Multi-Engine Add-on Part 141 GI Bill

ShaneFalco

ShaneFalco

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ShaneFalco
I'm an instrument-rated commercial pilot with about 750 hours, and am interested in adding a multi-engine rating. I have a couple of years left on my GI Bill (100%) so I'm looking for a 141 school that takes VA. Several schools call this a "multi-engine add-on."

I did both my comm and instrument via accelerated programs where you fly several times a day then knock out the checkride. As my work affords very little time off, that's pretty much the only way I'll get this done. Open to anywhere in the Southeast, possibly TX as well (I live in Tennessee). While I also would prefer a airplane with a more modern stack (i.e. 650/750 instead of 430/530), that's not a deciding factor--quality of instruction is.

I've talked wit SkyWarrior, CTI, KingSky and a couple of others, but it's just people on the phone. CTI is closest but they don't take students that aren't in their university partnership unless a hole opens up in their schedule--and I prefer not to sit around hoping for a last-minute call five months from now (which is what they offered).

My question: has anyone done this in the last couple of years, and if so, would you share your good/bad experiences? Short of flying out on weekends to visit each school (which I will probably do with 1 or 2 most promising) this forum seems the next best thing.
 
It was not GI Bill, but I did mine at CRAFT in Charleston. I did my IR, CP and ME all with them and was very happy with the process, the people and the results. I'd say give them a call and they can tell you whether the GI Bill stuff works or not.
 
Dang, timing is everything. I was literally in Charleston the weekend before last. Flew right over Summerville and just north of CHA on my way into LRO. Could have checked it out in person.

An interesting data point is that most of these "add on" programs are priced about the same (between $7500-$8500), but the hours are different. SkyWarrior includes 15 hours (+2 hours checkride rental) in a Seminole with a 430, Kingsky 15 hours in a Seneca (equipage not yet known, I have a call in), CRAFT includes 8 hours in a DA-40 with a G1000. So there are trades, as in everything. I would be surprised if I'm ready to check in 8 hours, so figuring CRAFT will be more expensive, but certainly nice.

Any others who can share their experience?
 
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The MEI add on can be done in 8 hrs. You have to do more self studying for that rating,it’s about the systems.
 
ShaneFalco said:
Dang, timing is everything. I was literally in Charleston the weekend before last. Flew right over Summerville and just north of CHA on my way into LRO. Could have checked it out in person.

An interesting data point is that most of these "add on" programs are priced about the same (between $7500-$8500), but the hours are different. SkyWarrior includes 15 hours (+2 hours checkride rental) in a Seminole with a 430, Kingsky 15 hours in a Seneca (equipage not yet known, I have a call in), CRAFT includes 8 hours in a DA-40 with a G1000. So there are trades, as in everything. I would be surprised if I'm ready to check in 8 hours, so figuring CRAFT will be more expensive, but certainly nice.

Any others who can share their experience?
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I had 7.4 when I took the ride. Plus a couple of hours in the sim working procedures. Was I comfortable? No. Did I pass? Yes. But when I went for the club checkout the CFI had me do all of it to demo to her. Steep turns, VMC demo, OEI gamut including instrument approach, everything I’d done in training. And in a new to me airplane. And I could do it all within CP tolerances. So the training works. And I found them very easy and professional to work with.
 
frfly172 said:
The MEI add on can be done in 8 hrs. You have to do more self studying for that rating,it’s about the systems.
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Under Part 141 (since this is going to be VA training) he will need to follow the curriculum which includes a minimum of 10 hours of training with 4 hours of cross country and 5 hours of hood time. See 14 CFR 141 App I Paragraph (j)(2). I think this is why most programs are 15 (or even 20) hours. My Program (20 hours in a Piper Geronimo by NAFC at KANP) was able to get me reimbursed by the VA for 20 hours of dual, 14 hours of ground, and a bunch of pre/post time with the instructor (can't remember how much offhand). However, the price of renting the plane had recently gone up (like everything else) but the VA was slow to agree to increase the rate they will reimburse at, so I was under-reimbursed by between $20 and $40 per hour for the plane for most of the training. The whole process is a bit of a pain.
 
RingLaserGyroSandwich said:
Under Part 141 (since this is going to be VA training) he will need to follow the curriculum which includes a minimum of 10 hours of training with 4 hours of cross country and 5 hours of hood time. See 14 CFR 141 App I Paragraph (j)(2). I think this is why most programs are 15 (or even 20) hours. My Program (20 hours in a Piper Geronimo by NAFC at KANP) was able to get me reimbursed by the VA for 20 hours of dual, 14 hours of ground, and a bunch of pre/post time with the instructor (can't remember how much offhand). However, the price of renting the plane had recently gone up (like everything else) but the VA was slow to agree to increase the rate they will reimburse at, so I was under-reimbursed by between $20 and $40 per hour for the plane for most of the training. The whole process is a bit of a pain.
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I’m so sorry it was such a pain in the ass.
 
Oh I didn’t read carefully. MEI has different requirements than ME add on. Same basic issues apply for 141/VA, though.
 
Assuming you’re using Post 9/11. I used mine for my CFI. I then paid out of pocket for the MEI and CFII. The ME, MEI, and CFII ratings are inexpensive in comparison to your other ratings. The ME add on and MEI are about 5 hours each. The CFII was about 5 hours. I look at how much is one month of Post 9/11 benefits worth?

Personally I would not use my GI bill for the CFII, ME or MEI. They deduct so many months more than the actual cost. I would definitely use Post 9/11 on the PPL, Instrument, CPL, and initial CFI assuming you’re enrolled in a degree program that pays 100%.


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I just got CRAFT newsletter. They are now VA accredited.
 
Fracpilot said:
Assuming you’re using Post 9/11. I used mine for my CFI. I then paid out of pocket for the MEI and CFII. The ME, MEI, and CFII ratings are inexpensive in comparison to your other ratings. The ME add on and MEI are about 5 hours each. The CFII was about 5 hours. I look at how much is one month of Post 9/11 benefits worth?

Personally I would not use my GI bill for the CFII, ME or MEI. They deduct so many months more than the actual cost. I would definitely use Post 9/11 on the PPL, Instrument, CPL, and initial CFI assuming you’re enrolled in a degree program that pays 100%.
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Yup, this is the point I'm at as well. I used Post-9/11 for CFI, and I'll just pay out of pocket for the others. Or probably use the VA certification exam reimbursement for the checkride.
 
Call Pray Aviation out of Wichita. They do GI bill stuff and are reasonably priced.

$8500 seems like a whole lot for something that is going to take you less than 10 hours to do, even if that includes the checkride.
 
I liked the above for the "whole lot of money" remark which I agree with. I feel like "Pray Aviation" is one sketchy name for a flight training outfit, but know nothing about them. "Jesus, take the yoke" should not be on any flight checklist IMHO. :D
 
schmookeeg said:
I liked the above for the "whole lot of money" remark which I agree with. I feel like "Pray Aviation" is one sketchy name for a flight training outfit, but know nothing about them. "Jesus, take the yoke" should not be on any flight checklist IMHO. :D
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It’s the owners last name. Nothing religious affiliated about it.
 
Updating this: I was scheduled to go last Christmas break to do the 141 ME add-on, but my flights to Florida were on Southwest. They of course had the Christmas 2022 meltdown of their IT systems that cancelled a ton of flights (including mine) and those that weren't cancelled were instantly booked to capacity. I thus had to scrub the training, as I wouldn't have made it back to work in time. As it's difficult for me to take a week+ off of work during the normal year, I ended up re-scheduling for this Christmas break.

My question: for those who have done this under the GI Bill, how many months of eligibility does the VA charge you use for a roughly $7,500 course? The one I'm enrolled in lists 15 hours ground/15 hours flight training. I'm asking because my benefits expire at the end of 2024 and I'd like to squeeze in all the training that I can.
 
ShaneFalco said:
Updating this: I was scheduled to go last Christmas break to do the 141 ME add-on, but my flights to Florida were on Southwest. They of course had the Christmas 2022 meltdown of their IT systems that cancelled a ton of flights (including mine) and those that weren't cancelled were instantly booked to capacity. I thus had to scrub the training, as I wouldn't have made it back to work in time. As it's difficult for me to take a week+ off of work during the normal year, I ended up re-scheduling for this Christmas break.

My question: for those who have done this under the GI Bill, how many months of eligibility does the VA charge you use for a roughly $7,500 course? The one I'm enrolled in lists 15 hours ground/15 hours flight training. I'm asking because my benefits expire at the end of 2024 and I'd like to squeeze in all the training that I can.
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It's just straight math. Take the maximum annual amount for flight training and divide $7500 by it. So, if the annual limit is $15000 (I don't know what the current number is, just an example), then $7500 is 6 months worth.
 
RussR said:
It's just straight math. Take the maximum annual amount for flight training and divide $7500 by it. So, if the annual limit is $15000 (I don't know what the current number is, just an example), then $7500 is 6 months worth.
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The schools I've talked with tell me it's not a straight dollars equation, that the VA evaluates a bunch of factors (classroom hours, flight hours, length of training, etc.), and the schools themselves don't always know what the student gets charged in terms of eligibility months. Thus my question, in order to get an idea from those who have actually done so...how many months of eligibility were you ultimately charged by the VA?

FYI the maximum reimbursement for flight training is currently $15,497.15 per year.
 
ShaneFalco said:
The schools I've talked with tell me it's not a straight dollars equation, that the VA evaluates a bunch of factors (classroom hours, flight hours, length of training, etc.), and the schools themselves don't always know what the student gets charged in terms of eligibility months. Thus my question, in order to get an idea from those who have actually done so...how many months of eligibility were you ultimately charged by the VA?

FYI the maximum reimbursement for flight training is currently $15,497.15 per year.
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If that's true, then the formula and/or method has changed recently, because it was exactly as I described when I last used GI Bill benefits in this manner in 2019. I did also learn that very few schools had an in-depth understanding of the GI Bill other than how to fill out the forms, and I definitely didn't get a sense they had any clue about how to determine how many months I'd be "charged".

It does definitely matter if you're doing the training as part of a college course or not. That changes the equation greatly. My example is from a non-college program, i.e. normal Part 141 school, as it seemed yours is from your post. But if I'm wrong then the advice does not apply. I did two ratings in this manner, and one through a college course. The college course was pretty straight-up "how many months did it take".
 
RussR said:
If that's true, then the formula and/or method has changed recently, because it was exactly as I described when I last used GI Bill benefits in this manner in 2019. I did also learn that very few schools had an in-depth understanding of the GI Bill other than how to fill out the forms, and I definitely didn't get a sense they had any clue about how to determine how many months I'd be "charged".

It does definitely matter if you're doing the training as part of a college course or not. That changes the equation greatly. My example is from a non-college program, i.e. normal Part 141 school, as it seemed yours is from your post. But if I'm wrong then the advice does not apply. I did two ratings in this manner, and one through a college course. The college course was pretty straight-up "how many months did it take".
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My experience thus far aligns with yours that the schools don't seem to really have an understanding of the GI Bill program, other than how to bill for it. And perhaps there's no reason they should. My earlier post was an amalgamation of three conversations, but all of them could be chalked up to "I don't really know, so I'll just say that it depends upon a variety of factors." Another school just flat out said "we have no idea, so we suggest you contact the VA directly."
But if your experience still holds true, then that's good news, as I'll have enough to do what I'm hoping to do. Thanks for sharing.
 
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