MOAs out West

SoCal RV Flyer

SoCal RV Flyer

En-Route
Joined
Apr 27, 2016
Messages
3,037
Display Name
Display name:
SoCal RV Flyer
I'm looking to fly from SoCal to Mammoth on Thursday, so after skirting the restricted airspace of Edwards AFB and China Lake, it looks like I'll be taking a tour through MOAs Isabella, Owens and Bishop. Any pointers/stories from those who have done this before? Are the Joshua controllers friendly? What can I expect? I typically fly around MOAs whenever possible but that's not an option on this route.
 
Meh...for MOA's just get flight following and plot your course. Inquire to status...active just means hours of operation are open, hot means activity is taking place...if hot then request vectors to keep ya outta the way otherwise head your merry VFR way on the best route that works for you. Absolutely no need to avoid MOAs if you are on FF...but you don't wanna be "that" guy that blows through without talking to anyone just cuz you can.
 
Could be UAV activity out south of Edwards, El Marage and Gray Butt airports should have aircraft flying. Joshua should have them identified.... and they are good to work with. I would say to say HI as you fly over, but Im off next week.... fun to build the UAV aricraft.... but also fun to be off!..
 
Have a camera ready to take pics of UAV/Cessna formation flights.
 
You'll have to be really high for flight following around there.
 
I've flown that route at least a half dozen times in recent years. Joshua Approach is very accommodating. Depending on your altitude, they can provide advisories up until about Independence. After that, you're on your own. If you follow the 395, I don't think you won't see them below about 15,000 north of Independence.

Jeff
 
I've flown through that complex a couple times. Controllers were cool. It was on weekends so MOA's weren't an issue. They offered me R2505 and 2524 above 10,000. It was bumpy later in the day. I knew a guy that commuted from MMH to WJF. He says you want to think twice about messing around with the Owens Valley if the winds aloft get over 25 knots.
 
Stewartb said:
There's no requirement to talk to anyone about flying through MOAs.
Click to expand...

True, but as a military controller having worked MOAs and restricted areas, why not check in and see what the action is? And yes, as a pilot I've flown thru both. One can even get permission to penetrate restricted areas by contacting the controlling agency. I used to do it all the time at Eglin AFB with my students as long as there was no activity, they (Eglin ATC) allowed me to use a restricted area that wasn't hot/active. Really senseless and careless not to check in, MOAs too.
 
Last edited:
Restricted areas have range controllers. MOAs do not. At least not up here. MOA active hours and altitudes are shown on charts.
 
Stewartb said:
There's no requirement to talk to anyone about flying through MOAs.
Click to expand...
Yeah. Lotsa different philosophies on that. There's something going on in the air there and often they are flying very fast. Besides the arguments of how safe is it to be moseying on thru without chattin with them it can be kinda rude. Often during those operations they are watching the sky. Not ATC, well yeah they can see the sky, it's the orginazation militarialy operating there. When they see ya puttin on through they sometimes have to shut down the excersise until you get outta the way. I try to cooperate, after all it's my tax buckos they are burnin up trying to get things done.
 
Last edited:
lol! Cooter's never seen the inside of a MOA.
 
luvflyin said:
Often during those operations they are watching the sky. Not ATC, well yeah they can see the sky, it's the orginazation militarialy operating there. When they see ya puttin on through they sometimes have to shut down the excersise until you get outta the way. I try to cooperate, after all it's my tax buckos they are burnin up trying to get things done.
Click to expand...

We had regular air traffic controllers in the radar room who monitored the restricted airspace at Eglin as well as providing approach control service. I've been stationed at locations where we monitored MOAs as well.
 
Last edited:
Velocity173 said:
But the controlling agency can provide valuable FF through the MOA. I've worked MOAs that are far more dangerous than Restricted Areas.
Click to expand...
I really like the MOAs with the notes about NVG training ops....maybe not worded quite that way but ya aren't gonna see'm out there.
 
Clark1961 said:
I really like the MOAs with the notes about NVG training ops....maybe not worded quite that way but ya aren't gonna see'm out there.
Click to expand...

Yeah another thing are these Tempory Restricted Areas that they operate lights out in. Personally not a fan of these. Plenty of MOAs or established Restricted Areas that they could conduct that training in.
 
Velocity173 said:
Plenty of MOAs or established Restricted Areas that they could conduct that training in.
Click to expand...

...except for all the jackwaggon VFR pilots that will just blow through MOA's not talking to anyone just cuz they legally can. Another example of why just cuz you can does not mean that you should is important...now they have to throw up Temporary Restricted Areas to protect their space when needed thanks to the Delta Bravo's out there.

I do not give a second though about flying through MOAs...but I am always talking to someone when I do.

I just got done Paramotor training which falls under the minimally regulated FAR Part 103 for ultralights. Cuz there are so few regulations, the Paramotor community has coined the DBAD rule...Don't Be a Dick...which is akin to the just cuz you can does not mean you should philosophy in order to protect the freedoms we have now.

To me, flying through a MOA unannounced whole heartedly violates the DBAD rule.
 
Last edited:
Shawn said:
...now they have to throw up Temporary Restricted Areas to protect their space when needed thanks to the Delta Bravo's out there...
Click to expand...

I've noticed that too. And the traffic isn't always manned vehicles any more either.
 
Shawn said:
...except for all the jackwaggon VFR pilots that will just blow through MOA's not talking to anyone just cuz they legally can. Another example of why just cuz you can does not mean that you should is important...now they have to throw up Temporary Restricted Areas to protect their space when needed thanks to the Delta Bravo's out there.

I do not give a second though about flying through MOAs...but I am always talking to someone when I do.

I just got done Paramotor training which falls under the minimally regulated FAR Part 103 for ultralights. Cuz there are so few regulations, the Paramotor community has coined the DBAD rule...Don't Be a Dick...which is akin to the just cuz you can does not mean you should philosophy in order to protect the freedoms we have now.

To me, flying through a MOA unannounced whole heartedly violates the DBAD rule.
Click to expand...

While I support a VFR pilot's freedom of not talking to anyone in a MOA, I too would never fly through without talking to ATC. Even then, that would be a MOA with little going on.

I've seen 1200 codes on radar with B-1s blowing by them at over 550 kts. Like swimming at a beach, I'd much rather have someone with the big picture telling me about the "sharks" vs being clueless about what's around me.
 
Last edited:
Stewartb said:
MOA active hours and altitudes are shown on charts.
Click to expand...
Actually, it shows their scheduled times which is quite different. And to be more precise, it doesn't even really represent their scheduled times. All that is listed in the chart is a rough estimate submitted to the agency that handles the charts. Many of those don't reflect the schedule at all because people don't bother to go through the process of updating them.
 
Thanks, guys. I'll be chatttin' with Joshua control for as long as I have reception.
 
Just call Joshua Approach for advisories through those MOAs, there are a couple of Fire TFR s right now. I was out there on last Friday. Worked some ILS 25 approaches into Plant 42 and then VFR to Tehachipe. After lunch and fuel we launched back for VGT passing south of China Lake, planned the S through the Trona Pass but Joshua cleared us across R2524 above 5500.

The MOAs were quiet the Friday before a long weekend. Did hear some traffic calls to others for UAS activity with chase planes.
 
Stewartb said:
There's no requirement to talk to anyone about flying through MOAs.
Click to expand...

Here in the southwest we give a courtesy call to ATC before we go through some of the restricted areas.

Stewartb said:
Restricted areas have range controllers. MOAs do not. At least not up here. MOA active hours and altitudes are shown on charts.
Click to expand...

I miss that. Talking to range control gave a better picture of what is in front of me. I have had range control take me through prohibited areas to miss weather.
 
Waking up within the Stony River MOA. Hearing the sonic booms that roll you out of the sack as the jet jocks announce their arrival. Jumping into the Cub and watching for fighters down to 100' agl. Knowing that if you talk? Nobody's listening. Keep your eyes open! Fun stuff.
 
Stewartb said:
Waking up within the Stony River MOA. Hearing the sonic booms that roll you out of the sack as the jet jocks announce their arrival. Jumping into the Cub and watching for fighters down to 100' agl. Knowing that if you talk? Nobody's listening. Keep your eyes open! Fun stuff.
Click to expand...

Well if you're outside of radar and frequency coverage, then obviously you're on your own. Just like an MTR in the mountains.

However, the vast majority of MOAs allow for FF through them by contacting the controlling agency.
 
Was with a friend flying through a MOA in our ultralights once, were passed by a couple B-2's about 2K feet below us. I carry a slingshot and a bag of marbles with me now, just in case.
Can hardly get anywhere around here without flying through one or more.
Dave
 
RangeRider said:
Was with a friend flying through a MOA in our ultralights once, were passed by a couple B-2's about 2K feet below us. I carry a slingshot and a bag of marbles with me now, just in case.
Can hardly get anywhere around here without flying through one or more.
Dave
Click to expand...

MOAs in the southwest are busy with a lot of fast movers. Nellis AFB, Edwards AFB, China Lake NAS, Twentynine Plams Marine Corp Station, Fallon NAS. Plus the UAS (MQ-9 Reaper) out of Mohave, flying outside the MOA, it's a good idea to talk to people.
 
BillTIZ said:
MOAs in the southwest are busy with a lot of fast movers. Nellis AFB, Edwards AFB, China Lake NAS, Twentynine Plams Marine Corp Station, Fallon NAS. Plus the UAS (MQ-9 Reaper) out of Mohave, flying outside the MOA, it's a good idea to talk to people.
Click to expand...

Speakers from local airbases (Cannon, Holloman, Kirtland) came to EAA meetings and WINGS seminars and, frankly, reduced my respect for MOAs. As it turns out, MOAs are located and used in such ways that the fast movers have to operate outside of MOA. In particular, when they drop in Melrose range, they stack and mill around the huge MOA north of Rosewell, but then they go to the deck, release at the range, fly out to the north. Guess where is all the traffic that navigates around the restricted area? I started climbing to 8-10k when bypassing the range, in hopes that the B-1Bs and F-15Es are going to be below.

The worst really is the Talon. That thing is basically completely invisible, even if you have a bubble canopy of Sky Arrow or fly a trike. Fortunately, they are mostly confined to the restricted areas west of Holloman.

Talking to someone is especially important at night, when Ospreys and C-130s start running around blacked out, as they practice in-flight refueling.
 
I've dropped on the Melrose Range and know of what you speak.

Ever look at the IR routes (yes I know that's a double use of the word route). I lived my life in IR routes at 320 and 540 knts, all outside of MOAs. Normally 400-500AGL, but occasionally at the "safe" IFR altitude at 1500-2500AGL.
 
Stewartb said:
There's no requirement to talk to anyone about flying through MOAs.

Do you fly in MOAs much? I do.

MOA active hours and altitudes are shown on charts.

Waking up within the Stony River MOA. Hearing the sonic booms that roll you out of the sack as the jet jocks announce their arrival. Jumping into the Cub and watching for fighters down to 100' agl. Knowing that if you talk? Nobody's listening. Keep your eyes open! Fun stuff.
Click to expand...

FFS.

Just because there's no requirement doesn't mean it's a good idea. Similarly, just because you live in BFE and think no one's listening doesn't mean that's true everywhere. Also, the hours on your chart are pretty close to meaningless and supersonic flight over land is prohibited.

We are always on UHF which might be why you think no one is listening, but I promise they care that you are there. Most of the time there's an interloper not talking to anyone in a MOA, everything stops until they're gone - which translates into a lot of wasted money and training time.
 
BillTIZ said:
I lived my life in IR routes at 320 and 540 knts, all outside of MOAs. Normally 400-500AGL, but occasionally at the "safe" IFR altitude at 1500-2500AGL.
Click to expand...

Seen F-4s a few times hauling the mail and lower than that on routes. ANG jets, airline boys playing I guess lol.
 
HornetDriver said:
FFS.

Just because there's no requirement doesn't mean it's a good idea. Similarly, just because you live in BFE and think no one's listening doesn't mean that's true everywhere. Also, the hours on your chart are pretty close to meaningless and supersonic flight over land is prohibited.

We are always on UHF which might be why you think no one is listening, but I promise they care that you are there. Most of the time there's an interloper not talking to anyone in a MOA, everything stops until they're gone - which translates into a lot of wasted money and training time.
Click to expand...
Hornet, I couldn't help but notice you used "Interloper". I used that term after switching over to the AF and got chided over the radio. I was sure I could find it somewhere but after searching the AF pubs I came up short. It must be a Navy/Marine Corps thing. Oh well, I feel a little bit justified now!
 
Not sure about Navy or Marine rules, but per Air Force training rules, if what's called an "unbriefed flight" (read: bug smasher puttering along at 90 kts) enters a MOA while we're conducting training, we have to STOP until that aircraft leaves. If you live anywhere close to a MOA, your airfield should have a Midair Collision Avoidance (MACA) pamphlet provided by the nearest Air Force base's flight safety office. Most have graphics that demonstrate just how fast an F-16 or A-10 will go from being a speck on the horizon to in your face. It's telling. As both an Air Force and civilian aviator, trust me when I say you should respect MOAs and not blindly going blitzing through them, even though it's perfectly legal to do so while VFR. I know the airspace out west is pretty convoluted and could take you well out of your way. If you choose to cross them, please treat them with healthy respect.
 
HornetDriver said:
FFS.

Just because there's no requirement doesn't mean it's a good idea. Similarly, just because you live in BFE and think no one's listening doesn't mean that's true everywhere. Also, the hours on your chart are pretty close to meaningless and supersonic flight over land is prohibited.

We are always on UHF which might be why you think no one is listening, but I promise they care that you are there. Most of the time there's an interloper not talking to anyone in a MOA, everything stops until they're gone - which translates into a lot of wasted money and training time.
Click to expand...

Alaska has some MOAs that allow supersonic flight down to 5,000 AGL. Perks of being stationed out in BFE I guess. But yeah, always a good practice to contact the controlling agency or an advisory service if one exists for the MOA.
 
Many MOA's allow supersonic flight over land. Alaska, Nellis, Luke, Holloman, Montana, Oregon, Idaho... that's just off the top of my head.
 
I thought there may be some waivers out there, but I'm an east coast guy and people actually live here so hitting the number within 10NM of land is a pretty big no-no, and I know it's an FAA prohibition. I don't remember it ever coming up in the training I've done out west.

Cooter said:
Hornet, I couldn't help but notice you used "Interloper". I used that term after switching over to the AF and got chided over the radio. I was sure I could find it somewhere but after searching the AF pubs I came up short. It must be a Navy/Marine Corps thing. Oh well, I feel a little bit justified now!
Click to expand...
I don't know if it's ALSA but that's pretty standard comm in Naval Aviation. It's pretty rich that "improper word usage" couldn't wait for the debrief; last time I shared a co use whiskey area with the AF they weren't even up common.
 
TDY to Boca Chita (sp?) for Ocean Venture in early 80s. Navy ATC Chief told an F-4 Sq from Seymour during a brief that a Marine F-4 broke the barrier over downtown Key West earlier and the Mayor wanted some butt. His story. Point was not to overfly KW.

The recovery to the naval base avoided flying over Key West but evidently this F-4 went super right over KW and broke a few windows, according to the Chief.
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top