missing 172 in Utah

korben88

korben88

Line Up and Wait
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Troy
http://fox13now.com/2017/02/26/crews-from-five-utah-counties-search-for-missing-plane/

SOUTHERN UTAH — Search and rescue crews from five counties searched Sunday for a missing airplane carrying a man from Sandy and his two children.

Family members have identified the pilot as Randall Wells, who is the bishop of an LDS Church congregation in Sandy.

Wells’ family tells Fox 13 News the last they heard from Randall was a text message that came in around 10 p.m. Saturday saying he was flying in the Bryce Canyon area on his way back to Salt Lake City....

Rest of the story in the link
 
Sad. Hate hearing news like this, especially when there's children involved. :(
 
Flying "in" Bryce Canyon?

I don't know much about flying around big rocks, but is canyon flying after dark a normal thing or was something else at play here?
 
labbadabba said:
Flying "in" Bryce Canyon?

I don't know much about flying around big rocks, but is canyon flying after dark a normal thing or was something else at play here?
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Am sure it was "near" Bryce canyon in the text and not IN Bryce canyon after dark (i.e. he probably thought he had the altitude correct or he lost an engine).

I fly around mountains in my area at night (returning long XC), but make sure I have over 2000 feet of clearance minimum with the peaks. That clearance minimum also makes it nicer as far as mechanical turbulence off the peaks.
 
danhagan said:
Am sure it was "near" Bryce canyon in the text and not IN Bryce canyon after dark (i.e. he probably thought he had the altitude correct or he lost an engine).

I fly around mountains in my area at night (returning long XC), but make sure I have over 2000 feet of clearance minimum with the peaks. That clearance minimum also makes it nicer as far as mechanical turbulence off the peaks.
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Ah, re-reading it says in around the Bryce Canyon area. Looking at where they lost contact, when the final text came in, and where they found the plane, I'm trying to piece together the timeline.
 
labbadabba said:
Ah, re-reading it says in around the Bryce Canyon area. Looking at where they lost contact, when the final text came in, and where they found the plane, I'm trying to piece together the timeline.
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Sometimes bad things happen even when all pre-flight has been perfect (forecasts aren't always correct).

I once flew the long 12 minutes over to the main airport for night currency with computer Duats and FSS briefs indicating there'd be absolutely no wind or winds light and variable. They were until after the 3rd stop-n-go ... then things got ugly on #4. ON crosswind turn the wind/wave coming over the mountain rolled me to 90* at 600 feet AGL. Flew back to my field and winds were already 40G55 direct crosswind, flew to the next city up the road (40 miles away with calm winds) and landed at 11pm. Went to sleep and flew back at 6am in calm wind. I've had other exciting night flights returning from long XC flights to my home area. We don't get clouds in my area, so altitude is your friend if it gets unforecast windy.
 
geesh, seeing those pics of the kids makes my stomach turn.

Easy to play armchair qb here but dang I'm a flat lander with my local base at a whopping 270 MSL with row crops in every direction. Call me a wimp but I only fly my single during the day. Sucks because night flying is so pleasant.

And, yes I understand this accident may have nothing at all to do with the flight taking place at night.
 
My sister just told me about this story. She used to go to church with the parents of the pilots. Very sad. I've got five kids of my own, and my heart sank when I saw the picture of the two kids in the back of the plane. They are both happy and smiling. The whole reason I wanted to learn to fly was so I could take my family places.
 
Someone who works at the page airport reported on beechtalk that their lineman offered to drive the family to a motel or to let them sleep in the crew room. Pilot decided to press on instead.
 
I left St George at 1:30pm to fly back to So Cal, as the clouds were building and the weather was coming in. The cloud base was about 10 - 12k, but some building at 8k. We made it home in 3 hours, with about a 25 mph head wind... flying at 8.5k, and as we approached the Cajon pass, there was rain to the north and west of the pass,,, clouds building about 5k on the south side of the pass... A few hours after we landed it was closing in fast and hard...

I wanted to be out of Utah before 3pm as I knew it was going down hill weather wise. The storm buildup to the north towards Ceder was evident, and would continue.. sad that this man did not fly safe, night in changing weather is always a gamble. Thanks for posting the info form the FSS specialist... they sure are great to talk to and gather information from. I always fly with Flight Following, and call in an hour before launching to get the latest look... Garmin Pilot weather is a great tool but talking to someone who looks at the data daily is the best information to have on hand...
 
Lowflynjack said:
Removed.
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I see you removed it. I think you can probably quote some of it without attributing it to the original source. The bulk of it was very much worth sharing. Maybe consult the wise and mighty POA Mods...
 
Glenn D said:
I wanted to be out of Utah before 3pm as I knew it was going down hill weather wise. The storm buildup to the north towards Ceder was evident, and would continue.. sad that this man did not fly safe, night in changing weather is always a gamble. Thanks for posting the info form the FSS specialist... they sure are great to talk to and gather information from. I always fly with Flight Following, and call in an hour before launching to get the latest look... Garmin Pilot weather is a great tool but talking to someone who looks at the data daily is the best information to have on hand...
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Is this the 3rd time recently we've had a VMC-IMC accident at night in mountainous terrain with family on board?
 
labbadabba said:
I see you removed it. I think you can probably quote some of it without attributing it to the original source. The bulk of it was very much worth sharing. Maybe consult the wise and mighty POA Mods...
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I was asked to take it down for good reasons. As this is a pending case and there may be lawsuits, etc. I think a revised version will be published eventually. I would say the bulk of it is, use the tools we have to make weather decisions. There are a lot of people who study the weather out there to brief us. If you don't call them, you might be missing information that could save your life.

My personal take on this is don't fly at night when there is weather you or your plane isn't equipped to handle. Don't fly, especially at night, without a proper briefing. I can't imagine the pain of this wife/mother today as she has to deal with the loss of her entire family.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I was asked to take it down for good reasons. As this is a pending case and there may be lawsuits, etc. I think a revised version will be published eventually. I would say the bulk of it is, use the tools we have to make weather decisions. There are a lot of people who study the weather out there to brief us. If you don't call them, you might be missing information that could save your life.

My personal take on this is don't fly at night when there is weather you or your plane isn't equipped to handle. Don't fly, especially at night, without a proper briefing. I can't imagine the pain of this wife/mother today as she has to deal with the loss of her entire family.
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Back in the mid-70s, when I was working on my PPL, I remember reading a statistic that the night VFR fatality rate was 6 times the day VFR rate. No idea where that came from (might have been one of Richard Collins' columns in Flying?), how accurate, or if it still applies today. I recall discussing it with one of my instructors, who said regardless of the statistics his opinion of night VFR was to use it on a smooth,clear evening to go up and see the lights of the city, but cross-country especially over unlighted terrain was asking for trouble.
 
Flown plenty of night local flights, and XCs, excluding my airline days, and it can be done safely. Proper preparation is of course the key. Weather is very important as is everything else required by Part 91 for preflight. Always have an out, divert if need be, and never push your fuel endurance.
 
GRG55 said:
I recall discussing it with one of my instructors, who said regardless of the statistics his opinion of night VFR was to use it on a smooth,clear evening to go up and see the lights of the city, but cross-country especially over unlighted terrain was asking for trouble.
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Night VFR can be as safe as day VFR if the proper preparations are done. I do night VFR trips in mountainous area (not in single engine) but I know what the minimum altitudes I can be at to stay away from the mountain tops. Sounds like that instructor was very low time and thought he was being helpful.
 
Zeldman said:
Night VFR can be as safe as day VFR if the proper preparations are done.
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I have to call foul on this. There's ways to mitigate much of the risk of night flying, but it's not possible to make it as safe as day.
 
denverpilot said:
I have to call foul on this. There's ways to mitigate much of the risk of night flying, but it's not possible to make it as safe as day.
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Ok, I may be a little biased since most of my single engine night flying was done in Alaska where it is still dark at 10am and at 4pm at times, but I flew VFR as much in darkness as I have in daytime. Add overcast skies at night and it can be like flying inside a cow. And yes I did more flight planning during darkness than I did for daytime.

And to be fair the planes I fly now can go above the mountains here in the southwest, but I will still do it VFR if I can. Except for the Rocky Mountains, I always file even in bright blue sunny days.
 
I've flown in mountainous terrain all of my life & know that flying at night is much more risky.

I will not fly in unfamiliar mountainous places at night. Ever. Okay, I will if I'm in a high-performance aircraft that can climb up where the air is thin.

If I fly in the Cascades or mountains I am familiar with there are two hard rules.

1. The weather has to be severe clear & forecast to remain as such.

2. I always fly IFR (I follow roads). I like to have a string of lights below me & population. There's usually a few small airports too.

When you take a flight with more risks you have to do all you can to minimize those risks.

It's all about common sense.
 
luvflyin said:
I read it and it was some very good and important stuff. I wish you would put it back up. You could copy and paste it into a word processor, remove things that identify the author and put it back up.
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The author saw it and asked me to remove it. I agree it was important info and told him as much on the phone this morning. I will ask him if he wants to produce a version that won't put him at risk.
 
Lowflynjack said:
The author saw it and asked me to remove it. I agree it was important info and told him as much on the phone this morning. I will ask him if he wants to produce a version that won't put him at risk.
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Hopefully he can. What he had to say could make a difference to someone someday.
 
luvflyin said:
Hopefully he can. What he had to say could make a difference to someone someday.
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If that's the case then I think there are a lot of people here that would be anxious to read... Count me in. I know it seems morbid to be interested in accidents and what leads up to them. I can only pray that I don't educate anyone with my mistakes. Unfortunately sometimes the only positive (albeit small) that can come from tragedies of this nature is to learn from it and prevent one in the future.
 
That's why a prudent pilot reads about accidents Arkvet. Be surprised what you can learn and apply to your flying, and hopefully learn what not to do.

I think it has helped me in my 41+ years of flying. I was almost obsessed with safety and reading accident reports when I was getting all my certificates and ratings. One of the things you notice that stands out is how many of these accidents come down to common causes, pushing fuel endurance, weather, get-there-it-is etc. to name a few. So discussing accidents respectfully, which I think most POAers do, is very beneficial especially if it makes you think.
 
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arkvet said:
If that's the case then I think there are a lot of people here that would be anxious to read... Count me in. I know it seems morbid to be interested in accidents and what leads up to them. I can only pray that I don't educate anyone with my mistakes. Unfortunately sometimes the only positive (albeit small) that can come from tragedies of this nature is to learn from it and prevent one in the future.
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I've reached out to him to see what he's willing to let me share. If we remove the specifics about this accident, there would still be a lot of good information. Hopefully something soon!
 
The briefer's entire document is sobering and sad, but the part I quoted is just heart rending.

Why do they do it? This man had no business attempting to fly at night in the weather conditions he encountered. He killed his beautiful children, and left his wife a broken hearted widow. She is 22 weeks pregnant. I cannot fathom her loss.

I try not to get emotionally absorbed in these situations. I feel sorrow, but at the same time I want to pound my head on my desk in frustration.

Rest easy, little ones. :(
 
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Is there anybody here who has never run into someone who displays chronic bad judgement in almost ever aspect of their lives? Someone who doesn't recognize or accept responsibility for the consequences of their behaviour? And won't listen to anyone...
 
3393RP said:
I try not to get emotionally absorbed in these situations. I feel sorrow, but at the same time I want to pound my head on my desk in frustration.

Rest easy, little ones. :(
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I just explained to everyone that he asked us to take his email to me down because he's worried about legal issues, and then you quote it... Can you please delete this part of your post?
 
Lowflynjack said:
I just explained to everyone that he asked us to take his email to me down because he's worried about legal issues, and then you quote it... Can you please delete this part of your post?
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Some rocket surgeon has copied your post over to beechtalk and the redboard.
 
Wtf I don't understand people...you'll never take the human element out :( if you got rid of all these stupid pilot error accidents GA would probabaly look pretty safe to outsiders
 
weilke said:
Some rocket surgeon has copied your post over to beechtalk and the redboard.
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Great... I really screwed up on this one. I thought I was sharing good info, but it turned out there was confidential information that was meant for a very small audience.
 
Lowflynjack said:
Great... I really screwed up on this one. I thought I was sharing good info, but it turned out there was confidential information that was meant for a very small audience.
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I fail to see what could be confidential and of consequence. You mentioned a phone call and a text. Someone else mentioned a conversation with a line guy which has to be at least as significant.
 
DesertNomad said:
I fail to see what could be confidential and of consequence. You mentioned a phone call and a text. Someone else mentioned a conversation with a line guy which has to be at least as significant.
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The professional who sent it felt like it was information he wasn't supposed to share and could impact his job. He asked me to take it down, so I agreed. I don't think there was much risk, but it's not my job.
 
Lowflynjack said:
The professional who sent it felt like it was information he wasn't supposed to share and could impact his job. He asked me to take it down, so I agreed. I don't think there was much risk, but it's not my job.
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I feel for you. Completely understand how you probably feel about the information getting out. However, ultimately you didn't write the information or initially share it. If something I typed put my job at risk then I would think twice about typing it. When I read the content I have no doubt that it was intended for a "large audience". That's obvious by how it's written.

Although it doesn't apply directly I often think of and live by Abe's sentiment of, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." and that would apply to the author of the information you posted. The irony is that the author speaks of "ADM" which well... if applied to his concerns would have kept that information 100% confidential (me, myself, I, NTSB, FAA, etc).
 
labbadabba said:
I see you removed it. I think you can probably quote some of it without attributing it to the original source. The bulk of it was very much worth sharing. Maybe consult the wise and mighty POA Mods...
Click to expand...
I'm not quite sure what the situation is here, but if someone posted some account by a third party and the third party asked them to take it down, it's probably a good idea that it stays down. That is my own personal opinion, not necessarily the opinion of the MC. Not sure we have any rule about this. It doesn't seem as if it was a copyright violation, which we do have rules against.

As far as someone copying and pasting to another board, we have no control over that. This is a good reminder that what you post here is visible to anyone who happens upon the POA site. Only members can post, but the public can read.
 
Everskyward said:
I'm not quite sure what the situation is here, but if someone posted some account by a third party and the third party asked them to take it down, it's probably a good idea that it stays down. That is my own personal opinion, not necessarily the opinion of the MC. Not sure we have any rule about this. It doesn't seem as if it was a copyright violation, which we do have rules against.
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Thanks, that is essentially what it comes down to. I posted information I received in an email that I didn't realize was meant to be confidential. I'm positive we'll see the information, which will be good for all pilots, at a later date. As for now, he's asked we don't post it and I'm trying to oblige.
 
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