Morality

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"We make men without chests and expect of them virtue and enterprise. We laugh at honour and are shocked to find traitors in our midst. We castrate and bid the geldings be fruitful." - C.S. Lewis
 
Fear vs empathy

I don't believe anyone who tells me they know what happens after you die. But I do believe that people can be negatively or positively impacted by my actions.

I'm not sure if it's more difficult to teach a child morality by making them fear some kind of eternal retribution, or by making them understand other people's feelings. But I raise my kid to understand the latter.
I don't think fear is a good motivator for belief, in kids or otherwise. In fact, just the opposite. Logic and reasoning are far more attractive to anyone who can use them. If something doesn't make sense, figure out why and find something else that does.
 
I don't think fear is a good motivator for belief, in kids or otherwise. In fact, just the opposite. Logic and reasoning are far more attractive to anyone who can use them. If something doesn't make sense, figure out why and find something else that does.
Fear isn't a good motivator for belief in kids? Explain Santa Clause. How many kids change their behavior every December because they believe in Santa clause and are fearful he won't come? How many kids believed they had to be well mannered in school because they feared being sent to the pr8ncipals office? Fear is very much a motivational factor in shaping kids and adults beliefs and behaviors.
 
Who gets to decide what is moral and what isn’t. If there isn’t universal agreement on what is moral then how do you test to see if people are more or less moral than in the past.
So you’re in the “morality doesn’t exist” camp?
 
So you’re in the “morality doesn’t exist” camp?
"Si Dieu n'existait pas, il faudrait l'inventer."

(If God did not exist, it would be necessary to invent him.)

-François-Marie Arouet

In 'Metaphysics', Voltaire made an Aristotelian case for a God outside of morality. That morality is relative to human interests and concerns. That atheism is as harmful as superstition, and that “anyone who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities”.
 
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I don't hang out with a lot of kids but I do have two teens and here's what I figured out.

Skibity toilet is the rizz and that's no cap.
You have to lock in and hold time. If you wanna glow up, pop off, and be fire.

I suspect they have a thorough grasp on pretty much everything we do we just don't understand them.
 
Fear isn't a good motivator for belief in kids? Explain Santa Clause. How many kids change their behavior every December because they believe in Santa clause and are fearful he won't come? How many kids believed they had to be well mannered in school because they feared being sent to the pr8ncipals office? Fear is very much a motivational factor in shaping kids and adults beliefs and behaviors.
I didn't say it wasn't a motivator, just not maybe the best one as a person matures. Carrot and stick, etc. Personally I prefer the carrot.
 
“Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!”
The Inquisition (Let's begin!)
The Inquisition (Look out, sin!)
We have a mission
To convert the Jews (Jew-jew-jew-jew-jew-jew-jews)

Confess!
Don't be boring!
Say yes!
Don't be dull!

A fact
You're ignoring;
It's better to lose your skullcap
Than your skull!

{JEWS}
Oye gevalt!

Thank you, Mel Brooks!
 
So you’re in the “morality doesn’t exist” camp?
No. I just believe that different people can and do have different morals and there's nothing wrong with that. There is no one authority on what is or isn't moral in this world.
 
No. I just believe that different people can and do have different morals and there's nothing wrong with that. There is no one authority on what is or isn't moral in this world.
So morality is simply an undefinable term.
 
De Sade argues that traditional moral principles, such as the concepts of good and evil, are meaningless. In his view, moral judgments are arbitrary, and there is no inherent value in conventional ethical distinctions. Instead, life is about pursuing personal pleasure and power, regardless of societal approval or disapproval.
In many ways I agree with him. This comes from someone who still stands up when an older person enters the room, and in general follows many antiquated practices that can only be found in books on behavioral ethics. Why? I was raised like that. De Sade would call me oppressed .
 
So as you might guess by my username, I probably have some opinions on this matter. I'll generalize my thoughts in this way.
If there is no absolute standard - no unchanging measure of good and evil, right and wrong - then this is the expected outcome. 250 years ago, the majority of Americans (called colonists at the time) believed in the Bible as that standard. Much of our legal system is/was based on this.

I wholeheartedly support the First Amendment, and your right to believe as you choose, but I feel that the removal of that absolute standard lends itself to moral right and wrong becoming subjective rather than objective. Then it turns into, "I'm not as bad as ________." I hear/see this all the time from felons. The insurance fraudster says, "I'm not as bad as the murderer." The murderer says, "I'm not as bad as the rapist." The rapist says, "I'm not as bad as ... " You get the idea. The concept of right and wrong is set by the individual rather than by an objective measure.
 
De Sade argues that traditional moral principles, such as the concepts of good and evil, are meaningless. In his view, moral judgments are arbitrary, and there is no inherent value in conventional ethical distinctions. Instead, life is about pursuing personal pleasure and power, regardless of societal approval or disapproval.
In many ways I agree with him. This comes from someone who still stands up when an older person enters the room, and in general follows many antiquated practices that can only be found in books on behavioral ethics. Why? I was raised like that. De Sade would call me oppressed .
From the sound of it, De Sade was all about self. Self gratification, to the exclusion of everything else. In a tribe or in a nation things seem to go a lot better if people look out for each other. My brother‘s keeper, as it were. The New Testament I believe is the best foundation for ethical behavior in existence. Golden Rule is hard to argue with.
 
Certainly there is good & evil. Many of you can name something that is horribly evil and likewise something that is wonderfully good. It is also known that children must be raised to resist doing bad (evil) things. Consider ... who ever taught a child how to lie? Yet they do it. Ever teach a child to steal or to curse? Probably not but they do it as it is part of human nature to do what can be gotten away with. A very simple example is folks that always drive at a speed over the limit at which they believe they will not be stopped.

Knowing this then there must be a moral law to teach us what is good & what is evil. If there then is a moral law, then without any contradiction there must be a moral law giver. Many want to be their own lawgiver and decide for themselves what is right and wrong but that doesn't wash with the rights and opinions of others. There must be a standard and there is. But lest I get banned or get this thread locked I digress ...
 
There was a post earlier in the thread that operated on the assumption that humans are basically good. I'd beg to differ. If you're a parent, you know that you don't have to teach a kid to think that they are the center of the universe, to lie, to do all number of things.

As a man who's writings I appreciate wrote this a while back:
Everything about the Constitution shouts at us — “never trust an American politician.” The safeguards in the Bill of Rights were included as a firewall...
Source: DougWils Blog

These United States' Constitution and Bill of Rights - deeply flawed though I believe them to be - were correct in assuming that a system of checks and balances was needed to pit the self-interests of each branch against the tendencies towards evil of all mankind. We all break the commandments from our youth. People are flawed and morality is needed to keep the guardrails on.

Here's the early American dictionary entry for the word "Morality": https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/Morality

It's very, very hard to keep this discussion in the ROC... without drifting, no, stalling and spinning right into the forbidden, but that difficulty itself is a symptom of this very problem.
 
Go ahead and get it locked. Your if/then is arbitrary and incorrect.
 
Arbitrary is a supremely ironic word to use to argue against an absolute moral standard...
As a secular humanist, I posit that morality is what is good for society as a whole for the long term, including instilling values in the next generation that lead them to that end. That too is arbitrary, hence your assessment is correct. I fail to find the vocabulary to properly express my thoughts.
 
I still have no need to be forced to accept someone else's belief that their imaginary friend is the root of morality, and I also believe that you either said something or you didn't say it, so saying it and then announcing that you have stopped there to avoid consequences is asking to have it both ways.
 
I still have no need to be forced to accept someone else's belief that their imaginary friend is the root of morality, and I also believe that you either said something or you didn't say it, so saying it and then announcing that you have stopped there to avoid consequences is asking to have it both ways.
I don't think a serious person would want to force you to believe in it - but to attempt to persuade you, or others? That is a different thing.
There's quite a gap between attempting to engage in persuasive dialogue, and the use of force.
 
I don't think a serious person would want to force you to believe in it - but to attempt to persuade you, or others? That is a different thing.
There's quite a gap between attempting to engage in persuasive dialogue, and the use of force.
Fair enough.
 
I don't think a serious person would want to force you to believe in it - but to attempt to persuade you, or others? That is a different thing.
There's quite a gap between attempting to engage in persuasive dialogue, and the use of force.

I certainly agree. I usually observe to see whether someone is seeking an answer or an argument and whether they hold opinions or convictions. I cannot change anyone's mind and don't intend to try. It's simply enough to present food for thought ...
 
Well, I see where this one is heading, so I'll go ahead and push it along. Both of the major faiths of the world are REAL big on proselytization. And, it's been my experience, being around both of those faiths quite a lot that giving 'no' for an answer just makes them more fanatical. There might be examples here of the 'hey, no problem', but in the rest of the world it boils down to convert - or die and has been going on for centuries. I don't need to give examples. The learned among us know plenty already.

It rare to see or hear an atheist banging the gong of anti-theism. Sure, once in a while some goober gets upset over an xmas display on school grounds, but that's where the law steps in and makes a decision, and the atheists' go back to drawing pentagrams on sidewalks. We can more or less ignore them as a minority who need to make a stink now and then.

I see that it's currently still de rigueur to express the notion of subjective morality. I think, and I like being the outlier that morality is very objective. A 5YO whacks his 3YO sister and that is morally wrong. It's morally wrong to the atheist(presumed), it's wrong to the muslim, it's wrong to the christians, and sikhs and jews, and so on and so forth. This moral relativism as the humanity advances beyond absolutes is part of what the OP complains about, with good reason.

Being an engineer(and philsopher), I probably see more black and white than shades of gray, but anyone not seeing and doing something about a 5YO kid bashing on a 3YO has a serious problem, to the point of being a psychopath, or one with zero moral compass. This from the disassociative branch of moral relativism. It might be popular now, but the basic rules of civilization apply. I tend to argue the morality of efficiency in a cultural society. Beating up someone younger than you is not going to advance the society if it's allowed to continue into the fabric of that society. It is destructive, not constructive, and breeding a culture that relies on the strong arm for advancement is doomed to be killing off or restricting the boldest, and brightest who might advance the culture but are kept down by a system of oligarchy, that is usually not benevolent.

An efficient society advances through community effort as much as through individualism. However, it's a balance where the individual cannot fully succumb to the will and pressure of the community, due particularly to the application of immoral behavior. Here - I will provide an example. The power of the Catholic hegemony recently has crashed from a relatively high status. It has lost legions of followers, billions of dollars, and seen it's trust erode to horrible levels. And, I can point to the immorality of those in the church and those within their community who failed to root out the immorality, and thus sacrificed efficiency of operation, leading to the decline.

Moral relativism is fun to consider, and a subject for advance knowledge to bandy about in the quad, or on talk shows, or around the water cooler. Living it, for any length of time will begin to cause problems. Ask the Romans, they did all the wrong things when christianity began to spread in the population, and attempted to use the faith as a power base, rather than let it console and support the state. It went badly after several hundred years. Lastly, I have some more blame to pile on with the concept of forgiveness, and how it's been expanded in current theological practice. Sin on Saturday, forgive on Sunday and go back to work on Monday with a clear conscience. I'm not down with that, sorry but I think it requires more than a few hail Mary's and a donation to the plate to absolve someone of immoral actions. Which is why I don't belong to any sect that believes in spirits, ghosts, and/or higher beings. I guess I"m headed the wrong way when I go.
 
It's very, very hard to keep this discussion in the ROC... without drifting, no, stalling and spinning right into the forbidden, but that difficulty itself is a symptom of this very problem.

It's good practice in keeping civil discourse. May be hard, but worth doing, and so far I think we've done well.
 
Lastly, I have some more blame to pile on with the concept of forgiveness, and how it's been expanded in current theological practice. Sin on Saturday, forgive on Sunday and go back to work on Monday with a clear conscience. I'm not down with that, sorry but I think it requires more than a few hail Mary's and a donation to the plate to absolve someone of immoral actions.

I regularly attend church and am a believer, and do believe Jesus died on the cross for the sins of man, but I also grapple greatly with this concept. To what degree are our sins really washed away?

Steal some sugar packets from the restaurant, your’re probably good. Cheat on your wife? Probably good as well although I think it’s a horrible thing to do. But rape, murder? I cannot think God will be good with that just because you profess to love Jesus.

I believe that Jesus can’t be used as a get out of jail free card.

PS: I’ll see you all after my vacation ;-)
 
When it comes to morality the only thing of which I'm positively certain is that delegating responsibility for your beliefs and your actions to any "higher authority" is among the most profoundly immoral things you can do.
It is tantamount to turning off your God given rational perception and moral compass in exchange for a false absolution, which was never anyone's to give. If you want to be a good person you need to be your own harshest judge and the most meticulous accountant of your own moral balance. To forego that responsibility is a fundamental betrayal of ones self that, if not the root of all evil, is at least the seed that grows the roots of the worst evils.

The worst wars and atrocities, whether committed by religions, countries, gangs or any other collectives -- have always involved that fundamental ingredient of people abdicating their own self-judgment in exchange for the warm blanket of belonging. Most of them left to their own devices they would never partake in such action, but put them in a group and teach them to accept that a higher authority sanctions this, and you turn a group of people into monsters.

Have a nice Monday! :)
 
...Steal some sugar packets from the restaurant, your’re probably good. Cheat on your wife? Probably good as well although I think it’s a horrible thing to do. But rape, murder? I cannot think God will be good with that just because you profess to love Jesus....

repeatedly make fun of someone's paint job? unforgivable!!! straight to hell.
 
Sin on Saturday, forgive on Sunday and go back to work on Monday with a clear conscience. I'm not down with that, sorry but I think it requires more than a few hail Mary's and a donation to the plate to absolve someone of immoral actions.

IIRC, John 3:16 says nothing about Hail Marys or dollars in a collection plate. It’s rather simple, really.

“Sin on Saturday, forgive on Sunday” isn’t indicative of sincere belief, now, is it?
 
Not to mention flying a high wing.....

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We AGAIN need compulsory military service, 2 years. It needs be part of our common experience.
I agree with you in theory but the military today would need a radical makeover for it to happen. Back in the day when you had a troublemaker or persistent non-conformist you had places to send them, groundskeeping, needle gunning and painting and you had NCO's that could ensure they stayed in line. Much of that has been outsourced to contractors (at my last duty station grounds maintenance was a company that provided jobs for the mentally disabled).

"Society" has other priorities. We have about 1.2 million active duty in the military today. In 1970 3.5 million. The BRAC Process closed over 350 DoD facilities. No one wants to pay for that these days.

It's also a very different military than it was. Sure, we still need folks to carry a rifle but today's military is much better trained than the bulk what we had in 1970. To get that training we've had to up the education standards (for the most part). Then you have the whole issue that the majority of teens today can't even pass a basic physical fitness test.

So while we agree, it's not the solution to setting a baseline of expected civil or moral norms. Although I'm sure some time with my AOCS Drill Instructor GYSGT Bowling USMC would fix a few!
 
One day I was talking to a Rabbi... happened on a train from Philadelphia to NYC... when I told him was raised Catholic, he mused..."Ahh yes, the other guilt trip..." Interesting person and a great conversationalist. He imparted this little tidbit on me: "In life there are four kinds of people, those with both morals and scruples, those with scruples and no morals, or morals and no scruples, then those that have neither... seldom will you find the first mentioned, and there too many of the last.."
 
There is no "removal". Theism is not required for the establishment of objective morality. Of course the tax advantaged would argue otherwise.....

Please explain how one can derive Moral truth from physics, chemistry, or mathematics.
 
Then you have the whole issue that the majority of teens today can't even pass a basic physical fitness test.

Or psych eval. I know that is part of the same issue with police recruitment as well, beyond the current political environment regarding law enforcement. Working along side our police chief, he has told me they can get 75 applicants, half can't pass a physical fitness test, half of the remainder have psych issues from either illegal drug use or prescription drugs they have been on since adolescence. Out of 75 applicants, they are lucky to get 10 that are hirable, and half of those won't make it through academy.
 
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