Mooney?

[MooneyDriver78]

It's not the softer part, it's the driving it on part, the faster you land, the lower your angle of attack. If you are flying into gusty winds and the gust dies out on you at an inopportune point in the settling, the nose drops, you get a bounce, and the typical result in a Mooney is a prop strike.

I was taught that if its gusty you should add a gust factor, +gust/2, so if its 10 gusting to 18, you would add 4 to your landing speed, the idea is that the faster speed prevents the drops. If you are close to stall speed, if the gust stops, you will stall the plane.

 

[Henning]

I was taught that if its gusty you should add a gust factor, +gust/2, so if its 10 gusting to 18, you would add 4 to your landing speed, the idea is that the faster speed prevents the drops.

Eventually though, especially in a Mooney, you have to get slow to touch down or you float, if you aren't in the correct attitude, when your plane sinks, you will have what is technically known as 'a bad day'.

 

[Jimmy cooper]

I guess it's that darn ego again but......I land a mooney pretty much like a tail dragger. Nose high, 65 mph,let it quit flying, ease the nose wheel on. Prop is close to the ground but I used to fly into a grass strip in NYS , 2300 feet, same technique, no problem. You would really have to screw up the landing to have a prop strike.

 

[RevDMV]

I'm fairly low time, the local fbo had a J model for awhile. Really great plane to fly.

As already stated, get the airspeed to near 65 and it's no big deal to get on the ground. I found it easier to deal with than the 182.

Wish it had stuck around I'd still fly it.

 

[Henning]

I guess it's that darn ego again but......I land a mooney pretty much like a tail dragger. Nose high, 65 mph,let it quit flying, ease the nose wheel on. Prop is close to the ground but I used to fly into a grass strip in NYS , 2300 feet, same technique, no problem. You would really have to screw up the landing to have a prop strike.

Yep, and coming in hot is the way to screw it up.

 

[zaitcev]

To each his own, I don't like the extended float in ground effect at 70.

I did 110-100-90 mph for downwind-base-final in M20E with mph airspeed, that ends running 78 knots by my calculation. It didn't seem like floating too much. In fact going slower than 90 mph made it hard to flare. I dunno how you guys manage 70 knots without slamming it down. I can see doing it in Bo with its bomber gear, but not in Mooney. Vs0 is 63 mph so indeed 90 was a bit more 1.3 Vs0. Still, it seemed to slow down alarmingly in the round-out. Maybe I was flaring too high though. I was a fairly green pilot back then.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

I did 110-100-90 mph for downwind-base-final in M20E with mph airspeed, that ends running 78 knots by my calculation. It didn't seem like floating too much. In fact going slower than 90 mph made it hard to flare. I dunno how you guys manage 70 knots without slamming it down. I can see doing it in Bo with its bomber gear, but not in Mooney. Vs0 is 63 mph so indeed 90 was a bit more 1.3 Vs0. Still, it seemed to slow down alarmingly in the round-out. Maybe I was flaring too high though. I was a fairly green pilot back then.

Been there, done that, fixed that.

Execute proper technique and the numbers do work! You were finding it hard to flare, because you were likely trying to flare when the airplane still wanted to fly, ballooned it, then lost your flying speed too high above the ground and dropped it in. So instead you found it easier to fly it onto the runway and burn off your excess energy there.


As Henning said, get up in the air and find the dirty stall speed -- as it reads on your plane, with your airspeed indicator. I have a gross weight number and a "me only, light on fuel" number. Multiply by 1.2 to 1.3 and put that on a sticker on the panel in plain view.

Come in at the right speed, hold it 6" - 12" off the runway. Do not intentionally try to flare, just hold that altitude until it won't fly any more, and airplane will settle down gently on the mains with the nose gear up in the air at just the right attitude.

It will use a whole lot less runway and drama than if you were trying to force it to a landing, nose gear first, when you are running out of room on that one day you need to land on a shorter-than-what-you-are-used-to runway.

Here's a nice write-up from the Mooney Pilots group:

http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/M20J Evaluation/M20J_evaluation_report.html

Let's look at some stall speeds and characteristics in the J model. Stall speeds are quite low in the J model. Lots of pilots think that the J model is a "hot" airplane with high stall speeds and harsh characteristics at the stall. Not so. We found that N531DD stalled at 58 KIAS/67MIAS gear down and flaps up and at 52 KIAS/60MIAS with the gear down and the flaps full down.

...

Using the stall speeds derived above, let's set some approach speeds and shoot some landings to get a feel for the airplane in the pattern and in the landing flare. Using our old rule of multiplying the stall speeds times 1.2 to determine "over the threshold" speeds, we come up with 1.2 times 58 KIAS = 70 KIAS with the flaps up and 1.2 times 52 KIAS = 62 KIAS with the flaps full down. I know these numbers sound low -- they did to me. But let's try them out in a series of landings.

I like to fly the pattern in a J model at 100 KIAS. I use this speed for my climb, crosswind, downwind and base. On final, I begin slowing to 80 KIAS and am at my targeted threshold speed of 1.2 times the stall speed as I enter the landing flare... I next tried the targeted threshold speed of 62 KIAS over the numbers with the flaps full down. Again, perfection! Good energy left for the flare and touchdown. At no time did I feel the airplane was going to fall out from under me.

...

Regardless of the type of Mooney you fly, try finding out what your threshold speeds should be in this same manner. Go up to altitude and do some stalls with the gear down and the flaps up and the gear down and the flaps down. Note the indicated airspeeds where the stall break or buffet occurs. Multiply these indicated stall speeds times 1.2. Use the resulting speeds as the target speed you want to be at as you cross the numbers and begin to flare the airplane for landing. We're having way too many landing overshoots and prop strikes in our ranks these days -- all the result of excessive airspeed during the landing flare and touchdown. Get those speeds in check. It's okay to fly the pattern at any speed -- I like 100 KIAS, slowing to 80 KIAS on final. But those speeds must be slower as we begin our landing flare. So determine what the indicated stall speeds are for your particular airplane at the weight you fly the most, multiply them times 1.2 and set that as your target speed for beginning the landing flare. Your landing distances will be shorter -- guaranteed. Your landing gear maintenance will be less -- guaranteed. And the chances of the airplane porpoising and getting up on the nose gear during the landing will all but be eliminated -- saving a very expensive engine/propeller replacement if you should have a prop strike.

 

[KSMooniac]

For a guy that doesn't like Mooneys, Henning's advice is spot-on. Ditto for ElPaso, although he likes Mooneys.

With proper speed control, they are easy to land. Come in fast and all sorts of problems can arise...the least of which is excessive float and runway usage. Coming in fast in a Cessna or Piper is a lot easier to salvage compared to a Mooney.

To the OP, Mooneys or Bonanzas can (and are) purchased as first planes by many folks. Successful and safe transition depends on the new owner's attitude and skill, with attitude being most important. Getting a very good instructor that is very experienced in the same plane will pay off tremendously, and a lot of that time can also be used for instrument training.

Go get some rides and stick time in as many planes as you can, and then start shopping.

 

[Dav8or]

Yep. I had a buddy who bought an Exec and was having trouble getting on the ground. I went up with him, did a couple stalls to find the speed, settled on 65 for the approach. He was freaking out because the instructor who checked him out told him 80 over the numbers. 65 had it doing nice landings.

If you mean 65 knots then that is spot on with what I use in my Executive 21 for two up. If you mean 65 mph as the stock Executive has as the priority reading on the ASI, that is dangerously close to stall in the dirty configuration. The book has the dirty landing stall at 62 mph. Either way, 80 is way too fast. If the instructor was thinking 80 mph (as the guy who checked me out did) and the plane had an ASI with kts as the priority number with the student trying to land at 80kts then, wow! I'm surprised he ever landed!

 

[Henning]

If you mean 65 knots then that is spot on with what I use in my Executive 21 for two up. If you mean 65 mph as the stock Executive has as the priority reading on the ASI, that is dangerously close to stall in the dirty configuration. The book has the dirty landing stall at 62 mph. Either way, 80 is way too fast. If the instructor was thinking 80 mph (as the guy who checked me out did) and the plane had an ASI with kts as the priority number with the student trying to land at 80kts then, wow! I'm surprised he ever landed!

62 is at max gross, we were well below, that's why I go and do the figures for actual weight and use the IAS-CAS chart to work a good set of numbers. I weighed 165, my buddy was small and probably 130. 65 mph worked very well and got us in on the numbers and short. I don't mind being right above stall coming over the threshold, in fact that's my aim since I want to set it on the numbers.

 

[tonycondon]

spent 20+ hrs in a M20E the week before last. Checked out my friend in it. 80 mph with full flaps resulted in nice landings just after after the stall warning buzzed. We both were very impressed by the landing characteristics of the plane and generally impressed with the plane overall.

 

[Dav8or]

What did the POH say? I had a buddy down in Charlotte who was a pilot, and he always urged me to add 5 knots "for the wife and kids." and I did just that for years, and never had great landings.

and...

Didn't look, POH number is for max gross, I like going up and stalling and getting a 1.3Vso speed at current weight when I'm evaluating a plane. I never add energy to a landing speed, it's counter productive.

This is why IMO, the AoA indicator is such a great addition to GA airplanes! I can't wait to get mine! Make life easy. Know the correct angle of attack and therefore airspeed, for any gross weight without a lot of stall testing.

 

[Henning]

and...



This is why IMO, the AoA indicator is such a great addition to GA airplanes! I can't wait to get mine! Make life easy. Know the correct angle of attack and therefore airspeed, for any gross weight without a lot of stall testing.

AOA indicators are indeed the way to go, wish they were standard equipment.

 

[Perezhr]

I guess it's that darn ego again but......I land a mooney pretty much like a tail dragger. Nose high, 65 mph,let it quit flying, ease the nose wheel on. Prop is close to the ground but I used to fly into a grass strip in NYS , 2300 feet, same technique, no problem. You would really have to screw up the landing to have a prop strike.

Agree. I purchased a Mooney after renting P&C for years and had no trouble at all with landings even when my speed over the numbers was a little high. Just fly it in ground effect and it will settle gently once you dissipated all excess speed. The penalty for excess speed is that you'll float for a while which could be bad if you don't have enough pavement in front. Anyway, as others have said I'm not in favor of buying a starter airplane as long as you don't go crazy and get into something you can't handle. I don't think the short/medium body Mooney's or Bo's fall in that category. Whichever you purchase get transition training from someone that KNOWS the airplane. Figure out your mission and how much you want to spend both in initial purchase and operating expenses. Long X/C are what Mooney's and Bo's excel at. There is definitely more room in a Bo, while the a Mooney offers speed at a very low fuel burn. Go fly them both. Can't go wrong with either.


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[Dav8or]

62 is at max gross, we were well below, that's why I go and do the figures for actual weight and use the IAS-CAS chart to work a good set of numbers. I weighed 165, my buddy was small and probably 130. 65 mph worked very well and got us in on the numbers and short. I don't mind being right above stall coming over the threshold, in fact that's my aim since I want to set it on the numbers.

One Mooney specific consideration about landing as slow as possible- When you land real slow, the airplane tends to "plop" down on the runway which is great during a short field landing. However, if you misjudge the flare height (lots of average, weekend GA pilots like myself do), there is little to no time to correct and so the "plop" could be more of a bang. Setting aside the prop clearance issue that is more of an issue for people that want to drive the plane on at high speed, there is the issue of the wet wings.

While the Mooney is built really stout and the gear can handle pretty much whatever crappy landing you throw at it, the seals in the wet wings not so much. In a brand new Mooney, or one that has recently stripped and resealed tanks, you have lee way. On old original tanks like mine, you could be opening yourself up for a very pricey repair. Smooth is good and whatever it takes for the GA amateur to get 'er on the ground smooth and in a reasonable distance is my advise. I like 70mph for me by myself.

 

[Henning]

One Mooney specific consideration about landing as slow as possible- When you land real slow, the airplane tends to "plop" down on the runway which is great during a short field landing. However, if you misjudge the flare height (lots of average, weekend GA pilots like myself do), there is little to no time to correct and so the "plop" could be more of a bang. Setting aside the prop clearance issue that is more of an issue for people that want to drive the plane on at high speed, there is the issue of the wet wings.

While the Mooney is built really stout and the gear can handle pretty much whatever crappy landing you throw at it, the seals in the wet wings not so much. In a brand new Mooney, or one that has recently stripped and resealed tanks, you have lee way. On old original tanks like mine, you could be opening yourself up for a very pricey repair. Smooth is good and whatever it takes for the GA amateur to get 'er on the ground smooth and in a reasonable distance is my advise. I like 70mph for me by myself.

Which was the basis of my comment to drive the runway in a wheelie a few times, it really helps get the correct round out transition down, it's what I do whenever I check myself out, works a lot better than trying to learn it 1/2 second at a time doing touch and go patterns. Mooney gear plops pretty well anyway. You're not likely to bend a Mooney plopping it on unless you're way high, Mooneys are about the toughest built GA planes out there, the only thing that may be tougher is the Commander.