tri-pacer. It's as good as the 172 for travelling and you can decide if you want to trade $$ for looks. I think the PA22 looks beautiful in the right light, that is, the green glow of the money you'll save.
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That short winged Piper is a real hand full in a crosswind. A lot of them get bent that way.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I
To start, I have $25K to buy and about $300/month for operating expenses.
snip

I'm looking for something simple and 4 place, with possibly basic IFR.
snip
I am concerned about the future avgas supply, so mogas needs to be a possibility.

This is what I have found out thus far. All of the good deals are in TX or CA. I live in eastern NC. Is it worth going that far to get a plane?

Yes, you can buy better aircraft than you can build or restore.

For $25K it appears that I can get a pre-1968 C 172.
Snip But if I am willing to finance another $10K I can get one. Is it worth the $$$ for what may be less maintenance money.
snip
Any thoughts? Have I missed anything?
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here is the best year of production of the 172 (1963)
manual flaps, rear window, one piece wind screen, lightest empty weight of any later versions, 6 pac instruments, center stack radios.

here is one in your price range.
http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_639023_CESSNA+172D.html
 
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jpower said:
I've heard people say that before. What sort of costs would you be looking at, all included, to get a good quality full major overhaul that stands a good chance of making it to TBO?
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Aside from the potential crank issue (which as Tom pointed out is now being mitigated somewhat) they use 6 cylinders to give you 145 HP. Most other similar HP engines are only 4 bangers, so naturally you have more cylinders to pay for compared to other comparable light plane engines.

IOW, an overhaul for an early model 172 with a 6 cylinder O-300 is going to run you more than a 70's or 80's 172 with a 4 cylinder.

If you shop around, you can find a decent deal, although don't let Tom sugar coat it too much...he is an A&P IA doing his own work. What it costs him to do it is not going to be the same as what your bill is going to be.

In short, I wouldn't run away from an O-300, just know what you are getting into.
 
The budget you put forward is better for renting, which is probably what you should be doing. Lots of guys have bought airplanes with too little money only to have them sit because they couldn't afford to fly the things. When airplanes sit they break. It's a vicious cycle.
 
Gotta love it when some guy touts a 20k airplane with an 1,800 hour engine that will cost another 20K.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Aside from the potential crank issue (which as Tom pointed out is now being mitigated somewhat) they use 6 cylinders to give you 145 HP. Most other similar HP engines are only 4 bangers, so naturally you have more cylinders to pay for compared to other comparable light plane engines.

IOW, an overhaul for an early model 172 with a 6 cylinder O-300 is going to run you more than a 70's or 80's 172 with a 4 cylinder.

If you shop around, you can find a decent deal, although don't let Tom sugar coat it too much...he is an A&P IA doing his own work. What it costs him to do it is not going to be the same as what your bill is going to be.

In short, I wouldn't run away from an O-300, just know what you are getting into.
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As for the crank issue, it a combination of switching to the 6 bolt and getting a new prop to fit. If that cost is figured into the purchase price of a 172 with the 8 bolt crank, near TBO, then no biggie. Just don't get blindsided down the road by it.


FWIW, 7 new PTFE firesleeved hoses for a whimpy 4 banger Lycoming with engine driven fuel pump, electric standby fuel pump, it ran over $500 just for the hoses. An O-300 powered 172 cuts a lot of BS cost out that Lycomings have. About the only weak (maybe) part of the O-300 I can think of is the starter adapter and 4 extra spark plugs.
 
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steingar said:
The budget you put forward is better for renting, which is probably what you should be doing. Lots of guys have bought airplanes with too little money only to have them sit because they couldn't afford to fly the things. When airplanes sit they break. It's a vicious cycle.
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:yeahthat:

That is a good point. A budget of $300 a month is going to be pretty tough to operate an airplane. Which means that it sits alot and unlike renting, you still have to pay the bills when you aren't flying.

Out of that $300, you have to pay for tie-down or hangar, insurance, fuel...etc. After you pay for the tiedown and insurance, that doesn't leave much money left over for fuel ....and that isn't even factoring in maintenance which can be quite variable, particularly in the first year of ownership.

$300 a month will generally buy you around 3 hrs of flight time a month renting (plus or minus a half hour depending on the local rental rate). You'd be hard pressed flying your own airplane anywhere close to that much if you are limited to that operating budget.
 
Problem is the OP never defined $300 a month as fixed costs or including fuel and maintenance?
 
He can obviously clarify, but I assume that newcomers lump them all together until we pound on them for a while.:D

dell30rb said:
Problem is the OP never defined $300 a month as fixed costs or including fuel and maintenance?
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Tony_Scarpelli said:
For a cherokee? Are you kiddn?
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I flew a Cherokee for 4 years. It always cost $12,000/yr to operate it. (100-120 hours) I'm no math expert, but $12,000/12 is pretty close to $1,000. Which is a lot more that $300.

Monthly Fixed costs:
Hangar: $90 (which was dirt cheap, I'm now at $185)
Insurance: $60 (I know you don't believe in it, but others do)
Annual Inspection: $50.

Hell, I'm at $200 right there, and haven't even started the engine.
 
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