More on the great controller shortage

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Shepherd said:
And yet they laid of hundreds of Controllers 3-4 years ago to hire contract Controllers.

Your government at work.
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If you're referring to the FAA contract tower program no controllers were laid off. They were transferred to busier facilities at higher pay rates, even if an overstaffed situation resulted. Some of them checked out without a problem and became good controllers. Some of them had problems working heavier traffic but were checked out anyway.
 
Velocity173 said:
Yes, the Army has tactical ATC capability as well. My point was the comparison of the FAA to Marine ATC that Steven was asking. The FAA isn't going to be living in a tent in the middle of nowhere conducting ATC ops. That's what I was getting at with the primary difference between Marines vs FAA.

The .65 is a given. For the most part you operate the same. That's just the act of doing ATC. The lifestyle of doing ATC that I experienced in the Marines can't be compared to by anything in the FAA. I mean I worked at the same radar room from The Great Santani. That alone blows anything in the civilian world out of the water!:D
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So, you misspoke when you said working ATC in the FAA today and your work as a Marine controller twenty years ago are two completely different things. You were speaking only of living conditions, not the job.
 
roncachamp said:
So, you misspoke when you said working ATC in the FAA today and your work as a Marine controller twenty years ago are two completely different things. You were speaking only of living conditions, not the job.
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No, you just misunderstood what I was referring to. Why you would equate job satifaction with procedures (.65) is beyond me. It's obvious PG knew what I was referring to. If you want to talk regs and procedures there are still differences in how each branch operates compared to the FAA. Navy / Marines have specific policies in the NATOPS Air Traffic Control Manual. But, like I said, the satisfaction I had doing ATC in the Marines had nothing to do with policy or procedure.

It's not just living conditions either. It's about the camaraderie about being a Marine controller and everything that goes with being a Marine. If you were to ask any of my friends what were the greatest moments in their lives outside of family, they'd say the times spent in the Marines. I'd say that goes for most who have served in other branches as well. For me personally, I enjoyed being part of military aviation history. You walk into your facility and say this is Miramar, it's frigging Top Gun. Or the reference to The Great Santini above. It's being apart of military history. If you haven't served or aren't into military aviation history, I wouldn't expect you to relate. Nothing wrong with not serving and preferring civil aviation history either. I speak from my preferences.

I also brought up the technological differences in aircraft today vs 20 + yrs ago. The aircraft I fly for work (B407) is a perfect example. I have HTAWS, SVT, TCAD, and XM weather. When it first came off the line it had none of that. Maybe a GPS. So, with this technology, when ATC provides a vector for navigation assistance, I don't need it because I have a moving map. When ATC provides a traffic advisory, the majority of the time I already see it through TCAD. When ATC provides information on thunderstorms, the majority of the time (with a delay) I already see it. I don't need ATC to get me a METAR from the FDIO for my destination because I already have it on the 530. I'll never require a low altitude alert because HTAWS / SVT will show it long before ATC does. When I worked approach I provided those services. Services that are quickly becoming extinct. Just me here but I enjoyed providing something that the aircraft didn't have or were unaware of.

Like I said, I can't expect you to relate and nothing I say will give you a true picture of the difference in experiences between the two. I have a unique insight because both my Dad (retired) and brother are FAA. My brother has told me several times that he can't wait to retire and that he enjoyed his time in the AF more. He still enjoys ATC but how the FAA operates, kinda ruined it for him. YMMV.
 
Velocity173 said:
No, you just misunderstood what I was referring to. Why you would equate job satifaction with procedures (.65) is beyond me. It's obvious PG knew what I was referring to. If you want to talk regs and procedures there are still differences in how each branch operates compared to the FAA. Navy / Marines have specific policies in the NATOPS Air Traffic Control Manual. But, like I said, the satisfaction I had doing ATC in the Marines had nothing to do with policy or procedure.
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Right. It was my misunderstanding. You were not comparing working ATC in the FAA to your experience as a Marine controller when you wrote this:

Velocity173 said:
No, working ATC in the FAA today, to me, wouldn't be nearly as satisfying as my experience as a Marine controller 20 yrs ago. Two completely different things.
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roncachamp said:
Right. It was my misunderstanding. You were not comparing working ATC in the FAA to your experience as a Marine controller when you wrote this:
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And if you don't write things exactly the way Steven thinks you should, shame on you! :rofl:
 
roncachamp said:
What "cooler call signs" would be used by military ATC but not FAA?
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Okay the controllers get to use them too sometimes. "Giant Killer" in SoCal airspace in the late 80's comes to mind. But none of us lowly GA types would ever be up on that frequency. :)
 
denverpilot said:
Okay the controllers get to use them too sometimes. "Giant Killer" in SoCal airspace in the late 80's comes to mind. But none of us lowly GA types would ever be up on that frequency. :)
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Giant Killer is East Coast range control.

In SoCal, the call sign is Beaver.
 
denverpilot said:
Okay the controllers get to use them too sometimes. "Giant Killer" in SoCal airspace in the late 80's comes to mind. But none of us lowly GA types would ever be up on that frequency. :)
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"Giant Killer" may have been in SoCal in the late 80s but they're an east coast FACSFAC now. "Beaver" handles off shore stuff in SoCal now out of NAS North Island. All Navy controllers. Not that they do much controlling though.

Always liked "Sea Lord" call sign...even though they screwed up and violated my airspace on a regular basis.

Edit: is there an echo in here. Lol! What Fearless said above.
 
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Velocity173 said:
"Giant Killer" may have been in SoCal in the late 80s but they're an east coast FACSFAC now. "Beaver" handles off shore stuff in SoCal now out of NAS North Island. All Navy controllers. Not that they do much controlling though.



Always liked "Sea Lord" call sign...even though they screwed up and violated my airspace on a regular basis.



Edit: is there an echo in here. Lol! What Fearless said above.
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Yeah. Must have moved then. A friend was with them when they were in SoCal. He's got some fun recordings he probably shouldn't have. Haha.
 
nauga said:
ROUGH RIDER
LONE WARRIOR
GOLD EAGLE

To name a few ;)

Nauga,
direct USS Boat
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I worked with the first two, but drawing a blank on the third.

Speaking of military call signs, my screen name was my call sign when I worked helos. Short for FEARLESS WARRIOR Tower.
 
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nauga said:
Vinson.

Nauga,
from the way back
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Ah, makes sense. All the CVNs I ever worked with were east coast ships.

When I was on the west coast, I was a CHENG....wasn't talking to too many people over the radio for that tour!
 
roncachamp said:
If you're referring to the FAA contract tower program no controllers were laid off. They were transferred to busier facilities at higher pay rates, even if an overstaffed situation resulted. Some of them checked out without a problem and became good controllers. Some of them had problems working heavier traffic but were checked out anyway.
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I beg to differ on this. I'm sitting across from a guy right now who was an Air Force controller for 10 years, became a government controller for 10 years, and then was laid off 4 years ago. Everyone in the tower he worked in was replaced by civilian contractors. He was able to keep a job by "working" his Air Force connections. He ended up in a "hell hole" (his words) that no one else would touch. For less money.
 
Shepherd said:
I beg to differ on this. I'm sitting across from a guy right now who was an Air Force controller for 10 years, became a government controller for 10 years, and then was laid off 4 years ago. Everyone in the tower he worked in was replaced by civilian contractors. He was able to keep a job by "working" his Air Force connections. He ended up in a "hell hole" (his words) that no one else would touch. For less money.
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And that thought process has led the U.S to go broke too... The same with the big three auto makers.... Decades ago they didn't make the same salary as the private sector, worked for less with the trade off of lifetime jobs and a good retirement benefit package.

Then the unions were VERY effective in bargaining for high pay, better benefits and wonderful pension plans with Cadillac medical insurance coverage.. With that evolution came overwhelming commitments the taxpayers will go broke fulfilling.. And the public sector making higher salaries then the private sector... Simple paper pushers in DC are pulling in almost 6 figures, and there is hundreds of thousands of them.. Louis Lerner, a mid level IRS worker was making 190,000 till she took early retirement....
And now 142 million is being paid out to the VA workers in year end bonuses for their "Outstanding" job performance, while veterans are dying waiting for promised medical coverage.. All the military people posting in this thread should be downright PIZZED...:mad:

Now, along comes downsizing, people get laid off because of economic factors and guv employees pull the rabbit out of the hat to stay employed by "WORKING THE AIR FORCE CONNECTION"... The entire system is caving in under it's own weight with the tax payers shouldering the burden.. Ever with large private sector industries getting bailed out by the guvmint because their unions are in bed with the crooks in Washington..

I have several neighbors who lost millions when GM cratered, their stocks /bonds turned into worthless paper they could only use to light the wood stove with... And the 50 BILLION GM got from the feds went straight to prop up the union pension program and NONE to help out investors...:mad2::mad2::mad2:..

And it ain't gettin any better..:sad:

God help the good ol U.S.A..:redface:
 
Shepherd said:
I beg to differ on this. I'm sitting across from a guy right now who was an Air Force controller for 10 years, became a government controller for 10 years, and then was laid off 4 years ago. Everyone in the tower he worked in was replaced by civilian contractors. He was able to keep a job by "working" his Air Force connections. He ended up in a "hell hole" (his words) that no one else would touch. For less money.
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Then you weren't referring to the FAA contract tower program.
 
Fearless Tower said:
http://money.cnn.com/2015/10/14/news/economy/air-traffic-controllers/index.html

I have a funny feeling that if they would lighten up on the max age requirement, they might just get more applicants....
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Apparantly the FAA is exempt from Age Discrimination and Employment Act because oof Bona Fide Occupational Qualifications based on this study here - http://libraryonline.erau.edu/online-full-text/faa-aviation-medicine-reports/AM71-36.pdf

I don't like the age standards because I like to believe that someone with former atc or pilot experience might fare better than the selected test group from 1971 ! With the advances in medicine and technology I'd say a 35 - 40 year old of this day and age might be a wee bit better adaptable then in 1971 but maybe that's just wishful thinking :dunno: :)
 
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jaybee said:
I don't like the age standards because I like to believe that someone with former atc or pilot experience might fare better than the selected test group from 1971 ! With the advances in medicine and technology I'd say a 35 - 40 year old of this day and age might be a wee bit better adaptable then in 1971 but maybe that's just wishful thinking :dunno: :)
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Yeah I was 38-39 when I retired from USAF ATC and only eligible for FSS. FAA didn't mind the military controllers working after Ronnie fired all the controllers in '81 though! :confused:
 
mscard88 said:
Yeah I was 38-39 when I retired from USAF ATC and only eligible for FSS. FAA didn't mind the military controllers working after Ronnie fired all the controllers in '81 though! :confused:
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The FAA today doesn't mind its controllers working after the age of 56 as long as they were hired before May 1971.
 
What ever happened to that Phoenix 2000 program? Could retire after the military and the max hiring age was waived. :dunno:

Edit: Found it. PC 20 became the Retired Military Controller (RMC) program. 5 yr terms that can be renewed up to the mandatory 56 retirement age. Sounds like only a couple hundred have been picked up in its 15 yr existence.
 
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mscard88 said:
Yeah I was 38-39 when I retired from USAF ATC and only eligible for FSS. FAA didn't mind the military controllers working after Ronnie fired all the controllers in '81 though! :confused:
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that's just dumb IMHO you were a qualified USAF ATC controller and not eligible for hire at the FAA :confused: :mad2:

this is the stupid stuff the government does that annoys the crap out of me.

if anything you should have been fast tracked to a level of equal responsibility that you had in the USAF :yikes: wow what a concept i know :lol:
 
jaybee;1944956[B said:
]that's just dumb IMHO you were a qualified USAF ATC controller and not eligible for hire at the FAA :confused: :mad2:
[/B]
this is the stupid stuff the government does that annoys the crap out of me.

if anything you should have been fast tracked to a level of equal responsibility that you had in the USAF :yikes: wow what a concept i know :lol:
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I suspect the union had just a little bit to do with that clause...:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 
jaybee said:
that's just dumb IMHO you were a qualified USAF ATC controller and not eligible for hire at the FAA :confused: :mad2:

this is the stupid stuff the government does that annoys the crap out of me.

if anything you should have been fast tracked to a level of equal responsibility that you had in the USAF :yikes: wow what a concept i know :lol:
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The rule was changed in 2000 with the Phoenix 20, now Retired Military Controller program. You can retire out of ATC in the military today and go into the FAA with 5 yr renewable terms up to the age of 56.
 
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