Ted
The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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iFlyNothing
A month or so ago I started this thread on maybe LS-swapping the Disco:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/thinking-about-ls-swapping-the-discovery.129858/
Our favorite local Cat supporter @NealRomeoGolf started chatting about the prospect of something far more interesting than an LS swap, swapping in a Caterpillar diesel.
Obviously there are some significant considerations with this. For one, the Disco's engine bay is designed around a V8 or a stock diesel 4-cylinder. Typical Caterpillar engines are much larger, with a 3116/3126 like I have in the RV being long enough that it would stick out about 6-12" in front of the grille currently, not to mention weigh around 1200-1300 lbs by itself. Obviously, that's not very practical.
However Cat does make some smaller industrial engines which are of interest, the 3114 and the C4.4. It's worth noting that this same concept is commonly done by others - the Cummins R2.8 and before that Cummins 4BT swaps are popping up all over, and both have been shoehorned into Discos before. I've not seen very many people swap either of the Cat diesels in, but I suspect that has less to do with the engines themselves. It's still been done - there's a 70s Dodge pickup out there with a 3114 in it.
Putting a Cat engine in would be a whole lot more fun than an LS. For one, not many people do it and I'd have the only Cat-powered Discovery in the world (an obvious plus for The Ted). For two, I really am more of a Cat fan personally, and if given the choice between Cat vs. Cummins I'll always pick the Cat. There are some more engine-specific items that I like about the Caterpillar engine we think is the best fit (more in a second on that).
So, looking at them, the 3114 vs. the C4.4 have pro and cons. The C4.4 was originally a Perkins design. Cat bought Perkins in the late 90s, and it's since been rebadged as the C4.4 with some changes along the lines mostly for emissions and to increase power input options. The "Perkipillar" engine is more commonly available, but has a few drawbacks. For one, the rated RPM is around 2,200. This is fairly low given the gearing of the Disco and available transmission options and would give a significant restriction on top speed, while also putting a whole lot of torque through the driveshafts. If I changed the gearing in the pumpkins to be more optimized for a lower RPM engine, that's 1) a lot of extra work and 2) increases strain on the driveshafts which could break other things down the road. Lastly, the later C4.4s which have higher power (and torque) ratings are all computer-controlled and so that would require some sort of electronic throttle setup rather than simply attaching a mechanical cable.
The 3114 makes for a really good option. They have rated RPMs up to 2,800 (a much better fit for this car with the gearing) and they were all mechanical. Out the door they went out to 160 HP. However, it looks as though Cat worked on a 195 HP 3114 that was probably similar to the marine spec 3116 that made 300ish HP. Because the 3114 is mechanical, it seems like it would be fairly straightforward to turn it up some, and because of the application it would be installed in, I would feel comfortable turning up the power quite a bit without concern since the higher horsepower output would be for shorter periods of time. My plan is to upgrade the stock turbo with a $100 Chinese copy of the Holset HX35 (used on the early 12-valve 5.9 Cummins engines) which would provide the extra airflow/boost required for more power. The 3114 has a water-to-air aftercooler (at least most of them do) and does not use a cross-flow head, which makes packaging quite compact and not needing to run air duct hoses all over. The aftercooler normally uses the standard engine coolant, but I should be able to re-plumb it for a secondary cooling circuit to help keep those temps lower.
The 3114 uses an SAE 3 bellhousing pattern. There are a few options that exist for this transmission wise:
1) Bellhousings are sold that will couple the transmission to the NV4500 transmission, which was used behind early 12-valve 5.9 Cummins engines in Rams. Plenty of strength there, and of course as everyone knows, I far prefer manual transmissions.
2) There are adapters to GM bellhousings, which would allow a 4L80E or 6L80E. The 6L80E has better ratios and would be ideal from that perspective, but there doesn't seem to be a stand-alone controller for it, it was designed around having an electronic controlled engine. The 4L80E is easy to control stand-alone.
I also looked at the Allison 1000 transmission that's used behind the Duramax, but it is far heavier than any other option and doesn't seem to make any sense.
After doing some measurements on the Land Rover vs. dimensions I could find on the 3114 (and also measuring against the 3126B I conveniently have in the RV) a 3114 looks like it will fit, albeit tightly. It is possible that a body lift of a couple inches might be required for a bit of clearance, but that is easy, cheap, and actually makes it look a little better. Accessories are not particularly difficult to deal with as there aren't many, although I may need to make a few changes to the specific accessories used to help packaging. But really, not too concerning. Obviously the fuel system will require some modification, but still not too worrisome.
The engine weighs more, about 400 lbs heavier. But there are also heavier front springs that are sold today that slide right in. That's a simple solution.
So next seems to come the hardest part - finding a 3114. While 3116s are all over the place and readily available, the 3114 seemed to have been an engine that was put in comparatively few applications with few available. Between Google, local CraigsList, local Facebook Marketplace, eBay, so far we've come up short. The ones we found for sale for a reasonable price (<$5k is the goal) were sold. One place (4Trucks in Florida) does have 2 engines, but they're incomplete and are asking $7,500 each plus a core charge. Admittedly, I haven't worked much with SearchTempest or any of the search engines that search all of these areas better, and I should, but have been busy the past week with mother-related items.
If anyone wants to be part of this project, we could definitely use some help in sourcing an engine. I'm fine with one that may need some work (in fact the one we had looked to purchase had blow-by and would require re-ringing) but looking for a reasonable price on one of these. I'm sure that there is someone out there who has one, and it is likely hidden on some local CraigsList/Facebook Marketplace/etc. location. Sadly, just not right here. They might be listed as a 3114, 3114T, or 3114TA. There are different ratings, but probably none would be different enough to matter.
Yes, I know I'm crazy, but that's part of the fun.
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/thinking-about-ls-swapping-the-discovery.129858/
Our favorite local Cat supporter @NealRomeoGolf started chatting about the prospect of something far more interesting than an LS swap, swapping in a Caterpillar diesel.
Obviously there are some significant considerations with this. For one, the Disco's engine bay is designed around a V8 or a stock diesel 4-cylinder. Typical Caterpillar engines are much larger, with a 3116/3126 like I have in the RV being long enough that it would stick out about 6-12" in front of the grille currently, not to mention weigh around 1200-1300 lbs by itself. Obviously, that's not very practical.
However Cat does make some smaller industrial engines which are of interest, the 3114 and the C4.4. It's worth noting that this same concept is commonly done by others - the Cummins R2.8 and before that Cummins 4BT swaps are popping up all over, and both have been shoehorned into Discos before. I've not seen very many people swap either of the Cat diesels in, but I suspect that has less to do with the engines themselves. It's still been done - there's a 70s Dodge pickup out there with a 3114 in it.
Putting a Cat engine in would be a whole lot more fun than an LS. For one, not many people do it and I'd have the only Cat-powered Discovery in the world (an obvious plus for The Ted). For two, I really am more of a Cat fan personally, and if given the choice between Cat vs. Cummins I'll always pick the Cat. There are some more engine-specific items that I like about the Caterpillar engine we think is the best fit (more in a second on that).
So, looking at them, the 3114 vs. the C4.4 have pro and cons. The C4.4 was originally a Perkins design. Cat bought Perkins in the late 90s, and it's since been rebadged as the C4.4 with some changes along the lines mostly for emissions and to increase power input options. The "Perkipillar" engine is more commonly available, but has a few drawbacks. For one, the rated RPM is around 2,200. This is fairly low given the gearing of the Disco and available transmission options and would give a significant restriction on top speed, while also putting a whole lot of torque through the driveshafts. If I changed the gearing in the pumpkins to be more optimized for a lower RPM engine, that's 1) a lot of extra work and 2) increases strain on the driveshafts which could break other things down the road. Lastly, the later C4.4s which have higher power (and torque) ratings are all computer-controlled and so that would require some sort of electronic throttle setup rather than simply attaching a mechanical cable.
The 3114 makes for a really good option. They have rated RPMs up to 2,800 (a much better fit for this car with the gearing) and they were all mechanical. Out the door they went out to 160 HP. However, it looks as though Cat worked on a 195 HP 3114 that was probably similar to the marine spec 3116 that made 300ish HP. Because the 3114 is mechanical, it seems like it would be fairly straightforward to turn it up some, and because of the application it would be installed in, I would feel comfortable turning up the power quite a bit without concern since the higher horsepower output would be for shorter periods of time. My plan is to upgrade the stock turbo with a $100 Chinese copy of the Holset HX35 (used on the early 12-valve 5.9 Cummins engines) which would provide the extra airflow/boost required for more power. The 3114 has a water-to-air aftercooler (at least most of them do) and does not use a cross-flow head, which makes packaging quite compact and not needing to run air duct hoses all over. The aftercooler normally uses the standard engine coolant, but I should be able to re-plumb it for a secondary cooling circuit to help keep those temps lower.
The 3114 uses an SAE 3 bellhousing pattern. There are a few options that exist for this transmission wise:
1) Bellhousings are sold that will couple the transmission to the NV4500 transmission, which was used behind early 12-valve 5.9 Cummins engines in Rams. Plenty of strength there, and of course as everyone knows, I far prefer manual transmissions.
2) There are adapters to GM bellhousings, which would allow a 4L80E or 6L80E. The 6L80E has better ratios and would be ideal from that perspective, but there doesn't seem to be a stand-alone controller for it, it was designed around having an electronic controlled engine. The 4L80E is easy to control stand-alone.
I also looked at the Allison 1000 transmission that's used behind the Duramax, but it is far heavier than any other option and doesn't seem to make any sense.
After doing some measurements on the Land Rover vs. dimensions I could find on the 3114 (and also measuring against the 3126B I conveniently have in the RV) a 3114 looks like it will fit, albeit tightly. It is possible that a body lift of a couple inches might be required for a bit of clearance, but that is easy, cheap, and actually makes it look a little better. Accessories are not particularly difficult to deal with as there aren't many, although I may need to make a few changes to the specific accessories used to help packaging. But really, not too concerning. Obviously the fuel system will require some modification, but still not too worrisome.
The engine weighs more, about 400 lbs heavier. But there are also heavier front springs that are sold today that slide right in. That's a simple solution.
So next seems to come the hardest part - finding a 3114. While 3116s are all over the place and readily available, the 3114 seemed to have been an engine that was put in comparatively few applications with few available. Between Google, local CraigsList, local Facebook Marketplace, eBay, so far we've come up short. The ones we found for sale for a reasonable price (<$5k is the goal) were sold. One place (4Trucks in Florida) does have 2 engines, but they're incomplete and are asking $7,500 each plus a core charge. Admittedly, I haven't worked much with SearchTempest or any of the search engines that search all of these areas better, and I should, but have been busy the past week with mother-related items.
If anyone wants to be part of this project, we could definitely use some help in sourcing an engine. I'm fine with one that may need some work (in fact the one we had looked to purchase had blow-by and would require re-ringing) but looking for a reasonable price on one of these. I'm sure that there is someone out there who has one, and it is likely hidden on some local CraigsList/Facebook Marketplace/etc. location. Sadly, just not right here. They might be listed as a 3114, 3114T, or 3114TA. There are different ratings, but probably none would be different enough to matter.
Yes, I know I'm crazy, but that's part of the fun.
