More brain-dead guvmint idiocy

azure

azure

Final Approach
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azure
I filed IFR coming back from 3DA yesterday, just for the fun of it. Once I was handed off to DTW Approach and told to expect the visual at Troy, I asked for the RNAV 9. The controller came back with "unable, that approach is NA at night". Well yes, I knew that. In fact, we've been fighting for 4 months to get that restriction lifted. The only thing was, the sun was out and shining. I asked the controller how that chart note could apply when it wasn't even night yet. He said "I can't run that approach at night. Legal sunset was a half hour ago." Umm, okay, I'll take the visual... :loco: (I didn't feel like canceling just to do the approach)

So after I landed I called up the Tracon and asked 1) what time they have for legal sunset and 2) what definition of night applies here. 2) was easy: a half hour after sunset to a half hour before sunrise. But the answer to 1) was 19:33 local time. (Even so they should have cleared me since it was 19:45 when I asked for the approach. Maybe he figured it would take me more than 18 minutes to complete the approach from where I was.)

But the kicker was: official sunset was actually at 20:33 local time. Apparently the FAA issues the charts to controllers in local standard time instead of Zulu :)dunno:), and they're not authorized to adjust for DST. Or at least, they think they aren't.

So at Troy, if you want to fly the RNAV 9 at night IFR, you can ask for it 1.5 hours before sunrise and they'll authorize it. Absolutely brain dead.
 
Liz, write the tracon and point out the date, time and give your N number. Point out that they are using tables that do not compensate for EDT. Ask it it could be presented as part of Tuesday "tower talk" (every tracon's got one).

This can turn out very positively.
 
I'd leave "govmint" out of any written correspondence you have with them.

This sounds like an easy fix.
 
Excuse me? Where do you arrive at the "hour after sunset to hour before sunrise?"
The ONLY place that wording appears is in the recent experience requirement for carrying passengers. The rule that would appear to apply here is the 1.1 definition: "the time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the Air Almanac, converted to local time."

Note the explicit conversion required.

It's a subject near and dear to my heart as I submitted the petition for rulemaking that fixed the definition a couple of years ago. Oddly the PC/G still has the errant definition of the term.
 
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Ron: please reread my post, more carefully this time. It says HALF-hour after to HALF-hour before. That wording doesn't appear anywhere in the FARs, but is probably someone's lazy approximation to the time where the sun is 6* below the horizon (definition of civil twilight). Totally unnecessary I know, the actual times are published, but I'm not going to raise a stink about it.

Bruce: I probably put too negative a slant on my post. I did point this out verbally when I called, and I was speaking to a supervisor not one of the rank and file. He did say that he would "ask for clarification" so there is a chance that the mistake will be corrected, or it will turn out that they actually do have the authority to use common sense. I will try again in a month or so, and if they're still off by an hour, then I'll sit down and write that letter. Thanks for the suggestion.

Captain: Ya think? Really? :rolleyes:

(For the sarcasm impaired, that translates roughly to "no ****, Sherlock".)
 
azure said:
So after I landed I called up the Tracon and asked 1) what time they have for legal sunset and 2) what definition of night applies here. 2) was easy: a half hour after sunset to a half hour before sunrise. But the answer to 1) was 19:33 local time. (Even so they should have cleared me since it was 19:45 when I asked for the approach. Maybe he figured it would take me more than 18 minutes to complete the approach from where I was.)
Click to expand...

I'd like to know why he chose that definition. Order JO 7110.65 includes the P/CG, where NIGHT is defined as "The time between the end of evening civil twilight and the beginning of morning civil twilight, as published in the American Air Almanac, converted to local time." The only other definition of night, and it's a rather loose one, is in the operation of airport lighting; "Night−Sunset to sunrise".
 
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You could always call them and ask, it was the Detroit TRACON. As I said, I assumed it was an approximation to civil twilight, and I didn't care enough to press the point. I did expect that the answer would be sunset to sunrise, since as you say that is the one that applies to airport lighting.
 
azure said:
You could always call them and ask, it was the Detroit TRACON. As I said, I assumed it was an approximation to civil twilight, and I didn't care enough to press the point. I did expect that the answer would be sunset to sunrise, since as you say that is the one that applies to airport lighting.
Click to expand...

While his time of sunset was wrong I'm sure the controller was giving you an approximation of EECT and not an actual. His approximation was only one minute off anyway.
 
azure said:
I filed IFR coming back from 3DA yesterday, just for the fun of it. Once I was handed off to DTW Approach and told to expect the visual at Troy, I asked for the RNAV 9. The controller came back with "unable, that approach is NA at night". Well yes, I knew that. In fact, we've been fighting for 4 months to get that restriction lifted. The only thing was, the sun was out and shining. I asked the controller how that chart note could apply when it wasn't even night yet. He said "I can't run that approach at night. Legal sunset was a half hour ago." Umm, okay, I'll take the visual... :loco: (I didn't feel like canceling just to do the approach)

So after I landed I called up the Tracon and asked 1) what time they have for legal sunset and 2) what definition of night applies here. 2) was easy: a half hour after sunset to a half hour before sunrise. But the answer to 1) was 19:33 local time. (Even so they should have cleared me since it was 19:45 when I asked for the approach. Maybe he figured it would take me more than 18 minutes to complete the approach from where I was.)

But the kicker was: official sunset was actually at 20:33 local time. Apparently the FAA issues the charts to controllers in local standard time instead of Zulu :)dunno:), and they're not authorized to adjust for DST. Or at least, they think they aren't.

So at Troy, if you want to fly the RNAV 9 at night IFR, you can ask for it 1.5 hours before sunrise and they'll authorize it. Absolutely brain dead.
Click to expand...

When it's night should be able to be worked out with the facility chief.

As to getting the night restriction removed, that might be impossible. Seeing those 4 degree VGSIs tells me there are some significant penetrations. If the visual segment 20:1 is penetrated the only way you will get the night restriction removed is to get the penetrations mitigated.
 
azure said:
Captain: Ya think? Really? :rolleyes:

(For the sarcasm impaired, that translates roughly to "no ****, Sherlock".)
Click to expand...
I suspect you weren't planning on calling them idiots either.;)
 
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