Missing Cessna 210 - Colorado to Utah

denverpilot

denverpilot

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DenverPilot
http://www.9news.com/article/news/l...eft-erie-for-utah-over-a-day-ago/73-534708312

Colorado to Utah on Monday, didn’t arrive. Search in progress. C-210 departed KEIK.

Not feeling good about this one. Still too cold up there for spending nights outside. Weather wasn’t great up there on Monday and forced search to stop for visibility, and wind, on Tuesday.

Have a bad feeling the Rockies ate another airplane.
 
Doesn’t look good.
 
Winds were fairly strong Monday. Looks like they started picking up a little after 9 a.m. with gusts over 30 at Kremmling. Imma thinkin’ Rollins Pass would have been a wild ride if he went that way.
 
Rough country to set down in, and worse to try to survive in or walk out of.
Pray for the best, prepare for the worst.
 
The Boulder paper said he was last seen on radar an hour from Richfield near I-70. Looking at the maps, the elevations near I-70 in that area aren't too bad ~9000 ft, but directly north or south of the pass the highway transits are some 11,000 ft+ mountains.
 
Departed 8am. Reported overdue 7PM. No flight plan. Maybe they couldn't have got a search started that day anyway if he'd of been overdue earlier in the day. And if they could have, may not have made any difference anyway. Something to think about though.
 
Obviously hoping for a good outcome but ......

a) No Flight Plan: VFR or IFR
b) No Flight Following
c) NO ADSB tracking
d). No position reports or ATC call-ups : Eagle Approach- Grand Junction etc

Weather :
a) Berthoud Pass: W45/G59
b) Winds at 15,000 at Kremmling that day - 290 @ 55
c) Forecast for Grand Junction at 10am : winds 260 at 25 G30
d) Winds over GJT at 13,000 : 300 at 45

What could possibly go wrong ??

All the above still have many here in the Front Range - shaking our heads and can’t believe the missteps here. Accidents are/can be traced in many directions — but that day was particularly rough and we realize he seems to have made it past GJT - But who knows at this point : No Fligth Plan - No ADSB Tracking - No Radio Contact along the entire route !! Simply bewildering

Flown that exact route maybe 20-30 times in the last 20’years - going to SoCal or Vegas- Phoenix. NEVER ONCE - without filing a flight plan. Never once without constant radio and ATC contact. NEVER ONCE !!
And 99% of hose trips were in good —- no great weather and little to no wind as a factor OR we cancelled and waited a day or two !!

Hopefully a young pilot will read this and be safe with himself and/or friends and family aboard !!

Still Perplexed:
JM
 
Where are all the smartass comments about flight plans that show up on this forum almost every time there is an aviation related story in the media?

It's a simple fact that a flight plan will initiate questions and a search for an overdue aircraft in an expeditious manner.

That flight plans are a target of derision on this forum possibly discourages their use by recently licensed pilots who join here.

That should certainly be seen as a terribly negative influence on safety. In my opinion, these sort of comments are irresponsible. I don't understand why anyone would make light of the use of flight plans.
 
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John M said:
Obviously hoping for a good outcome but ......

a) No Flight Plan: VFR or IFR
b) No Flight Following
c) NO ADSB tracking
d). No position reports or ATC call-ups : Eagle Approach- Grand Junction etc

Weather :
a) Berthoud Pass: W45/G59
b) Winds at 15,000 at Kremmling that day - 290 @ 55
c) Forecast for Grand Junction at 10am : winds 260 at 25 G30
d) Winds over GJT at 13,000 : 300 at 45

What could possibly go wrong ??

All the above still have many here in the Front Range - shaking our heads and can’t believe the missteps here. Accidents are/can be traced in many directions — but that day was particularly rough and we realize he seems to have made it past GJT - But who knows at this point : No Fligth Plan - No ADSB Tracking - No Radio Contact along the entire route !! Simply bewildering

Flown that exact route maybe 20-30 times in the last 20’years - going to SoCal or Vegas- Phoenix. NEVER ONCE - without filing a flight plan. Never once without constant radio and ATC contact. NEVER ONCE !!
And 99% of hose trips were in good —- no great weather and little to no wind as a factor OR we cancelled and waited a day or two !!

Hopefully a young pilot will read this and be safe with himself and/or friends and family aboard !!

Still Perplexed:
JM
Click to expand...
 
3393RP said:
Where are all the smartass comments about flight plans that show up on this forum almost every time there is an aviation related story in the media?

It's a simple fact that a flight plan will initiate questions and a search for an overdue aircraft in an expeditious manner.

That flight plans are a target of derision on this forum possibly discourages their use by recently licensed pilots who join here.

That could certainly be seen as a terribly negative influence on safety.
Click to expand...

Hi 3RP:

Are you responding that my post ? Do you see my post as negative ?

My post is/was about safety and a need to file either a VFR of IFR when crossing the Rockies ?

JM
 
3393RP said:
That flight plans are a target of derision on this forum possibly discourages their use by recently licensed pilots who join here.
Click to expand...
I believe most here are pattern flyers anyways. No need to file when you're only 5 or 10 miles from your base. ;)
 
John M said:
Hi 3RP:

Are you responding that my post ? Do you see my post as negative ?

My post is/was about safety and a need to file either a VFR of IFR when crossing the Rockies ?

JM
Click to expand...

No, quite the opposite. I think filing a flight plan before traversing mountainous terrain, especially when seasonal changes cause very strong winds, is an essential safety precaution.

I was commenting on the fact it is common for some POA posters to make fun of flight plans and their efficacy. Their position might change if they found themselves on a mountain meadow at 9,000' MSL with the sun going down and temperatures near freezing.
 
3393RP said:
No, quite the opposite. I think filing a flight plan before traversing mountainous terrain, especially when seasonal changes cause very strong winds, is an essential safety precaution.

I was commenting on the fact it is common for POA posters to make fun of flight plans and their efficacy. Their position might change if they found themselves in a mountain meadow at 9,000' MSL with the sun going down and temperatures near freezing.
Click to expand...
Good Deal 3RP- I am a BeechTalk contributor and received an email bump about POA —
Regarding your post - Ageee 10000% - and if folks make fun of Flight Plans - come fly with me (VTail Bonanza) when we cross the Rocks and things start to bounce around the cockpit !! May have second thoughts on filing an IFR plan or using Flight Following if VFR !!!

JM
 
John M said:
Obviously hoping for a good outcome but ......

a) No Flight Plan: VFR or IFR
b) No Flight Following
c) NO ADSB tracking
d). No position reports or ATC call-ups : Eagle Approach- Grand Junction etc

Weather :
a) Berthoud Pass: W45/G59
b) Winds at 15,000 at Kremmling that day - 290 @ 55
c) Forecast for Grand Junction at 10am : winds 260 at 25 G30
d) Winds over GJT at 13,000 : 300 at 45

What could possibly go wrong ??

All the above still have many here in the Front Range - shaking our heads and can’t believe the missteps here. Accidents are/can be traced in many directions — but that day was particularly rough and we realize he seems to have made it past GJT - But who knows at this point : No Fligth Plan - No ADSB Tracking - No Radio Contact along the entire route !! Simply bewildering

Flown that exact route maybe 20-30 times in the last 20’years - going to SoCal or Vegas- Phoenix. NEVER ONCE - without filing a flight plan. Never once without constant radio and ATC contact. NEVER ONCE !!
And 99% of hose trips were in good —- no great weather and little to no wind as a factor OR we cancelled and waited a day or two !!

Hopefully a young pilot will read this and be safe with himself and/or friends and family aboard !!

Still Perplexed:
JM
Click to expand...

You and the other locals on the front range may not be able to believe the missteps, but they don't strike me as being uncommon errors to make for someone from out east that hasn't dealt with mountain flying much (and hasn't read about it much). Do we know where this individual was actually from and what kind of flying they normally were doing?
 
mondtster said:
You and the other locals on the front range may not be able to believe the missteps, but they don't strike me as being uncommon errors to make for someone from out east that hasn't dealt with mountain flying much (and hasn't read about it much). Do we know where this individual was actually from and what kind of flying they normally were doing?
Click to expand...
And people laugh at us when we suggest a bit of mountain flight training...then turn around and say we should assume that folks don't know how to fly in the mountains. Okay. Which will it be?
 
Your humble bookflyer here again, with one (possibly dumb) question: No ELT? Why not? Doesn't that seem odd?
 
Clark1961 said:
And people laugh at us when we suggest a bit of mountain flight training...then turn around and say we should assume that folks don't know how to fly in the mountains. Okay. Which will it be?
Click to expand...

The same could be said for the myriad of other double standards exhibited on this board as well. ;)
 
Interestingly and completely off of the flight plan topic/argument... if he made it within an hour of the destination the accident odds would say he ran out of fuel...
 
denverpilot said:
Interestingly and completely off of the flight plan topic/argument... if he made it within an hour of the destination the accident odds would say he ran out of fuel...
Click to expand...
Fifty knot headwinds will have some impact on fuel management.
 
3393RP said:
Where are all the smartass comments about flight plans that show up on this forum almost every time there is an aviation related story in the media?

It's a simple fact that a flight plan will initiate questions and a search for an overdue aircraft in an expeditious manner.

That flight plans are a target of derision on this forum possibly discourages their use by recently licensed pilots who join here.

That should certainly be seen as a terribly negative influence on safety. In my opinion, these sort of comments are irresponsible. I don't understand why anyone would make light of the use of flight plans.
Click to expand...
Both Colorado Pilots Assoc and New Mexico Pilots Assoc STRONGLY encourage flight plans and constant ATC reporting in the mountain flying courses. During the ground school, the attendees develop a flight plan and note reporting points and frequencies for reporting. Be interesting to learn if the pilot attended either, or received any mountain training. As of this timestamp, still no update from CAP concerning Thursday searches.
 
Saw a Facebook post about it and thought it said they were near Telluride. If so thats not a good place to be in even minimally marginal weather. Field elevation 9k in a bowl surrounded by 14k peaks. Flew there last summer and approached from the SE it is crazy to have to find a saddle to fly thru when your at 13k.
 
BillW said:
Your humble bookflyer here again, with one (possibly dumb) question: No ELT? Why not? Doesn't that seem odd?
Click to expand...
Not sure how many have upgraded to the 406 elt. The 121.5 is no longer officially monitored and the odds of it working under the best of circumstances have been questionable.
 
murphey said:
Both Colorado Pilots Assoc and New Mexico Pilots Assoc STRONGLY encourage flight plans and constant ATC reporting in the mountain flying courses. During the ground school, the attendees develop a flight plan and note reporting points and frequencies for reporting. Be interesting to learn if the pilot attended either or received and mountain training. As of this timestamp, still no update from CAP concerning Thursday searches.
Click to expand...

Murph is 100% accurate. Communication and situational/geographical awarenesss is key at all times but paramount when mountain flying !

As for the 210 (N68640) still no sign of it as of 6pm MST Thursday evening. As if it vanished !!

JM
 
Update as of this timestamp due to the arguments.....

According to FAA records, >>>owner (and likely the pilot but there's no confirmation at this point, but he's been the owner since 2014) is from Boulder, last medical was 2006 and no Basic Med. Private only. Plus the registration on the 210 expired April 2017.
 
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John M said:
Hi 3RP:

Are you responding that my post ? Do you see my post as negative ?

My post is/was about safety and a need to file either a VFR of IFR when crossing the Rockies ?

JM
Click to expand...
Hi John,
For starters, welcome to POA! Interesting first post but nonetheless, welcome!
It is a tough crowd here fore sure so don't take anything personally. I would venture to guess (and could be wrong) that you are on the newer side to aviation. Your posts seem very "by the book" and that is ok! A couple of things, a flight plan does not necessarily equal safety. Flight following = great idea for sure so I agree there but not absolutely necessary. And as for ADS-B, aviation existed for many years before ADS-B. While it is a good tool from what I have seen (which is very limited) there have been millions of hours flown without the need for it, we can't always rely on technology.

You will need thick skin to swim in these waters but I am sure you will be just fine. So loosen up a little and enjoy all POA has to offer!

(Also, a little advice, do not mention AOA indicators and do VERY thorough research before posting any " can I log the time" threads).
 
TRocket said:
Hi John,
For starters, welcome to POA! Interesting first post but nonetheless, welcome!
It is a tough crowd here fore sure so don't take anything personally. I would venture to guess (and could be wrong) that you are on the newer side to aviation. Your posts seem very "by the book" and that is ok! A couple of things, a flight plan does not necessarily equal safety. Flight following = great idea for sure so I agree there but not absolutely necessary. And as for ADS-B, aviation existed for many years before ADS-B. While it is a good tool from what I have seen (which is very limited) there have been millions of hours flown without the need for it, we can't always rely on technology.

You will need thick skin to swim in these waters but I am sure you will be just fine. So loosen up a little and enjoy all POA has to offer!

(Also, a little advice, do not mention AOA indicators and do VERY thorough research before posting any " can I log the time" threads).
Click to expand...
A guy sez he's been flying for 20 some years and you guess that he is on the newer side of aviation? sumting wong here
 
TRocket said:
Hi John,
For starters, welcome to POA! Interesting first post but nonetheless, welcome!
It is a tough crowd here fore sure so don't take anything personally. I would venture to guess (and could be wrong) that you are on the newer side to aviation. Your posts seem very "by the book" and that is ok! A couple of things, a flight plan does not necessarily equal safety. Flight following = great idea for sure so I agree there but not absolutely necessary. And as for ADS-B, aviation existed for many years before ADS-B. While it is a good tool from what I have seen (which is very limited) there have been millions of hours flown without the need for it, we can't always rely on technology.
Click to expand...
Very true, neither flight following nor a flight plan is necessary. Feel free to come out here to the west and feel free to fly around here with neither. You might even discover one of those missing airplanes that have crashed or just disappeared and haven't been found for decades.
 
murphey said:
Very true, neither flight following nor a flight plan is necessary. Feel free to come out here to the west and feel free to fly around here with neither. You might even discover one of those missing airplanes that have crashed or just disappeared and haven't been found for decades.
Click to expand...
And be sure to sit in on the CPA ground school and listen to the consternation when the attendees are told not to ever expect rescue the same day they crash...
 
Clark1961 said:
And be sure to sit in on the CPA ground school and listen to the consternation when the attendees are told not to ever expect rescue the same day they crash...
Click to expand...
And it's not CAP fault, either. Takes time for someone to notice you're not there. LM and the FAA and CAP and the local sheriffs have procedures that take time to get the ball rolling.
 
murphey said:
And it's not CAP fault, either. Takes time for someone to notice you're not there. LM and the FAA and CAP and the local sheriffs have procedures that take time to get the ball rolling.
Click to expand...
Definitely not SAR fault. And from my perspective I do not want folks trying to walk/ride into my location in the dark. It can wait until morning even if it means I bleed out.
 
BillW said:
Your humble bookflyer here again, with one (possibly dumb) question: No ELT? Why not? Doesn't that seem odd?
Click to expand...

There's at least two airplanes I know of lost in the mountains last year. Neither has yet been found. No ELT signal from either. Out here in the west, if a plane goes down in the mountains I think its less than 50% of the time there's an ELT signal out.

There's a LOT of wilderness in them hills all the way from the Divide to the coast. Beautiful and unique flying experience out here, but it takes an activity that is already intolerant of errors and inattention and amplifies that risk.

Two pilot friends of mine disappeared in separate incidents in the 1980s, one in a 182 and the other in a Bonanza. No trace of the wrecks to this day. Figured by now a hunter or climber would have come across something.
 
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How effective are PLBs, assuming they get activated?
Is the technology different from a 496 ELT?
 
G-Man said:
How effective are PLBs, assuming they get activated?
Is the technology different from a 496 ELT?
Click to expand...
PLBs are same as ELTs in terms of frequency and data. Many PLBs have GPS built-in so accuracy has that benefit.
 
G-Man said:
How effective are PLBs, assuming they get activated?
Is the technology different from a 496 ELT?
Click to expand...

Highly effective. Buy an ACR Resqlink+ About the size of one of those small 8oz coke cans. $250ish

I have two, one stays in my flight bag and the other goes on my person on the boat, or friend's boats. I've heard of many first and second hand stories of them being used 50+ miles offshore. If you set one off, the USCG is scrambling a helo.
 
mondtster said:
You and the other locals on the front range may not be able to believe the missteps, but they don't strike me as being uncommon errors to make for someone from out east that hasn't dealt with mountain flying much (and hasn't read about it much). Do we know where this individual was actually from and what kind of flying they normally were doing?
Click to expand...
The lack of belief is in both directions. I've seen many posts here and elsewhere expressing a lack of belief that mountain flying is a different type of flying, requiring, if not completely different knowledge and skills, at least a very different emphasis and application of them.

"I have a very capable airplane so this should be no problem" is an unfortunately common attitude in mountain flying accidents, but is regrettably not limited to flatlanders, so it will at least interesting to hear the rest of the story.
 
Clark1961 said:
And be sure to sit in on the CPA ground school and listen to the consternation when the attendees are told not to ever expect rescue the same day they crash...
Click to expand...

Or in a few cases, even the same decade.
 
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