Missed calls

[Let'sgoflying!]

Ref the "laptop incident":

Some have wondered how long it typically is between atc calls at altitude, so I decided to quantify the calls over a typical flight. On Thursday, it appears we got a call about every 10 minutes or so......and we go slower than your average airliner so they might expect calls more often. See attached log. In any case, if this is representative of the route flown, then a flight of 91 minutes (that's what one news report said, but another said 75 mins today) should expect ~9 handoffs.

If we don't get a handoff in 15 minutes, we start thinking "something's up...they forgot us". In fact I noticed that if we hear dead air for ~120 seconds, people start calling in for radio checks.
I can see no earthly way a person, let alone two, could get 'distracted' in the cockpit for that huge length of time.

My personal conclusion based on this is that 90 minutes of lost comm is either an electronics problem...or the crew is unconscious. (I would have claimed an environmental problem, like yesterday's BA flight in which 6 fainted!)

They were asleep. No laptop issue at all. Bad choice to blame laptops (or anything else).
As an aside, I don't blame them for sleeping. Its a problem for crews these days, and until we can detect that a crewmember is close to nodding off (and allowing them to take a short catnap) it is going to happen again. Hours aloft in a non-physical, soporific environment will do that.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

In any case, if this is representative of the route flown, then a flight of 91 minutes (that's what one news report said, but another said 75 mins today) should expect ~9 handoffs.

Keep in mind the high altitude sectors cover a TAD more real estate.

I can see no earthly way a person, let alone two, could get 'distracted' in the cockpit for that huge length of time.

An hour or 90 minutes IS a long time. However, it is real easy to tune everything out EXCEPT your own flight number. BTDT

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Off topic, but I like that form you use...

 

[wabower]

Back in the day (pre 9-11) I had jump seat credentials (with captain's permission) on several carriers. I was amazed that they ever answered a call, since the flight numbers changed frequently. Us GA folk usually fly the same tail number and become accustomed to hearing our calls. The airline guys play a totally different game.

Keep in mind the high altitude sectors cover a TAD more real estate.



An hour or 90 minutes IS a long time. However, it is real easy to tune everything out EXCEPT your own flight number. BTDT

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Keep in mind the high altitude sectors cover a TAD more real estate.

how high are you talking, Greg? I was at 410!

An hour or 90 minutes IS a long time. However, it is real easy to tune everything out EXCEPT your own flight number. BTDT

yes, but my experience above includes this concept.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Back in the day (pre 9-11) I had jump seat credentials (with captain's permission) on several carriers. I was amazed that they ever answered a call, since the flight numbers changed frequently. Us GA folk usually fly the same tail number and become accustomed to hearing our calls. The airline guys play a totally different game.

United 851, ORD PEK
United 850, PEK ORD

Been doing the same thing for most of the last 5 years. Kind of indelibly etched into my memory.

However, the next two weeks I will be going to Shanghai.

United 835 and 836 respectively. I can hear it right, it just comes out of my mouth wrong.

 

[poadeleted20]

I've been that route with the daily changing call signs we had in the USAF. However, the prefix was usually the same. It didn't take long to get used to perking up one's ears for "VARK" in the 522 TFS, "NICKL" in the 55 TFS, or "TAHOE" in the 77 TFS, even if the two digits behind were different every day. Now, change the digits every flight four times a day, and it does get trickier, but I'm still not convinced that air carrier pilots in this situation should have a big problem. OTOH, I admit that it always takes a couple of days for me to get "wired in" on a new client's plane's call sign, but then the prefix is changing from Grumman to Partenavia to Cessna to Grumman along with changing numbers over a 5-10 day stretch, and I think that's a lot tricker during the first couple of days.

 

[flyersfan31]

Back in the day (pre 9-11) I had jump seat credentials (with captain's permission) on several carriers. I was amazed that they ever answered a call, since the flight numbers changed frequently. Us GA folk usually fly the same tail number and become accustomed to hearing our calls. The airline guys play a totally different game.

I think the same thing every time I hear an airline call. Greg, you've got it (sort of) easy, but I wonder if the JetBlue or SWA jocks have such consistent routings.

 

[flyersfan31]

I still sometimes make the calls with 63U or 36TP. That only happens in my plane though. If I'm flying something different, i usually mess up and say 5CM, uh no, Skyhawk 9PD (or whatever).

 

[Everskyward]

how high are you talking, Greg? I was at 410!

It also depends on where you are. I think that in some areas of the country the sectors tend to be bigger. Also at certain times of the day (night) when there is less traffic the sectors are combined so it could be quite a while before you get a handoff. I've gotta say though that I've never logged the different frequencies or the handoffs so I can't say how long it normally is between frequency changes.

 

[Everskyward]

There was a time when I flew quite a few N-numbers and I didn't have that much problem recognizing when I heard the number of the airplane I was flying. Sometimes I had the opposite problem, though, and would have the urge to reply when I heard ATC call one of the other airplanes I normally flew. I would also sometimes stumble over the type of airplane in the call sign.

 

[Ghery]

Four planes in the club. I do have to look at the sign on the panel to remind myself which one to use if I'm bouncing around between them. Hasn't bee much of an issue lately, though.

Greg, sorry you're doing the ORD to China runs. Would be fun to hear you're in the cockpit when I'm riding SEA-NRT.

 

[Ted]

The main thing that happens to me these days is I'll get into a plane different from my own and accidentally say "Azte- err- Archer" or the like.

When I was flying different planes on a regular basis, though, I had an easier time of it since I was used to the changing tail numbers.

 

[twdeckard]

A question for Greg/or any ATC lurkers. When MSP center couldn't raise them and assumed they were still tuned to DEN they tried to relay thru other aircraft. Can they call the airline and ask for an ACARS message?

Likely the radio relay is the easiest to arrange from between the headphones but is there a mechanism to call the airline dispatch?

If you do get a text message does it ding?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

A question for Greg/or any ATC lurkers. When MSP center couldn't raise them and assumed they were still tuned to DEN they tried to relay thru other aircraft. Can they call the airline and ask for an ACARS message?

If you do get a text message does it ding?

What typically happens is ATC will ask another company airplane on the frequency to get a hold of the company to try to get a hold of the plane in question. Did that make sense?

Some ACARS messages chime, some don't. Messages that come from the company do not chime. They used to ALL the time. It was rather annoying. But one has to wonder...

 

[Teller1900]

United 851, ORD PEK
United 850, PEK ORD

Been doing the same thing for most of the last 5 years. Kind of indelibly etched into my memory.

However, the next two weeks I will be going to Shanghai.

United 835 and 836 respectively. I can hear it right, it just comes out of my mouth wrong.

I know the feeling well.

3229, 3226, 3203, 3202, 3231, 3447, 3286, 3421, 3264, 3237, 3238, 3241

That's my series for four days of work. When I hit that 3400 series, I'm screwed. Never mind the fact that there are 13 other planes flying around at the same time with very similar callsigns; it's very easy to miss calls, take calls for someone else, or massivly screw up your own callsign.

Back in the day (pre 9-11) I had jump seat credentials (with captain's permission) on several carriers. I was amazed that they ever answered a call, since the flight numbers changed frequently. Us GA folk usually fly the same tail number and become accustomed to hearing our calls. The airline guys play a totally different game.

I still sometimes make the calls with 63U or 36TP. That only happens in my plane though. If I'm flying something different, i usually mess up and say 5CM, uh no, Skyhawk 9PD (or whatever).

About six months ago I flew a GA plane for the first time in a little over two years. I took my dad from Chesapeake to Norfolk. ORF approach called 4MS, I'd guess at least three times, before I realized I wasn't listening for my airline's name or a 3200 number. It wasn't until they said "Diamond 654MS" that it caught my attention.

A question for Greg/or any ATC lurkers. When MSP center couldn't raise them and assumed they were still tuned to DEN they tried to relay thru other aircraft. Can they call the airline and ask for an ACARS message?

Likely the radio relay is the easiest to arrange from between the headphones but is there a mechanism to call the airline dispatch?

If you do get a text message does it ding?

Yes they can. The computer has the contact number for our SOC associated with our flight plan, so the supervisor can call them if need be.

Some ACARS make noise, some don't. Just depends upon the plane. It's not even necessarily type specific; some of our planes chime when we get a message, and some don't. If it does chime, it'll catch your attention pretty much no matter what, and there's no way to turn it down. If it doesn't, though, you have to be pretty hyper-attentive to see the small flashing "msg" on the FMS box. If you're not expecting a message and you never look at the ACARS, it's pretty easy to miss an email.

 

[gismo]

A question for Greg/or any ATC lurkers. When MSP center couldn't raise them and assumed they were still tuned to DEN they tried to relay thru other aircraft. Can they call the airline and ask for an ACARS message?

Likely the radio relay is the easiest to arrange from between the headphones but is there a mechanism to call the airline dispatch?

If you do get a text message does it ding?

From what I've heard, the NW pilots did get a series of ACARS messages and ignored them as well. I don't know if this was the result of a call to dispatch from ATC but I think so. Also I was told that there's no "ding" in an Airbus when an ACARS message comes in.

You'd think that when Mode S transponder requirements were being spec'd, someone would have thought to include some means of waking up the pilots via the discrete uplink they have.

 

[poadeleted20]

You'd think that when Mode S transponder requirements were being spec'd, someone would have thought to include some means of waking up the pilots via the discrete uplink they have.

I was talking about this with a former ATA captain who keeps his Luscombe in the hangar next to mine. He said that on long trips (especially at night), he sets an alarm for 30 minutes prior to planned approach time -- just in case.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

A question for Greg

Todd, I "posted" a response earlier today. I guess I got in a hurry and didn't hit "enter". Anyway, the question has pretty much been answered.

 

[Clark1961]

Todd, I "posted" a response earlier today. I guess I got in a hurry and didn't hit "enter". Anyway, the question has pretty much been answered.

So, were you working on your laptop and "just lost focus"????

 

[Greg Bockelman]

So, were you working on your laptop and "just lost focus"????

I will from this point forward ignore all such posts aimed at me.

 

[121Dispatch]

A question for Greg/or any ATC lurkers. When MSP center couldn't raise them and assumed they were still tuned to DEN they tried to relay thru other aircraft. Can they call the airline and ask for an ACARS message?

Likely the radio relay is the easiest to arrange from between the headphones but is there a mechanism to call the airline dispatch?

If you do get a text message does it ding?

Yep. We would get a few calls a month from Center asking if we could get in touch with flight xxx, and have them come up on whatever the handoff freq was.

 

[twdeckard]

Todd, I "posted" a response earlier today. I guess I got in a hurry and didn't hit "enter". Anyway, the question has pretty much been answered.

Actually Greg, I did read your post. It appeared twice and then it vanished. I assume you had retracted it for some reason.

Gremlins in the board software?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Actually Greg, I did read your post. It appeared twice and then it vanished. I assume you had retracted it for some reason.

Gremlins in the board software?

Hmm, Interesting. I didn't pull it. Wonder what happened to it.

 

[poadeleted20]

Hmm, Interesting. I didn't pull it. Wonder what happened to it.

Greg double-posted. I deleted the first, and he must have deleted the second. Fixing...fixed.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Hmm, Interesting. I didn't pull it. Wonder what happened to it.

Did you attempt to circumvent the profanity filter?

 

[Mtns2Skies]

Maybe its just because I'm used to switching tail #'s every flight considering I fly out of a busy flight school, but I never have issues with tail number... though when changing plane types Ill screw up big when transmitting, "152... Skyhawk... Cherokee/Arrow" Maybe If I recite all aircraft I'll get it right eventually

 

[Clark1961]

Maybe its just because I'm used to switching tail #'s every flight considering I fly out of a busy flight school, but I never have issues with tail number... though when changing plane types Ill screw up big when transmitting, "152... Skyhawk... Cherokee/Arrow" Maybe If I recite all aircraft I'll get it right eventually

That's easy, just use "November". That way if anyone wants to know the type, they'll ask and you've got a moment to look around and say "oh yeah, I'm in the 'kee today." As for the 152 vs Skyhawk call, it's just another Cezzna.

 

[Everskyward]

Some ACARS messages chime, some don't. Messages that come from the company do not chime. They used to ALL the time. It was rather annoying. But one has to wonder...

I've got another question about chimes in the Airbus. We get a DING and a amber caution light and message when we are in NAV and overfly the last point in the flight plan. Does this happen in the Airbus too? It seems like you would notice that even if engrossed in laptop use. Of course that would be a little late to be noticing but at least you wouldn't go past the last point by 150 miles.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

I've got another question about chimes in the Airbus. We get a DING and a amber caution light and message when we are in NAV and overfly the last point in the flight plan. Does this happen in the Airbus too?

That is a real good question. I have never done it and don't know the answer to that.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

It also depends on where you are. I think that in some areas of the country the sectors tend to be bigger.

Good suggestion. I had to check it out. I count around 8 or 9 sectors for the entire trip. (yes the sectors don't line up perfectly, but it doesn't change much if anything)
600nm plus 150 beyond msp if I have correct info. How long were they nordo? One report says 91 minutes....which seems like the entire flight. In any case it looks like a similar rate of sector passage as I noted in my first post. So I persist with my theory that they were not playing with laptops. My suggestion is they were asleep. Once again, I do not judge the pilots harshly for being asleep. It will happen again.
Do you guys agree or disagree with my theory and if not, why?

 

[rottydaddy]

I was talking about this with a former ATA captain who keeps his Luscombe in the hangar next to mine. He said that on long trips (especially at night), he sets an alarm for 30 minutes prior to planned approach time -- just in case.

Aha! A variation on the "clock" part of "compass, clock, chart".
So simple. Falling asleep I can understand; not covering your butt with something as simple as an alarm I just don't get.

 

[rottydaddy]

I've got another question about chimes in the Airbus. We get a DING and a amber caution light and message when we are in NAV and overfly the last point in the flight plan. Does this happen in the Airbus too?

It seems hard to believe that it wouldn't... but maybe it varies like the ACARS alerts; it may not be considered necessary, so it doesn't always work.
Whatever the case, if that plane didn't have this feature available, it would have been a no-brainer to program some kind of alarm, even on a wristwatch.

 

[Everskyward]

Falling asleep I can understand; not covering your butt with something as simple as an alarm I just don't get.

I'm guessing they weren't planning to fall asleep on that particular flight if that is what they did, but...

Do you guys agree or disagree with my theory and if not, why?

I'm going vote to disagree because I'm having a hard time believing that two people would sleep that soundly for over an hour, maybe 15-20 minutes but not an hour in the early evening. Plus, why would you use the stupid excuse that you missed the entire descent, and then some, because you were looking at your laptops and discussing company scheduling policy if it wasn't the truth? That sounds a lot worse than falling asleep. Personally I think a lot of things sound a bit implausible and I don't think we have the whole story.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

why would you use the stupid excuse that you missed the entire descent, and then some, because you were looking at your laptops

ha, ha. My theory on that is 'because they were sleepy-headed at the time!'
Thanks for your response.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Do you guys agree or disagree with my theory and if not, why?

If it were a Red Eye flight getting in at 7:30 AM, I MIGHT buy off on that. But one that left at 2 PM Pacific time after a 19 hour layover? Both pilots? Possible, not probable. Laptops? Plausible, I suppose. But I am now in the camp that we don't really know WHAT was happening. I am reasonably sure there is more to the story than we have been told.

 

[poadeleted20]

If it were a Red Eye flight getting in at 7:30 AM, I MIGHT buy off on that. But one that left at 2 PM Pacific time after a 19 hour layover? Both pilots? Possible, not probable. Laptops? Plausible, I suppose. But I am now in the camp that we don't really know WHAT was happening. I am reasonably sure there is more to the story than we have been told.

The FAA and NTSB seem to have accepted the pilots' story about the laptops. In this situation, it doesn't make sense to lie about something when the false story will cost you your pilot certificate and your job unless what you were actually doing was worse. What could that be? Not falling asleep, I should think, as nobody's been hammered worse for that than they were for the laptop story (unless they were under the mistaken impression that the laptop story would be greeted with less punishment than falling asleep). At this point, unless someone expends the effort to retrieve the overwritten data from the CVR, or one of the two pilots decides to tell all (which would definitely open the door to criminal charges), it's not likely we'll ever know if they were doing something worse.

 

[gismo]

The FAA and NTSB seem to have accepted the pilots' story about the laptops. In this situation, it doesn't make sense to lie about something when the false story will cost you your pilot certificate and your job unless what you were actually doing was worse. What could that be? Not falling asleep, I should think, as nobody's been hammered worse for that than they were for the laptop story (unless they were under the mistaken impression that the laptop story would be greeted with less punishment than falling asleep). At this point, unless someone expends the effort to retrieve the overwritten data from the CVR, or one of the two pilots decides to tell all (which would definitely open the door to criminal charges), it's not likely we'll ever know if they were doing something worse.

I'm inclined to buy the laptop story for the reasons you stated in addition to the explanation from my neighbor who's been complaining about the time he's had to spend on his computer learning the new dispatch/bidding system being put in place. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that there are significant numbers of NWA/Delta pilots who've been spending considerable time discussing that system verbally in their airline cockpits during flights. Chances are the two pilots in this incident had concluded that since it was a work related issue, the use of their laptops during flight was marginally acceptable (I'm not saying I think it was OK, just that I can see how they might have come to that conclusion). I also suspect that these two aren't the only ones working on their bidding system training during flight, just the first (and hopefully last) ones to screw up because of it.

 

[poadeleted20]

Chances are the two pilots in this incident had concluded that since it was a work related issue, the use of their laptops during flight was marginally acceptable (I'm not saying I think it was OK, just that I can see how they might have come to that conclusion).

If so, then why did they omit that bit of information in their initial reports, and only admit it when their feet were held to the fire? For them to have been so unforthcoming, I suspect they knew it was unacceptable.

 

[SCCutler]

If so, then why did they omit that bit of information in their initial reports, and only admit it when their feet were held to the fire? For them to have been so unforthcoming, I suspect they knew it was unacceptable.

I can see it simply being that they were both so professionally embarrassed that they could not conceive a rational explanation. A lifetime of safe and professional work, shot down in one painful afternoon.