Missing logs from 50ish years ago

LB 408A said:
when I was sure I did.
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Ha. But no not government property. Now if the ex-wife had torched the actual aircraft then it would have fallen under a federal crime.
 
Caramon13 said:
Ok....Aircraft buyer market as a whole = buyers. People who want complete logs = some of that market and some of those are potential buyers for your aircraft.

Your market and the pre-buys you did may drive you (or your customers) to either put a value on logs or not, but that 1/10 ratio only applies to YOU and your experiences.

If you look at the entire market, I'm certain it's more than 1/10 and THAT is probably highly subjective based on the plane you are buying, your emotional attachment to that plane regardless of missing logs, and a crapload of other factors. And hey, maybe no one makes a big deal out of it (or cares) for a 25K-30K aircraft from 50+ years ago.

All I'm saying is that I think it "should" affect value. The seller should expect to discount the plane and the buyer should expect a discount on it. It should also be a consideration in price not just for the people involved in the immediate sale, but downstream as well because that plane may get sold again. It's a transferrable hassle.

Two planes on a ramp, exact same everything. Both are listed at the same price. One has complete logs, one doesn't. Given the choice I believe most people would pick the one with complete logs. If you want a buyer to purchase the one that DOESN'T have complete logs, you better believe a discount is going to be in order.

As @Brad Z illustrated though, many factors can play into what value those logs actually have to the potential buyer. He was willing to overlook 10 years of logs for a deal due to market availability for that aircraft, that is a factor of course.
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How many airplanes have you purchased?
 
And while we're on the subject, who here believes properly repaired damage that occurred 50 years ago should result in a lower price than a similar undamaged aircraft?
 
3393RP said:
And while we're on the subject, who here believes properly repaired damage that occurred 50 years ago should result in a lower price than a similar undamaged aircraft?
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Buying? ‘Uuuuuge deal. Makes the whole plane dang near worthless. After buying? No big deal, check out the sweet ride. ...in all seriousness, I don’t give a rip about old logs or repaired damage (I do about newer ones). I have two planes that I bought without even an A&P prebuy (!!!!). Worked out great. Spent a significant amount of time doing what amounted to a background check on the owner and mechanics for the past 10 years maintenance though. Worked out swimmingly. I paid full asking for the one with good background checks, and 10% of vref for the one with bad background check. Thrilled with both purchases.

Seems this thread is more of a polling type question. Gives me a laugh to see percentages attached to something so subjective.
 
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3393RP said:
How many airplanes have you purchased?
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Why does that matter? You don't have to be someone who buys airplanes for a living to assign a complete aircraft (complete logs included) a higher value than one without complete logs.

I think we've already established they impact value in certain cases. We've also established that if you're buying a 25-30K aircraft from 50 years ago and 1 year of logs are missing (even if that year contains something drastic) some people might be willing to say "i don't care".

I'm not one of those people. I still maintain that incomplete logs regardless of the age of the aircraft and regardless of the time period should impact value, the degree of that impact varies on a number of factors. However, if I'm buying an aircraft you better believe I will factor that into what I offer. If the seller chooses to not sell it to me, no big deal. Plenty of aircraft with complete logs to pick from out there. I'm not going to inflate the price of an incomplete aircraft because someone I don't know assures me everything is "fine".

I put 100% value on complete things. Not complete = not 100% value.
 
3393RP said:
And while we're on the subject, who here believes properly repaired damage that occurred 50 years ago should result in a lower price than a similar undamaged aircraft?
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Depends on the damage. If you had to rebuild the plane, then that repaired plane is definitely not worth as much. Skin repair, meh..who cares? Prop strike? No big deal as long as everything was handled properly. Long as it's documented and the logs are complete :).

Damage to something that can't be easily swapped out for something else (significant airframe damage, for example) is a definite red flag.
 
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Doc Holliday said:
I think that was a legitimate question. So how many planes have you purchased?
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Why is it valid? Prove the correlation between volume of aircraft purchased and the fact that logbooks affect value. The two are not related.

If I bought 5 or 500, doesn't matter...
 
Caramon13 said:
Why is it valid? Prove the correlation between volume of aircraft purchased and the fact that logbooks affect value. The two are not related.

If I bought 5 or 500, doesn't matter...
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So you've never bought an aircraft? Am I correct?

And yes, it does matter. We can discuss all of the theoretical aspects all day long, but the reality lies in the actual process.
 
Doc Holliday said:
So you've never bought an aircraft? Am I correct?

And yes, it does matter. We can discuss all of the theoretical aspects all day long, but the reality lies in the actual process.
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Why does my past purchase history have any bearing on a completely unrelated topic of logs affecting value? I have bought and sold aircraft before.
 
Caramon13 said:
Why does my past purchase history have any bearing on a completely unrelated topic of logs affecting value? I have bought aircraft before.
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OK, so why is that such a hard question to answer? o_O

Did your purchase involve complete logbooks?
 
Caramon13 said:
It's not, I answered it back in post #25. Yes it did, they went back to 1965.
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OK.

So I've seen logbooks that have nothing but annual signoff's, oil changes and engine 100 hours for 40 years. Maybe a radio change here or there, and a separate AD listing. One would say "it has complete logs". On another identical aircraft (for discussion purposes) in mid life of the aircraft, 3 years of logs are missing. Is this going to really make that big of a difference in resale?

Remember, even the FAA doesn't require maintenance entries and inspections to be permanently kept, with the exception of a few items. Does an annual signoff from 40 years ago really tell us anything of the present condition? Does a 100 hour signoff previous to an engine overhaul tell us anything about the present condition of the engine? How about log entries about items that are no longer installed on the aircraft? What are their value?
 
Missing logbooks are going to affect value. Simple proof, some people are going to shy away, which means you'll have less demand and that means lower price.

How much more for 50 year old log books missing? IMO, not much, anything that happened 50 years ago doesn't have much impact today as long as the aircraft has been well inspected since. Just tell them the log books were in the hangar when the fire was put out by the flooding.
 
GrummanBear said:
Seems this thread is more of a polling type question. Gives me a laugh to see percentages attached to something so subjective.
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No like I said above there was an aircraft for sale in that situation, and I was wondering if it was even worth pursuing any farther because of the log situation or an immediate walk away. I'll openly admit to not owning yet and I'm testing the waters.
 
bflynn said:
Missing logbooks are going to affect value. Simple proof, some people are going to shy away, which means you'll have less demand and that means lower price.

How much more for 50 year old log books missing? IMO, not much, anything that happened 50 years ago doesn't have much impact today as long as the aircraft has been well inspected since. Just tell them the log books were in the hangar when the fire was put out by the flooding.
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Obviously it caused me to shy away at least enough to make this thread.

Maybe the log books were lost in the saltwater ditching ;)
 
Caramon13 said:
Why is it valid? Prove the correlation between volume of aircraft purchased and the fact that logbooks affect value. The two are not related.

If I bought 5 or 500, doesn't matter...
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Because you have spoken with an implied authority on the subject, and assigned a hard number to supposed devaluation when logbook history is incomplete.

Now it's apparent that you have little, if any, relevant experience regarding the subject, and you're just SGOTI.
 
steingar said:
Lots of buyers. Selling airplanes is a pain, but it isn't problematic.
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Yes and no. Too many variables to declare solidly one way or another.

But if you have a common aircraft type and it is missing logs, you are going to be competing with other comparable condition airplane without such issues when it comes time to sell.

You either wait for someone who isn’t bothered by it, or you lower your price.

Now, if you have a rare 80 year old airplane that was restored recently but is missing 75 years of logs, it might not matter.
 
GrummanBear said:
Seems this thread is more of a polling type question. Gives me a laugh to see percentages attached to something so subjective.
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True. These threads are always funny because you see folks with such strong opinions on the subject.....until they find themselves in a position to be buying or selling.
 
3393RP said:
And while we're on the subject, who here believes properly repaired damage that occurred 50 years ago should result in a lower price than a similar undamaged aircraft?
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Let’s put it this way. If I was looking to sell such an airplane, I would probably set the asking price to something comparable to the airplane with no damage history.

But, I’d be prepared to consider reasonable offers below that...
 
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