More questions re: autogas

Geico266 said:
I've pumped over 10,000 gallons of unleaded fuel through this baby.

fuel_tank.JPG


I've saved over $12,000 burning mogas.
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Where and how do you buy your unleaded, non-ethanol gas? Do you have a self-service pump somewhere or do you have to have it pumped by someone else? Is there a problem using an unapproved (I assume) gas tank?

If a new carb fixes my CHT problem, THEN I might consider running mogas, if I can find it. But time is money so if it is going to take time away from work or flying or other valuable hobbies, it might not be worth it. I already waste way to much time on POA.
 
JOhnH, good on ya. Glad you found the likely source.
In my case it was a Cessna specific carb on a Piper installation. They had to fly around with the mixture handle about 2 inches displaced from the other engine's mixture.

Tim - good catch. I left out one word - wire. The clamp around the intake tube was for the "wire" from the EGT.

Yes, gas terminals that will sell straight gas are becoming harder to find. The one the guys on my field used for well over a decade has a new owner recently and they are NOT friendly. There is a pickup with a tank and another trailer with a tank, that are now sitting idle at my field. You can still buy the gas from the terminal but they have a 2000 gallon minimum and you have to have a tanker truck with the correct hoses, etc. so you can load it yourself. They say it costs them too much to have a man come out and pump 250 gallons.
 
JOhnH said:
Where and how do you buy your unleaded, non-ethanol gas?
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Daytona Beach UNBRANDED 87 93 Cunningham's Gas & Grills [386-255-7705] 201 Ridgewood Ave

JOhnH said:
Is there a problem using an unapproved (I assume) gas tank?
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The regs may very well vary from state to state but, around here, one can transport up to 110 gallons without issue. More than that and one must have DOT approved, manufactured, apparatus.
 
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timwinters said:
Daytona Beach UNBRANDED 87 93 Cunningham's Gas & Grills [386-255-7705] 201 Ridgewood Ave
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I called them yesterday. $4.93/gallon for the 93 octane. 100ll is $4.99 at my home airport. I just can't see going to all that trouble for $0.06/gallon savings. I would spill more than that.

But if I ever get the CHT issue straightened out I may consider buying mogas if I ever visit an airport that sells it on site. But there are only 3 of those in Florida where I do most of my flying, and they are not close.
 
timwinters said:
This is quite variable from region to region. It's EASY to find ethanol-free gas in some areas...hard in others. It's a topic on which blanket statements don't work well.
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Exactly, I didn't make a "blanket" statement. I said that the Marinas are having as hard a time as everyone else. If you're in an area where the terminal has E-free gas available, they can get it and so typically can gas stations that chose to purchase it as well.

Up here in Northern Virginia where there is an oxygenate (read ethanol, now that MTBE has been regulated out as an option) mandate for much of the year, it is near impossible to get non-E gas anywhere. As you head south towards Lynchburg you start seeing it more. Down at my place in NC, I can find it pretty easily either across the board at some stations or in the high test. Fortunately, my boat is down there and not up here in NoVa.

The E gas has a very nasty habit of picking up water (which is why it's bad in boats) which is bad for infrequently used things like lawn equipment. My wife's little John Deere tractor was behaving like crap but a can of ethanol-free hightest cleared that right up.
 
JOhnH said:
I called them yesterday. $4.93/gallon for the 93 octane. 100ll is $4.99 at my home airport. I just can't see going to all that trouble for $0.06/gallon savings. I would spill more than that.
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You shouldn't spill any, I don't, and until this month I was based at a field without any fuel, so all my home fill-ups were via 5 gallon cans...got 20 of 'em.

If there's no difference in price then you're only consideration is what's best for your engine. If your engine was originally designed to run 80 octane then it'll probably like some MoGas. And, remember that it doesnt have to be an either/or thing. I typically run a 2/1 blend. (MoGas/avgas).

You got me thoroughly confused though. If you knew about Cunninghams then why did you ask Geico:
JOhnH said:
Where and how do you buy your unleaded, non-ethanol gas?
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???
 
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timwinters said:
You got me thoroughly confused though. If you knew about Cunninghams then why did you ask Geico:

???
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Sorry.
Geico doesn't live around here. I wanted to know how far he had to travel to get it and what type of distributor get got his gas from. And I was wanted to know if his container was "approved" and whether that caused him any issues when/if getting it filled by someone else. In other words, how much time, trouble or legal risk it was costing him.

I wasn't asking him for advice on where I should buy mogas.

Funny thing is; I just got a call from my hangar leasing agent. They were inspected by the fire department today. They found several hangars that didn't have a fire extinguisher and they found one that had gas cans in them, which is against regs and lease agreement. I am not sure what is going to happen to him, but I am glad it wasn't me.
 
they found one that had gas cans in them, which is against regs and lease agreement.
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Next they'll ask you to take the fuel and tanks out of your airplane before pushing it into the hangar, eh??? :)
 
timwinters said:
Next they'll ask you to take the fuel and tanks out of your airplane before pushing it into the hangar, eh??? :)
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That was my first thought:dunno:

But I am getting used to stupid government inspections making sure I do all sorts of stupid things. Or making sure that I don't do even stupider things that nobody in their right mind would ever do any way. And if they did, they deserve what they get.
 
JOhnH said:
That was my first thought:dunno:

But I am getting used to stupid government inspections making sure I do all sorts of stupid things. Or making sure that I don't do even stupider things that nobody in their right mind would ever do any way. And if they did, they deserve what they get.
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Your opinion might be different if your aircraft gets consumed in the fire when the hangar occupant next door does something stupid. Chances are, they won't be held liable for your damages when they do. I've got a good friend who lost an aircraft through a fire caused by someone defueling a different aircraft.

Fuel in vehicle fuel tanks is one thing. Fuel in loose gas cans is another. Fuel in some half assed unapproved for gasoline tank that someone cobbled together is even more fool hardy. If they want to park that thing outside and take the risks that's one thing, it don't belong in hangars that are part of a common structure.
 
flyingron said:
Your opinion might be different if your aircraft gets consumed in the fire when the hangar occupant next door does something stupid. Chances are, they won't be held liable for your damages when they do. I've got a good friend who lost an aircraft through a fire caused by someone defueling a different aircraft.

Fuel in vehicle fuel tanks is one thing. Fuel in loose gas cans is another. Fuel in some half assed unapproved for gasoline tank that someone cobbled together is even more fool hardy. If they want to park that thing outside and take the risks that's one thing, it don't belong in hangars that are part of a common structure.
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I don't disagree with any of that. That is why I asked several questions about whether the tanks people are buying and transporting mogas in are approved.

As for the other "stupid" regs I was talking about, I was referring to things unrelated to flying. Like the tax audit that tried to fine be $45,00 for following written guidelines that the auditor happened to disagree with (regarding "prescription" pet food). And I am currently in the process of responding to a Florida DOH inspection where, among other things, my training protocol for my employees does not specifically mention that when they clean up "hazardous" waste with bleach, they shouldn't get the bleach in their eyes or drink the bleach. Even though I don't generate hazardous waste. Those rules are written for human hospitals and reference cleaning up human blood. I have an ANIMAL hospital that ONLY sees cats.

And code enforcement tried to fine me because I replaced St Augustine grass with a more drought tolerant variety without a permit.
And the fire department wrote me up because I didn't have a sign pointing to the exit in a room that only had ONE exit.
And the list goes on. Another day, another inspection or another license fee.

I got a letter from the IRS saying I might be under reporting cash income because the amount of cash I report is too low. They didn't say anything about the fact that my income actually went up almost 25% and it was almost all debit card increases. Nobody uses cash any more. but I have to reply to their stupid threatening letter.
 
flyingron said:
Your opinion might be different if your aircraft gets consumed in the fire when the hangar occupant next door does something stupid. Chances are, they won't be held liable for your damages when they do. I've got a good friend who lost an aircraft through a fire caused by someone defueling a different aircraft.
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Ever notice how far off the slab all the outlets and other electrical devices in your hangar are? Ever wonder why?

Because gas vapors drop to the ground.

So...

Some guy has a beer frig sitting on the floor in the hangar adjacent to this guy's when he de-fuels his plane and there's an explosion.

Whose fault is it?

I say the guy with the electrical appliance sitting on the floor and not five feet above it is just as culpable as the de-fueling guy.

Now if the de-fueling guy was a big enough moron to de-fuel his plane next to his own beer frig sitting on the floor then just take him out back and shoot him.

Regardless...fueling operations should take place outside the hangar on the apron....

But, please, if you have a beer frig, air compressor, or any other electrical appliance in your hangar, then please make sure the "electrical portion" of it is at least 4' above the floor. If it's not then you're as big of a dumb a$$ as the guy refueling his plane inside.
 
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timwinters said:
But, please, if you have a beer frig, air compressor, or any other electrical appliance in your hangar, then please make sure the "electrical portion" of it is at least 4' above the floor. If it's not then you're as big of a dumb a$$ as the guy refueling his plane inside.
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Oops. Color me dumb.
Next project: raise beer/wine/water fridge off floor.
Although honestly, I thought fumes would rise? No?
 
JOhnH said:
Oops. Color me dumb.
Next project: raise beer/wine/water fridge off floor.
Although honestly, I thought fumes would rise? No?
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Nope, natural gas fumes rise.

Propane and gasoline fumes sink.

I believe hangars are considered "medium hazard and that there's a requirement for minimum outlet heights in "medium hazard" locations in the electrical code. They're 48" or so...but I don't have time to look it up right now. All I know is that in every "real" hangar i've ever rented, the outlets were at about the same height as switches.
 
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timwinters said:
Nope, natural gas fumes rise.

Propane and gasoline fumes sink.

I believe hangars are considered "medium hazard and that there's a requirement for minimum outlet heights in "medium hazard" locations in the electrical code. They're 48" or so...but I don't have time to look it up right now. All I know is that in every "real" hangar i've ever rented, the outlets were at about the same height as switches.
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Without looking it up I believe you are right. So if I raise my fridge 4 ft I may need to use my ladder to get to the top shelf.
 
Geico266 said:
Have you tested the sensors in boiling water to make sure they are accurate? Water boils at 212F. This is what your gage should read is a rolling boil.
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Depending on pressure.
At sealevel on a standard day, water boils at 212
at 8000 msl, standard day, water boils at 197
In your car radiator with a 16 psi cap, water boils at about 230 or so.
 
bluerooster said:
Depending on pressure.
At sealevel on a standard day, water boils at 212
at 8000 msl, standard day, water boils at 197
In your car radiator with a 16 psi cap, water boils at about 230 or so.
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I live in Florida and water boils at 212. It has felt like that around here lately when you step away from the air conditioning.
 
flyingron said:
Fuel in vehicle fuel tanks is one thing. Fuel in loose gas cans is another. Fuel in some half assed unapproved for gasoline tank that someone cobbled together is even more fool hardy. If they want to park that thing outside and take the risks that's one thing, it don't belong in hangars that are part of a common structure.
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"That thing" looks like it's made from a semi tractor fuel tank. If so, it's DOT approved, and not what I would consider "half assed."

But, really, what's the difference between a "cobbled together" fuel tank on a trailer and a "cobbled together" fuel tank in an experimental plane? Or between a 5-gallon Blitz can sitting in a hangar and that same 5-gallon Blitz can with a fuel tap in it so that it can be used as the fuel tank on an ultralight? If it doesn't leak, what more do you need?
 
SoloEqs said:
"That thing" looks like it's made from a semi tractor fuel tank. If so, it's DOT approved, and not what I would consider "half assed."

But, really, what's the difference between a "cobbled together" fuel tank on a trailer and a "cobbled together" fuel tank in an experimental plane? Or between a 5-gallon Blitz can sitting in a hangar and that same 5-gallon Blitz can with a fuel tap in it so that it can be used as the fuel tank on an ultralight? If it doesn't leak, what more do you need?
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^^^that^^^

I was going to post something similar but never got a round tuit.
 
timwinters said:
^^^that^^^

I was going to post something similar but never got a round tuit.
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As your mama told you, two wrongs do not make a right. You can't make an argument that something else is SAFE by pointing out other things that are unsafe.

Fuel, other than what is necessarily stored in the tanks within aircraft, has no business being stored in hangars and I will support any airport that I have my plane hangared in who wishes to enforce this. In addition, planes shall neither be fueled nor defueled in hangars.
 
SoloEqs said:
"That thing" looks like it's made from a semi tractor fuel tank. If so, it's DOT approved, and not what I would consider "half assed."
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DOT approved for what? Most semi's use diesel fuel, not gasoline.
But I get your point.
 
flyingron said:
As your mama told you, two wrongs do not make a right. You can't make an argument that something else is SAFE by pointing out other things that are unsafe.

Fuel, other than what is necessarily stored in the tanks within aircraft, has no business being stored in hangars and I will support any airport that I have my plane hangared in who wishes to enforce this. In addition, planes shall neither be fueled nor defueled in hangars.
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You can't make an argument that something is UNsafe when it has been a common practice worldwide for over a century, with only a handful of incidents related to the practice.

Your plane is FAR more likely to burn because of something you do to it than because the guy in the hangar next to you has a fuel trailer.
 
SoloEqs said:
You can't make an argument that something is UNsafe when it has been a common practice worldwide for over a century, with only a handful of incidents related to the practice.
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THere have been more than a handful of incidents. I personally know of three and that's not even trying to search them out.
Your plane is FAR more likely to burn because of something you do to it than because the guy in the hangar next to you has a fuel trailer.
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Unlikely.
 
Tony_Scarpelli said:
you can also get it at any boat Marena as E is not good for boat engines.
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denverpilot said:
Actually it kills fish. Government doesn't give a crap if something is bad for your boat engine.
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Actually it corrodes through aluminum fuel tanks and causes major leaks and explosions, that's why marinas have booze free fuel.
 
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Henning said:
Actually it corrodes through aluminum fuel tanks and causes major leaks and explosions, that's why marinas have booze free fuel.
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Apparently, fiberglass tanks too. I don't get the chemistry behind that one but there's been too much written about it for me to discount it.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
Apparently, fiberglass tanks too. I don't get the chemistry behind that one but there's been too much written about it for me to discount it.
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Yeah, some have been delaminating, I'm guessing the water the ethanol brings is the greater problem than the ethanol itself.:dunno:
 
Henning said:
Yeah, some have been delaminating, I'm guessing the water the ethanol brings is the greater problem than the ethanol itself.:dunno:
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I don't think so. The symptoms don't sound like delamination, but rather like the polymer around the glass dissolving. Boats sit in water and don't delaminate either.
 
Cap'n Jack said:
I don't think so. The symptoms don't sound like delamination, but rather like the polymer around the glass dissolving. Boats sit in water and don't delaminate either.
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:confused: Polymer around the glass dissolving is what causes delamination, and boats sitting in the water delaminates at a fairly steady rate with post 1972 polyester. Water is a universal solvent, eventually it will eat away anything.
 
flyingron said:
THere have been more than a handful of incidents. I personally know of three and that's not even trying to search them out.
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I've been around airplanes since the mid-1960s, and can count on the fingers of one foot the number of incidents I've actually seen with fuel trailers or gas cans in hangars, and that includes reports by people I have known who actually saw it.

There are plenty of brother's-buddy's-second-cousin-on-his-sister's-side reports.

There's a retired fire chief at the airport where I fly now. He has a "cobbled together" fuel trailer parked in his hangar, and has been using it for about 30 years.
 
Henning said:
:confused: Polymer around the glass dissolving is what causes delamination, and boats sitting in the water delaminates at a fairly steady rate with post 1972 polyester. Water is a universal solvent, eventually it will eat away anything.
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If the polymer's dissolving, the damage is done even before the glass comes apart. The delamination is the last step in the process. With the polymer damaged, there's no stiffness.

There's lots more water outside the boat than in a fuel tank, so by your theory, the outside of a boat should be damaged before the tank is damaged by the comparatively small amount of water that may come from the fuel. Water could, in theory, attack the ester bonds to create an acid and an alcohol, but it's a slow process. If the fiberglass was properly laid up and properly cured, it's a bad place for water- non polar. Those boats probably had something wrong to begin with. Some types of polyester resin are stable in seawater at 180 deg F (http://solidsurfacealliance.org/files/ASM_20Handbook_20Vol_2021_Composites_12_polyester_resins.pdf )

I'd buy your water theory if we we discussing metal tanks. The National Marine Manufacturer's Association thinks the unreacted phthalates are being dissolved in the ethanol but don't explain why this causes a problem ( http://www.nmma.org/assets/cabinets/Cabinet103/E20_Position_Paper.doc ). BoatUS has found polyester in gasoline bearing ethanol from glass tanks, and also found the tanks absorbed some of the fuel (not water), suggesting to me the gasoline itself in involved in the tank damage ( http://www.boatus.com/seaworthy/fueltest.asp )
 
flyingron said:
As your mama told you, two wrongs do not make a right. You can't make an argument that something else is SAFE by pointing out other things that are unsafe.

Fuel, other than what is necessarily stored in the tanks within aircraft, has no business being stored in hangars and I will support any airport that I have my plane hangared in who wishes to enforce this. In addition, planes shall neither be fueled nor defueled in hangars.
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Please show objectively what is "safer" about the fuel stored in the wing, assuming any other container is properly vented. (Note: I understand that most DOT gas cans, are not. There are, however tanks with equal or better safety than typical aircraft fuel tanks that can store fuel inside a hangar.)

Fueling, I'm with ya. Do that outside. Mostly so if you set the aircraft on fire it's not close enough to structures to light them off... hopefully. No real guarantees there with as little a distance there is between hangar rows at most airports.
 
wabower said:
As you readily admit, your quest for the cheapest answer to any aviation question has reached near-religious proportions. Some people elect to attend a convenient church that's closer to home rather than drive all over town trying to find one that doesn't pass the plate.
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You need only doing it once, get setup to buy and use mogas and the savings equal enough money to buy a new engine within TBO times.

I forgot most out there are Nelson Rockefellers. For whatever reason mogas is usually about half the cost of avgas in my location and it has been that way for the last 13 years that I have been watching.

Today $3.279 vs $6+ per gallon. So 2.75 at 8 gph of a small 320 engine works out to about $22 per hour saved. 100 hrs a year works out to $2200.
 
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Frank said:
Are any of you worried about the plight of the FBOs who will have to find a way to make up the lost fuel revenue or go out of business? If they charge you more for other stuff, what good did it do? If the airport closes, then you really screwed yourself.
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NOT AT ALL, NOT EVEN A LITTLE BIT.
 
~~~ you need to check se of your other facts.

Nate, I never said Mogas is universally good for everyone I said they should check it out. The facts that I presented are 100% accurate for me, my situation here in Wichita. Including being able to buy fuel wholesale from a jobber or pick it up on the way to the airport without going 100' out of my way.

I guess it sucks to be you.
 
JOhnH said:
Where and how do you buy your unleaded, non-ethanol gas? Do you have a self-service pump somewhere or do you have to have it pumped by someone else? Is there a problem using an unapproved (I assume) gas tank?

If a new carb fixes my CHT problem, THEN I might consider running mogas, if I can find it. But time is money so if it is going to take time away from work or flying or other valuable hobbies, it might not be worth it. I already waste way to much time on POA.
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We have 92 Octane mogas with no ethonal available locally.

It is an approved diesel tank. :dunno: ;)

I've saved over $12,000 burning mogas. I can afford a $100 ticket. ;)

Cobbled togeather? :mad: That baby was built using the finest materials and craftsmanship. It's 15 years old! I do an annual ever year when I replace the hoses and filters. World class refueling rig!

;)
 
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100ll at the airport: $4.99
93 octane non-E at a station 12 miles out of my way: $4.93
93 octane non-e at a station 23 miles out of my way: $4.63

36Cents/gallon savings; 1,000 gallons per year =$360/year
It will only take me 100 years to save enough for that engine rebuild, I I don't include the time and equipment necessary. And that is if I drive to the 46 miles round trip every time I fill up at home.



Tony_Scarpelli said:
You need only doing it once, get setup to buy and use mogas and the savings equal enough money to buy a new engine within TBO times.

I forgot most out there are Nelson Rockefellers. For whatever reason mogas is usually about half the cost of avgas in my location and it has been that way for the last 13 years that I have been watching.

Today $3.279 vs $6+ per gallon. So 2.75 at 8 gph of a small 320 engine works out to about $22 per hour saved. 100 hrs a year works out to $2200.
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So, the math doesn't work for you, condolences. But for many of us it does, and our engines are happier for it.

100LL at my field = $5.25
MoGas at my field = $4.25
No ethanol, 93 octane on the street, at a station I drive by at least once a week anyway = $3.79
 
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