Musing of a first time plane buyer

[Tony_Scarpelli]

I have a buddy who is a jobber gas hauler. He tells me that ethanol is added at the pump when you deliver gas to the gas stations. For many reasons ethanol cannot be added earlier than that.

If this is true then anyone with a 55 gallon barrel can get mogas delivered to their home or work and then use 5 gallon cans to take that gas to the airport when the go.

Tractor supply company even has 50 and 150 gallon fuel tanks 12v pumps that mount in vans, trucks if you have a truck. In general mo gas is close to half the cost of avgas so the pay back is very quick. Then, you can go to the pump station to pick it up and dispense it directly into your plane.

For years I had 4 - 5 gallon jugs I bought at walmart $5 each. Each trip to the airport I would fill up my Toyota and then open the trunk and fill up the 5 gallon cans. Sometimes I only had 1 or 2 jugs other times 4 jugs. I didn't have to stop to get gas every trip as the airplane stayed filled most of the time and there was left over gas in the cans when I got back from flying 1 hr trips or even 2 hrs.

20 gallons is 2 1/2 hrs flight time in a Cherokee so I quickly got and keep the 50 gallon tanks full on the plane, and to the tabs in the summer time. Then I would leave two full gas cans in the hangar and next time I flew, fill the airplane and take the empty jugs home.

I go to the airport much more than I fly and hauling gas was never an inconvenient as I found a Philips 66 who reliably sold mogas and it was on the route to the airport. Actually now I find it a PITA to have to pull up to the self serve aviation fuel with the Comanche. Wish I could use mogas still.

Maybe I should swap the Comanche for a E225 Bonanza. I could live without the turbos and still get 150 knots on 11 gph.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Does that include, or not include, the lead for the pencil?

No I had to supply the lead and the beer.

 

[wabower]

Why wouldn't an owner just spend a little more time doing whatever he does to generate the money and eliminate the hassle of schlepping gas cans around the airport? It's even worse for high-wing planes.

I have a buddy who is a jobber gas hauler. He tells me that ethanol is added at the pump when you deliver gas to the gas stations. For many reasons ethanol cannot be added earlier than that.

If this is true then anyone with a 55 gallon barrel can get mogas delivered to their home or work and then use 5 gallon cans to take that gas to the airport when the go.

Tractor supply company even has 50 and 150 gallon fuel tanks 12v pumps that mount in vans, trucks if you have a truck. In general mo gas is close to half the cost of avgas so the pay back is very quick. Then, you can go to the pump station to pick it up and dispense it directly into your plane.

For years I had 4 - 5 gallon jugs I bought at walmart $5 each. Each trip to the airport I would fill up my Toyota and then open the trunk and fill up the 5 gallon cans. Sometimes I only had 1 or 2 jugs other times 4 jugs. I didn't have to stop to get gas every trip as the airplane stayed filled most of the time and there was left over gas in the cans when I got back from flying 1 hr trips or even 2 hrs.

20 gallons is 2 1/2 hrs flight time in a Cherokee so I quickly got and keep the 50 gallon tanks full on the plane, and to the tabs in the summer time. Then I would leave two full gas cans in the hangar and next time I flew, fill the airplane and take the empty jugs home.

I go to the airport much more than I fly and hauling gas was never an inconvenient as I found a Philips 66 who reliably sold mogas and it was on the route to the airport. Actually now I find it a PITA to have to pull up to the self serve aviation fuel with the Comanche. Wish I could use mogas still.

Maybe I should swap the Comanche for a E225 Bonanza. I could live without the turbos and still get 150 knots on 11 gph.

 

[steingar]

Why wouldn't an owner just spend a little more time doing whatever he does to generate the money and eliminate the hassle of schlepping gas cans around the airport? It's even worse for high-wing planes.

I rather felt that way when I owned an STC'd Cessna. Moreover, not everyone has a pickup truck to haul gas, and I'm not about to do it in my jaunty little convertible. The stuff smells something awful. And I live in the city, so keeping a 55 gallon drum on my tiny little property is probably not doable. Even if it was I doubt my neighbors would think much of it.

 

[JHW]

I rather felt that way when I owned an STC'd Cessna. Moreover, not everyone has a pickup truck to haul gas, and I'm not about to do it in my jaunty little convertible. The stuff smells something awful. And I live in the city, so keeping a 55 gallon drum on my tiny little property is probably not doable. Even if it was I doubt my neighbors would think much of it.

here's my "pickup truck" to haul gas. We have 91 AKI non-ethanol gas for about $0.30 more than regular unleaded. My wife's boat has fiberglass tanks so I'm paranoid about getting ethanol in it. Of course when she and the girls go skiing for an afternoon they can burn through a "pickup load" of gas pretty quick. Makes beechcraft fuel economy look more reasonable.

 

[steingar]

here's my "pickup truck" to haul gas.

Figure in what you paid to acquire, insure, maintain and fuel that pickup and the cost difference between avgas and mogas is likely to disappear quickly.

 

[ClimbnSink]

here's my "pickup truck" to haul gas. We have 91 AKI non-ethanol gas for about $0.30 more than regular unleaded. My wife's boat has fiberglass tanks so I'm paranoid about getting ethanol in it. Of course when she and the girls go skiing for an afternoon they can burn through a "pickup load" of gas pretty quick. Makes beechcraft fuel economy look more reasonable.

Nice ride

 

[JHW]

Today I pay $120 a month hangar rent with electricity.
My last annual on my Comanche was $200 for the AI; plus $100 parts.

sounds about right. here in IL everything costs more, owner-assisted annuals are $3-400 fixed-gear single, $600-800 for twins, owner supplies all parts.

Parts-included (air filters, oil, oil filters, misc hardware) my travel air annual was $920 this year.

 

[frfly172]

My first airplane was a 1963 Cessna 172. Could not run it on a 300 dollar a month budget.Great first airplane and the o 300 was one smooth running engine .iI originally was keeping track of all expenses till I realized what it was actually costing me to fly.The more you fly the more it makes sense own.

 

[JHW]

Figure in what you paid to acquire, insure, maintain and fuel that pickup and the cost difference between avgas and mogas is likely to disappear quickly.

how do you propose I get to work if I don't have a vehicle ? even if it was dedicated to this purpose it would be worth it vs the aternative of dragging the boat out of the water to take it to a filling station.

 

[bnt83]

sounds about right. here in IL everything costs more, owner-assisted annuals are $3-400 fixed-gear single, $600-800 for twins, owner supplies all parts.

Parts-included (air filters, oil, oil filters, misc hardware) my travel air annual was $920 this year.

Just curious and kinda off track, since we touched it a while back, did you need to rent the wing bolt tools or?

 

[JHW]

Just curious and kinda off track, since we touched it a while back, did you need to rent the wing bolt tools or?

I have the tools but I don't touch the wing bolts unless there is some sign of corrosion or undrained water. Just hose them, the bathtubs, and back-side nut down with corrosion X. Nobody removes bonanza wing bolts on a calendar schedule.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Insurance: $50 ($600/year)

Charts: $10 (I need 4 to fly in MI, or I need a Foreflight subscription)
Now, I was IFR with a 430, so lets add in another $40 a month for my Jepp database.

.

I am not sure those can be attributed to ownership of a plane. If he owns the plane or rents, he likely has an insurance amount. Maybe not $600 for renter's insurance, but there is a check.

Foreflight is only $7 per month, and has way more than MI charts. But, let's be honest, who kept paper charts updated for VFR flying? But, in any event, owning or renting, the chart subscription does not have any thing to do with ownership, it has to do with being a pilot.

And, not sure that your Jepp subscription has to do with ownership, and, since the OP has not indicated an IFR mission, likely not relevant.

 

[EdFred]

I am not sure those can be attributed to ownership of a plane. If he owns the plane or rents, he likely has an insurance amount. Maybe not $600 for renter's insurance, but there is a check.

Foreflight is only $7 per month, and has way more than MI charts. But, let's be honest, who kept paper charts updated for VFR flying? But, in any event, owning or renting, the chart subscription does not have any thing to do with ownership, it has to do with being a pilot.

And, not sure that your Jepp subscription has to do with ownership, and, since the OP has not indicated an IFR mission, likely not relevant.

Then gasoline isn't attributed to ownership of a plane either. Because hey, you're also paying for it when you rent, right? And I never had renters insurance.

I was always up to date on paper charts until I went to an EFB. The Jepp subscription has to do with ownership because #1, how many people that don't own a plane have a Jepp subscription for a 430/430W? and #2, how many people that rent (not a club) have a Jepp subscription for a 430/430W? If I wouldn't pay for it if I didn't have a plane, then it's attributed to ownership.

Either way, knock of $50 a month if you want and it's still $850 a month. Besides, the question was posed how did *I* spend $1000/month on a Cherokee. Well, there's the answer, and it was way more than $300.

 

[JoseCuervo]

Then gasoline isn't attributed to ownership of a plane either. Because hey, you're also paying for it when you rent, right? And I never had renters insurance.

I was always up to date on paper charts until I went to an EFB.

Either way, knock of $50 a month if you want and it's still $850 a month. Besides, the question was posed how did *I* spend $1000/month on a Cherokee. Well, there's the answer, and it was way more than $300.

What would your monthly budget be if you were a renter, before even arriving at the FBO?

Insurance?
Charts?
Medical?
BFR?
M&M's from candy machine in FBO?

There are some costs that are inherent to being a pilot. There are other costs that require the actual title to an airplane to incur.

 

[steingar]

how do you propose I get to work if I don't have a vehicle ? even if it was dedicated to this purpose it would be worth it vs the aternative of dragging the boat out of the water to take it to a filling station.

Not all of us need pickup trucks to haul our boats out of the water. Indeed, not all of us need pickup trucks for much of anything.

 

[bnt83]

Not all of us need pickup trucks to haul our boats out of the water. Indeed, not all of us need pickup trucks for much of anything.

My 2002 Impala is my pickup. With the back seat out, it hauls aircompressors, airplane parts etc.

 

[wabower]

Depending on activity level and location, maybe all. Maybe none.

What would your monthly budget be if you were a renter, before even arriving at the FBO?

Insurance?
Charts?
Medical?
BFR?
M&M's from candy machine in FBO?

There are some costs that are inherent to being a pilot. There are other costs that require the actual title to an airplane to incur.

 

[EdFred]

What would your monthly budget be if you were a renter, before even arriving at the FBO?

Insurance? $0
Charts? $10
Medical? $1.25
BFR? $4.25
M&M's from candy machine in FBO? $0

There are some costs that are inherent to being a pilot. There are other costs that require the actual title to an airplane to incur.

I didn't have renters insurance.
Medical is good for 5 years
Flight review is a hundo.
FBO never had candy.

 

[JHW]

Then gasoline isn't attributed to ownership of a plane either. Because hey, you're also paying for it when you rent, right? And I never had renters insurance.

That's the way I figure it. The plane in the hangar doesn't use any fuel. If the kids want to go to the beach for the weekend, the gas to get there is a cost of going to the beach, it's not a cost of owning a plane.

 

[JHW]

Not all of us need pickup trucks to haul our boats out of the water. Indeed, not all of us need pickup trucks for much of anything.

yet more people than not have one, so might as well use it

 

[EdFred]

That's the way I figure it. The plane in the hangar doesn't use any fuel. If the kids want to go to the beach for the weekend, the gas to get there is a cost of going to the beach, it's not a cost of owning a plane.

I see you and Tony use the same accountant. Just label everything as an entertainment cost and airplane ownership costs $0.

 

[JHW]

I see you and Tony use the same accountant. Just label everything as an entertainment cost and airplane ownership costs $0.

If you drive your car to yellowstone on vacation do you figure the cost of gas is a cost of going to yellowstone or a cost of owning a car?

 

[EdFred]

If you drive your car to yellowstone on vacation do you figure the cost of gas is a cost of going to yellowstone or a cost of owning a car?

If I didn't own the car would I put gas in it?
It all gets filed under car ownership.

 

[wabower]

If you went with a friend in his Comanche and bought the same amount of fuel, how would you book it?

If I didn't own the car would I put gas in it?
It all gets filed under car ownership.

 

[JHW]

If I didn't own the car would I put gas in it?
It all gets filed under car ownership.

but you do already own a car, and a plane. As do I. And since I'll own a plane whether or not I use it for the next trip, the sunk cost is immaterial.

When the kids ask to go to their cousin's house for the weekend I think whether or not I have anything else to do in kansas that's worth 110 gal of fuel and sometimes the answer is no.

I DON'T think that I flew 120 hours last year at an average cost of $227.60/hr and them I add 4 hours for this trip to that total my new hourly cost will be $223.41. Who looks at the world that way?

Owning a plane is my toy money. If not a plane then that money would be wasted on a lake house or some other nonsense.

 

[EdFred]

If you went with a friend in his Comanche and bought the same amount of fuel, how would you book it?

As a violation of 61.113.

 

[wabower]

His owns a twin and runs ROP.

As a violation of 61.113.

 

[EdFred]

but you do already own a car, and a plane. As do I. And since I'll own a plane whether or not I use it for the next trip, the sunk cost is immaterial.

When the kids ask to go to their cousin's house for the weekend I think whether or not I have anything else to do in kansas that's worth 110 gal of fuel and sometimes the answer is no.

I DON'T think that I flew 120 hours last year at an average cost of $227.60/hr and them I add 4 hours for this trip to that total my new hourly cost will be $223.41. Who looks at the world that way?

Owning a plane is my toy money. If not a plane then that money would be wasted on a lake house or some other nonsense.

If I didn't own, I wouldn't fly. All money spent in association with my flying is directly atrributable to owning. Ergo, it's the cost of owning. If I didn't own a car, I would use public transportation. But I do own a car, so everything that goes into the car is the cost of owning. Plus at the end of the year when I take a tax deduction for travel costs, guess what gets added up...everything. Cost of ownership.

 

[JoseCuervo]

If I didn't own, I wouldn't fly. All money spent in association with my flying is directly atrributable to owning. Ergo, it's the cost of owning. If I didn't own a car, I would use public transportation. But I do own a car, so everything that goes into the car is the cost of owning. Plus at the end of the year when I take a tax deduction for travel costs, guess what gets added up...everything. Cost of ownership.

I used to have a great Brittany Spaniel. I got the dog when I was young, trained the dog and ended up with a great hunting dog. That dog could find birds everywhere, was beautiful on point and loved to hunt. I hunted ALL the time because those big eyes would be waiting for me when I got home, and I eventually decided that most of my enjoyment of hunting birds was the dog work and the time spent with the dog. After my dog died, my passion for hunting birds, not big game, definitely waned.

Unlike hunting, my enjoyment of flying is not solely tied to the ownership of an airplane. There are no big, sad eyes on an airplane to emotionally tug you to go fly today (there may be sad eyes on the checkbook).

The fact that you seem to lump anything associated with flying solely to the fact you own an airplane may be some creative emotional accounting on your part.

Insurance (protecting your estate, assets, etc) is a decision you make as a Pilot, not an Owner. Put the plane in the hangar and don't fly it, you likely have no need for insurance. For some reason you made a decision to not have insurance as a renter, but then changed to having insurance as an owner.

Charts, medicals, variable operating costs, are all driven by you being a Pilot, not an owner. The guys above are correct. The fuel spent flying to the beach is a cost of taking kids to the beach for vacation, not the cost of owning an airplane.

The cost of airplane ownership would include items like:

• Tie-downs/Hangar
• Insurance in excess the cost of Renter's Insurance
• Annual
• Maintenance
• Taxes
• Amortization of Purchase
• Interest, if applicable.

Essentially, the items required to keep the plane airworthy, independent of ever getting the wheels off the ground.

 

[EdFred]

I've been doing it all wrong. My bank account will be happy to learn that flying the plane costs nothing. I will also see if I can convince the credit card companies of this newfound information.

 

[JHW]

I've been doing it all wrong. My bank account will be happy to learn that flying the plane costs nothing. I will also see if I can convince the credit card companies of this newfound information.

well your first thought is correct. Perhaps by subtracting a little sarcasm and replacing it with a little thought, you'll get to where you can conduct this conversation in a more rational manner.

Meantime I'm going to run up to detroit and back tonight, and since my plane is already loaded to the gills for the 4th of July trip, I'm going to take my neighbor's 414. By your logic, the fuel I use for this trip is my cost of my neighbor owning a 414. If he'd just sell that plane I'd have a lot more money to flash around because I'd magically have no more need to go anywhere.

 

[EdFred]

When tax time comes, I deduct an hourly cost. That hourly cost is determined by everything that went into flying that plane for the year. That's the cost of owning and operating.

Technically owning a plane costs nothing other than initial acquisition costs. You can own a plane and let it go to hell in your back yard, zoning ordinances notwithstanding. Monthly cost to do so: Nothing.

So, there you go. Ownership only costs you the purchase price. Monthly cost to own = $0 if you paid cash up front.

 

[JHW]

since when does tax treatment have anything to do with real life ?

in my case, my beechcraft is personal transportation, nothing gets deducted. The pawnee is a farm implement, everything gets deducted.

taking the kids to visit grandma is not tax deductible

 

[EdFred]

since when does tax treatment have anything to do with real life ?

in my case, my beechcraft is personal transportation, nothing gets deducted. The pawnee is a farm implement, everything gets deducted.

taking the kids to visit grandma is not tax deductible

The hours where I use mine for business I get to deduct it. How is the hourly cost determined? That's the cost of owning/operating for the year.

 

[wabower]

You need to hope you don't get audited.

The hours where I use mine for business I get to deduct it. How is the hourly cost determined? That's the cost of owning/operating for the year.

 

[EdFred]

You need to hope you don't get audited.

Ran it past my tax guy. He said it was Kosher. Plus the handful of hours I use it isn't enough to trigger anything. For my income, the average deductions taken were 75% more than what I was claiming - and that's ALL my deductions, not just business travel.

 

[Tony_Scarpelli]

Why wouldn't an owner just spend a little more time doing whatever he does to generate the money and eliminate the hassle of schlepping gas cans around the airport? It's even worse for high-wing planes.

Your question assumes one simply need work harder to make more money. That may or may not be the case. A penny saved is a penny earned. B. Franklyn.

 

[JHW]

Your question assumes one simply need work harder to make more money. That may or may not be the case. A penny saved is a penny earned. B. Franklyn.

might have been true in franklin's time, but in our time a penny saved is 2 pennies earned. But neither amount will buy anything.

as far as unleaded gas though, I'd schlep autofuel to the airport even if it cost more. I hate leaded fuel.

 

[wabower]

Run-of-the-mill years, maybe so. Other years NFW absent Sec 179 or other special rules.

Ran it past my tax guy. He said it was Kosher. Plus the handful of hours I use it isn't enough to trigger anything. For my income, the average deductions taken were 75% more than what I was claiming - and that's ALL my deductions, not just business travel.