Money M10 cancelled, new design on the way

zaitcev said:
Boeing was already exploring this space with the 787. I think it has electric pressurization and electric de-icing.
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Yup, and electric smoke generators too.
 
MAKG1 said:
Umm, where do you think the electrical power comes from?
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If the overall system is more efficient, the burden it places is reduced for the same function. Bleed air is not free either, and it dumps its heat through a heat exchanger before delivered into the cabin. Clearly a brute force system.
 
MAKG1 said:
Umm, where do you think the electrical power comes from?
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A very long extension cord?

Some of ideas...a 152? Fixed gear? Why don't they build a Fokker?

They need a turbo, pressurized, FIKI 4 seater capable of 300 knots (hence retract), price it well below turbines, higher than Cirrus. Seems to be a soft spot in the market around 1-1.5 mil range.
 
teejayevans said:
They need a turbo, pressurized, FIKI 4 seater capable of 300 knots (hence retract), price it well below turbines, higher than Cirrus. Seems to be a soft spot in the market around 1-1.5 mil range.
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This aircraft exists already. The Evolution Turboprop at $1.4m. Neither the Evolution gas or turboprop versions are attracting SR22T customers. Both Evos can be configured with a parachute and FIKI and are both based on the same airframe.

But Cirrus customers seem to be happy with the SRxx product line and Cirrus is expecting high end SR22T customers to jump to the SF50 when they want to upgrade to jet speeds and useful load.

The Evolution airframe is said to be utility class and certifiable. If Mooney were to buy Evolution and finish certification of the product they may be able to capture some of Cirrus market but there seems to be no hint of that as a strategy.
 
As I see it there are two soft spots in the market. First, as people have said, if a pressurized certified 4 seater. The second would be new blood in the six seat market. There has not been a significant new six in the piston market since the PA46, and it would be a logical step up from an SR22T.

My vote would be a turbo, plastic 6, with BRS. With both a pressurized and unpressurized version. I know that sound somewhat like Piper, but I am thinking more like a modern PA32, or Bonanza.

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ChemGuy said:
If there is only a market for ie. 100 planes like a year, and Cirrus has all of them, what happens when 20,30,50 go somewhere else? My guess is someone goes under. But thats a long way off...
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Who says the next market "correction" that drops the annual numbers to 50 total, is a "long way off"? Can happen anytime. And has before.
 
I'd like a cabin the size of a DA50, Turbo, retract, 1300 useful, BRS and faster than an SR22T


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Getting my bet in now. Plastic 4 seater. No pressurization. Retract. Faster than cirrus with turbo and non turbo versions. FIKI, air conditioning and BRS.
 
I baffles me how companies can see profit with such a tiny evolution in design/performance of a market already saturated with capable aircraft already in production, with service history and support.

Its just not worth the certification effort costs. Adam aircraft comes to mind. Eclipse just barely survived.

Want a faster airplane? Buy a turbine already out there...

Just build a spreadsheet and group aircraft by horsepower, then order them by speed. From that you can pretty much figure out if your ideal cabin space and speed is even reasonable. Useful load also worth noting. Useful load has only shrank with newer regulations like crashworthiness and multiple load paths.
 
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Look at the panthera, there is still room for better aircraft. People want a cockpit like their Bmw or Mercedes


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gsengle said:
Look at the panthera, there is still room for better aircraft. People want a cockpit like their Bmw or Mercedes


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When they are actually delivering aircraft I'll look again.
 
Look at the SR22 or DA50/62 cockpits you can buy now. Automotive.


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gsengle said:
Look at the SR22 or DA50/62 cockpits you can buy now. Automotive.
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There are no G1000 panels in luxury cars. Nor airbag seatbelts or mixture controls. Leather seats in an aircraft do not a car make.
 
citizen5000 said:
There are no G1000 panels in luxury cars. Nor airbag seatbelts or mixture controls. Leather seats in an aircraft do not a car make.
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I don't get your point. Cirrus has sold a ton of planes despite not being a great airframe, I contend for 2 reasons. Size and comfort and 'look' of the cockpit, and BRS.

Look means leather, carbon fiber, brushed aluminum, less industrial switchgear, cup holders, nice lighting, and so on...

Look at the new ultras. Whole lot different eh? Wonder why...

738d8eb68e00e0e2ae4a2d687723b9d7.jpg



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Cirrus sells the most piston singles because they are the best balance of design, quality, performance, features, cost, safety and comfort. Mooney is playing catch-up but still have yokes, narrow cockpit, a prop control, vernier throttle control, crowded non ergonomic panel, no BRS chute, and retractable gear. Cirrus doesn't have cup holder btw. Mooney apparently had room for them since they had no room for a center console that goes between the seats.
 
Disagree. It's kinda ugly exterior with fixed gear, has historically had not great build quality, has the poorest performance of the fast io550 planes, is expensive, had a poor safety record despite the chute.

What they have is comfort, automotive style features (key fob unlocking?) and the psychology of the chute. It's kinda cringy like bmw lifestyle brand advertising but it sells to the nouveau riche - #cirruslife


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I doubt that money can be made at the low end of the market, otherwise we'd see much much more LSA.

Cirrus is very successful as is Cubcrafters, because the serve a segment of the market in which customers do not have the "but for half the price I could have this great 40 year old XYZ".

In the experimental world it's Van's, who already sold close to 10,000 kits, also servings the higher end of the market.
 
gsengle said:
Disagree. It's kinda ugly exterior with fixed gear, has historically had not great build quality, has the poorest performance of the fast io550 planes, is expensive, had a poor safety record despite the chute.
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The market says otherwise. And the safety data says they are now one of the safer planes.

If it helps you to sleep at night go ahead and keep saying those things though. :)

No, I don't own one, but I have flown them quite a bit and like them. Passengers like them too.
 
That's my whole point, the market likes it. Despite it being mediocre as an aircraft.

So it's not enough to be a good airplane. See???


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gsengle said:
That's my whole point, the market likes it. Despite it being mediocre as an aircraft.

So it's not enough to be a good airplane. See???
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Bzzzt. Try again. Circular reasoning, and with invalid assumptions.
 
Don't be arrogant. It's not circular reasoning at all. And this isn't a game show, and the argument stands.

The market in large numbers doesn't want a great airplane specs wise or aerodynamically. They want a chute and a luxury interior.


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zaitcev said:
If the overall system is more efficient, the burden it places is reduced for the same function. Bleed air is not free either, and it dumps its heat through a heat exchanger before delivered into the cabin. Clearly a brute force system.
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That's one advantage I was thinking of, the pressurization air wouldn't need to be cooled.

MAKG1 said:
Umm, where do you think the electrical power comes from?
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Well, this certainly goes in the category of stupid sarcastic questions.

Running an alternator that's putting out 40 amps plus other whatever other aircraft electrical loads are needed is friendlier to an engine than apportioning part of a turbo output to cabin pressure. Besides, I said it was a throwaway idea.
 
3393RP said:
That's one advantage I was thinking of, the pressurization air wouldn't need to be cooled.



Well, this certainly goes in the category of stupid sarcastic questions.

Running an alternator that's putting out 40 amps plus other whatever other aircraft electrical loads are needed is friendlier to an engine than apportioning part of a turbo output to cabin pressure. Besides, I said it was a throwaway idea.
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40 amps to run a pressurization system on a small aircraft? You're kidding, right?

No, it's a stupid idea, not a stupid question. You think you can pressurize an aircraft with a 1000 watt hairdryer.
 
You lot may have scoffed at the 152 comment but who is making trainers these days? Two seat affordable trainers? Nearly indestructible trainers?
Just thought that since nobody else in 'MURICA wants to, why not Mooney? The market is already full of high end four seat plastic planes, tough market to jump in right now, why not come in the back and surprise everyone by taking away the large profit flight school bulk order contracts by giving them what everyone needs right now in a two seat, five gallon an hour, bullet proof plane. Costs are the reason most people cannot afford to fly so let's help minimize that.
Just a thought.

Besides, you think this scene would have had the same effect if it was a glass panel 172 doing ten Gergen bank turns instead of the mighty aerobat!
Darn right it wouldn't.
 
Re trainers, I just think about what happened to the 162 Skycatcher. If anyone had the brand to build a trainer...


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Cirrus has done a great job marketing their airplanes and the "Cirrus lifestyle". Just pick up one of their brochures. Awesome airplanes, but $900,000 awesome? Idk. Thing is the wealthy folk don't care what the price is anyways. They are too busy cutting costs and screwing their employees below them while they reap millions. Must be nice to be in the good ole boys club at the top ;)
 
CC268 said:
... Thing is the wealthy folk don't care what the price is anyways. They are too busy cutting costs and screwing their employees below them while they reap millions.
...
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Stereotype much?

Most of my clients are what most would consider "wealthy," and they treat their employees very well, indeed. Treating productive people badly means you lose them to better employers, and hiring and training new people costs a great deal more than paying good people well in the first place.
 
SCCutler said:
Stereotype much?

Most of my clients are what most would consider "wealthy," and they treat their employees very well, indeed. Treating productive people badly means you lose them to better employers, and hiring and training new people costs a great deal more than paying good people well in the first place.
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I just like to stir the pot a bit sometimes Mr. Cutler. Smaller businesses tend to me much better about this. Big corporations are a whole 'nother story.
 
CC268 said:
I just like to stir the pot a bit sometimes Mr. Cutler. Smaller businesses tend to me much better about this. Big corporations are a whole 'nother story
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I've found the opposite. The point is some businesses are good and ethical and others are not, big or small.

What bothers me is the materialism over all else. I lived in NYC for 20 years, watching people chase the hottest new restaurant where dinner can run $200 a head or more. People's value becomes how well they dress or how much money they make over how well they treat people or how they leave the world they live in... it's a stereotype granted, but it's the Bmw driver that cuts me off in my minivan with the kids on 95. I used to get the Bmw lifestyle magazine full of models and glossy photos with images of how to live less than about the product. It's all very reminiscent of #cirruslife. I'm sure it's not every pilot and the plane isn't all bad, but I prefer the engineering over the gloss and I gave up on bmw. Now I have an old Toyota pickup, a Honda minivan and a vw golf for fun, and not because I can't afford the bmw. And I love my Mooney for being about substance for all it's quirks. Sorry for the rant.

So what's the market position that Mooney can carve out to sell a bunch of planes? Is it Audi? Caddlac? Porsche? Vw?

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Don't see the connection between class envy and aircraft design. Some may be willing to pay more based on a brand rep but aircraft owners are also trained pilots and likely buy based on mission more than shiny objects in a cockpit.
 
citizen5000 said:
Don't see the connection between class envy and aircraft design. Some may be willing to pay more based on a brand rep but aircraft owners are also trained pilots and likely buy based on mission more than shiny objects in a cockpit.
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If only that were true....


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And there is nothing wrong with that but the best way to win in the market might not to be to try to mimic Cirrus, it might be to differentiate...


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CC268 said:
Cirrus has done a great job marketing their airplanes and the "Cirrus lifestyle". Just pick up one of their brochures. Awesome airplanes, but $900,000 awesome? Idk. Thing is the wealthy folk don't care what the price is anyways. They are too busy cutting costs and screwing their employees below them while they reap millions. Must be nice to be in the good ole boys club at the top ;)
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Could also be that they work hard, make sacrifices, apply themselves, and never settle. They don't sit around bitching about those with means.

Just sarcastically speculating....
 
MetalCloud said:
Could also be that they work hard, make sacrifices, apply themselves, and never settle. They don't sit around bitching about those with means.

Just sarcastically speculating....
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Only at the expense of others!!! ;) just kidding...if it wasn't for guys like you I wouldn't have all these welfare checks to pay for my flying habit!
 
Go find the old book "the millionaire next door". What they found was that in most cases the real wealthy didn't flaunt it. They drove a Jeep Grand Cherokee. They worked hard owned say a plumbing company and looked more like Warren Buffet lifestyle wise. And that more often than not the Mercedes driver was living paycheck to big paycheck and had leased the vehicle. Frugality was what drove wealth.

The point is looks can be deceiving... and I believe Cirrus pushes the financing options, which is smart for them to do.


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gsengle said:
Go find the old book "the millionaire next door". What they found was that in most cases the real wealthy didn't flaunt it. They drove a Jeep Grand Cherokee. They worked hard owned say a plumbing company and looked more like Warren Buffet lifestyle wise. And that more often than not the Mercedes driver was living paycheck to big paycheck and had leased the vehicle. Frugality was what drove wealth.

The point is looks can be deceiving...


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Already read it ;) it's sitting on my shelf. Your right. Amazing to see all these people in Scottsdale driving Mercedes and BMW...etc. Most of whom live way above their means. Although there are a lot of wealthy people in the area.
 
And here we have the #CheapBastardsClub TM :)

So I bet we have some millionaires next door


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If mooney wants to disrupt the market, they need to think like Tesla, not Ford. That's what Currus did in the beginning and it has worked out very well for them. I bought my Cirrus in 2009, when people on here hated the plane (many still do), but, many have seen the benefits of Cirrus design.

For instance, if Mooney, listens to the current pilot population (which is shrinking), they will fail miserably! They need to design an Electric trainer that has 3 hours endurance. This would capture the entry market. And set their brand up.

From what I'm reading, the fastest growing part of Aviation is Paramotors / Paragliders. What can Mooney learn from this market?

IMO, the biggest problem in Aviation today is that we are Dependent on an archaic infrastructure system. We need a VTOL capable bird, that can be kept in a driveway (that is not a helicopter). Unfortunately, technology is not there yet!
 
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