Mooney fatal at Palo Alto

[woodchucker]

It's what Chuck Yaeger probably would have done. :7)

Not likely. Yeager would have the autopilot set to arrive over the field at 10k agl and would have been in the back seat with his mistress. Upon perfect timing he would have grabbed the controls, gone into an inverted maneuver only known to him, stabilized at 100 agl and stopped on the runway such that he taxied off by the aircraft waiting to depart.

 

[Bill]

It's what Chuck Yaeger probably would have done. :7)

Not likely. Yeager would have the autopilot set to arrive over the field at 10k agl and would have been in the back seat with his mistress. Upon perfect timing he would have grabbed the controls, gone into an inverted maneuver only known to him, stabilized at 100 agl and stopped on the runway such that he taxied off by the aircraft waiting to depart.

Of course, Chuck Norris would have had the earth rise to meet his airplane!

 

[blueskyMD]

I have flown only once in Mooney with one of my friend and he told me that speed management is very difficult in Mooney on landing . The sleek air frame is hard to slow down and you have to be on toes to land it properly but with enough practice and familiarity with plane it can be mastered. I was amazed at how low he flew short final to make it to touchdown point.

 

[Salty]

I have flown only once in Mooney with one of my friend and he told me that speed management is very difficult in Mooney on landing . The sleek air frame is hard to slow down and you have to be on toes to land it properly but with enough practice and familiarity with plane it can be mastered. I was amazed at how low he flew short final to make it to touchdown point.

No need to drag a mooney in. You can fly a stabilized approach just fine at the right speed.

 

[eman1200]

I have flown only once in Mooney with one of my friend and he told me that speed management is very difficult in Mooney on landing . The sleek air frame is hard to slow down and you have to be on toes to land it properly but with enough practice and familiarity with plane it can be mastered. I was amazed at how low he flew short final to make it to touchdown point.

speed mgmt is NOT difficult to do, it's just very important to do. but that goes for any plane. it'll just bite u more if you're not on your speeds than say a Cherokee.

 

[NordicDave]

speed mgmt is NOT difficult to do, it's just very important to do. but that goes for any plane. it'll just bite u more if you're not on your speeds than say a Cherokee.

Seems like consensus here, was this poor fella was way behind the aircraft and would have been wise for him to circle the pattern and get better set-up. RIP.

 

[arnoha]

Spoke to the local controller. Turns out he was only on duty at the time because he was maintaining currency due to being on parental leave. (Controllers have to maintain currency too. Learn something every day.) Last few hours of his three-day currency shifts. Man, sucks to have something like that happen on your shift. I guess if it was going to happen, good to have it happen with a highly experienced controller. Keeps everyone else safe. But you can't fly the plane from the tower; nothing he could have done to prevent this.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

I have flown only once in Mooney with one of my friend and he told me that speed management is very difficult in Mooney on landing . The sleek air frame is hard to slow down and you have to be on toes to land it properly but with enough practice and familiarity with plane it can be mastered. I was amazed at how low he flew short final to make it to touchdown point.

It's really not particularly difficult, you just have to do it. Unfortunately, too many people who learned in draggier airframes like Cherokees and Cessnas don't realize that, and there are too many people who get checked out in their Mooneys by CFIs who fly... Cherokees and Cessnas most of the time, so they won't know to break the student of their bad habits.

 

[hindsight2020]

well, that and mooney flaps are decorative, like the gear handle in those ol' soviet yak trainers

 

[Dave Theisen]

But, but, but, .... in the complex thread, everyone claims it only takes an hour or so to be a pro. Sigh.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Looking a little more - This was a '92 M20J with no speed brakes. PAO is only 2400 feet. With that length runway, and no speed brakes, you need to be on speed in a Mooney.

 

[Dave Theisen]

Looking a little more - This was a '92 M20J with no speed brakes. PAO is only 2400 feet. With that length runway, and no speed brakes, you need to be on speed in a Mooney.

Seems like this accident happened before he even took off.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I wonder if the new SFO airspace changes added to the confusion?

 

[arnoha]

I wonder if the new SFO airspace changes added to the confusion?

Highly unlikely. The space around PAO that isn't Bravo got bigger with the change, not smaller. If he was unfamiliar, the new Bravo actually makes life easier. It's only harder for those of us that had flown the old so much it was engraved into our brains.

 

[zaitcev]

I wonder if the new SFO airspace changes added to the confusion?

Not to the extent the Phoenix Bravo contributed to the Superstition Mountain crash, if at all. If anything, the need to stay under the 3000 ft shelf when over the bridge should have helped to slow down by the time of the arrival.

 

[NordicDave]

Highly unlikely. The space around PAO that isn't Bravo got bigger with the change, not smaller. If he was unfamiliar, the new Bravo actually makes life easier. It's only harder for those of us that had flown the old so much it was engraved into our brains.

Agree highly with Armen. Have a look at post #75. Literally 3 minutes of preflight planning would have helped him greatly. All he had to do was fly along the 4 lane freeway bridge and turn left over the salt marsh. This about the easiest local checkpoint in the country... major bridge over open water.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Seems like this accident happened before he even took off.

Well, it's certainly within the capabilities of the airplane, but the pilot probably should have exercised the judgement to take an extra trip around the pattern to slow down before landing. I'm guessing he may have waited until he HAD TO go around (after the bounce) due to the pressure to look good for the pax. He doesn't look so good now.

 

[zaitcev]

Prelim is out

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20180904X52324&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA

"The left fuel tank appeared intact, and contained about 17 gallons of fuel. The right tank was found devoid of fuel."

What's more likely: the gasoline leaked from a ruptured tank or he forgot to switch to the fuller tank before landing?

 

[FlySince9]

What's more likely: the gasoline leaked from a ruptured tank or he forgot to switch to the fuller tank before landing?

Where does it say the empty tank was the one selected?

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Prelim is out

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20180904X52324&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA

"The left fuel tank appeared intact, and contained about 17 gallons of fuel. The right tank was found devoid of fuel."

What's more likely: the gasoline leaked from a ruptured tank or he forgot to switch to the fuller tank before landing?

Not sure about that particular Mooney, but mine has annunciators for "LEFT FUEL" and "RIGHT FUEL" that are hard to miss. The accident airplane was 5 years older than mine (1992), and looking at a 1991 airplane on Controller I can see an annunciator panel that looks likely identical to mine. The description of the accident sounds like a departure stall/spin, so it's very possible that the impact opened up the seams on a tank and let it leak out into the bay. Surprised they didn't say anything about whether or not an oil slick was observed on the water in the surrounding area or the position of the fuel selector.

Here's what I found more surprising, though, given the pilot's difficulty visually identifying the airport: "The logbook indicated that he had made 18 trips to PAO in the Cirrus, and 10 trips in the Piper. The accident flight was his fourth flight to PAO in the accident airplane." I would think that by his 33rd trip in, he'd have some clue how to find it without ATC assistance!

 

[idahoflier]

Here's what I found more surprising, though, given the pilot's difficulty visually identifying the airport: "The logbook indicated that he had made 18 trips to PAO in the Cirrus, and 10 trips in the Piper. The accident flight was his fourth flight to PAO in the accident airplane." I would think that by his 33rd trip in, he'd have some clue how to find it without ATC assistance!

Agree. Makes you wonder if something else was going on...

 

[luvflyin]

Prelim is out

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/R...tID=20180904X52324&AKey=1&RType=HTML&IType=FA

"The left fuel tank appeared intact, and contained about 17 gallons of fuel. The right tank was found devoid of fuel."

What's more likely: the gasoline leaked from a ruptured tank or he forgot to switch to the fuller tank before landing?

I would think that if there was leaking fuel at the accident site, that would have been in the report.

 

[arnoha]

Here's what I found more surprising, though, given the pilot's difficulty visually identifying the airport: "The logbook indicated that he had made 18 trips to PAO in the Cirrus, and 10 trips in the Piper. The accident flight was his fourth flight to PAO in the accident airplane." I would think that by his 33rd trip in, he'd have some clue how to find it without ATC assistance!

Given that he said he was unfamiliar with KGO, I would believe he'd never have landed 13. Out of 33 landings, having only one on 13 would be very common, especially if it's not your home airport (13 is usually early morning only). Winds were weird that day, resulting in 13 being used far longer into the day. From the north, landing 13 means a much shorter, quicker approach. The airport is somewhat hard to find visually, as it's quite small and unusually shaped. 13 landings also result in a very different sight picture.

The pictures showed no oil slick and there hasn't been any real attempt to clean up anything in the area. If there was fuel spilled, it wasn't much. With the airplane turning 180 degrees inside of 150'-200', there's really no question it was a spin. He was definitely new to the plane, with only 22 hours solo. Wonder what the 16 hours of dual were all about? That's a lot of dual if it's just for insurance checkout.

New wrinkle: maybe engine failure on climb-out due to fuel starvation and a poor recovery from the pilot is what led to the stall and spin? Definitely possible that the pitch up unported any remaining fuel. Wish the report had indicated if the engine was making power at the moment of impact.