Minimum XC PIC time before starting Instrument training

1200AGL

1200AGL

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Esteemed CFIIs: what is the minimum cross-country PIC time that you prefer a student to have before beginning instrument training?

Right now I have only 15 hours XC PIC. I realize that I need at least 50 before taking the instrument practical test. I'll soon have the time available to fly several times per week, and I'm trying to decide if it makes sense to take the leap.

I'd get the written test out of the way first. I've started reading the Instrument Flying Handbook and I read Weather Flying a while ago. I was given Instrument Flying and Flying IFR but haven't gotten to them, yet.
 
1200AGL said:
Esteemed CFIIs: what is the minimum cross-country PIC time that you prefer a student to have before beginning instrument training?
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PIC's general policy is at least 45, but we've made exceptions when the trainee and instructor agree on the necessary limitations it will impose on the training in our intensive training program.

The other aspect is that XC flying builds experience and confidence which make the IR training easier, especially going different places and talking on the radios. For example, one of the particular skills necessary is being able to look up a mile and a half from an unfamiliar airport, finding it among whatever is around it, picking out the desired runway, and lining yourself up with it. That's a skill you don't develop flying around only in the local area to the same airports all the time.

That said, there is no real reason you can't build XC PIC time during IR training, but the instructor has to construct the syllabus and training plan accordingly, and it will result in longer training flights, which could impact someone trying to do it an hour here and an hour there.
 
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I had about 30 when I started and we did about 20hrs of XC. When I took the IR checkride I had 50.0PIC XC time. Timed that perfect. Didn't know what the number was till we added it up and got lucky I wasn't short point one.
 
If you're a renter, what is a reasonable budget to allot for IR training once enough XC time is in place like EdFred mentions? Local FBO offers C172S's at $145/hr wet, instructor at $45/hr and uses the Cessna Pilot Center program.
 
AggieMike88 said:
If you're a renter, what is a reasonable budget to allot for IR training once enough XC time is in place like EdFred mentions? Local FBO offers C172S's at $145/hr wet, instructor at $45/hr and uses the Cessna Pilot Center program.
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Sounds about right. Stings a bit though..... When i started flying about 5 years ago, I was paying $95/hr wet for a Piper Warrior and $25/hr instruction

Not sure how to allocate that budget. I'm just trying to allocate the time.
 
AggieMike88 said:
If you're a renter, what is a reasonable budget to allot for IR training once enough XC time is in place like EdFred mentions? Local FBO offers C172S's at $145/hr wet, instructor at $45/hr and uses the Cessna Pilot Center program.
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As far as cost savings, do not forget that a large portion of the dual can be done in a sim and half the total can be done without an instructor. Not particularly recommending you go the cheapest route just that you can save some money. For myself, although I have some sim time, I don't like sims even though there are supposed advantages in number of approaches per hour, etc. I would rather do less approaches but do them in a real airplane. I do like to go up with a safety pilot and practice without an instructor, though. I like to do something many more times over than an instructor has the patience for :wink2:
 
This is dumb, but during instrument training, does it matter what the weather is like? In other words, if it's actually IFR conditions would we go up, or is it like PPL training where you don't go up unless it's nice.
 
HerrGruyere said:
This is dumb, but during instrument training, does it matter what the weather is like? In other words, if it's actually IFR conditions would we go up, or is it like PPL training where you don't go up unless it's nice.
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It is best if it is actual IFR IMC. Obviously you do not want to mess with icing or convective activity but definitely nice to get in clouds. You also get to log actual IFR as opposed to simulated.
 
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My CFI wants me to have 45 so that I have no chance of having to break off in the middle of training to build XC time. I'm at 35 and have a trip coming up as soon as weather allows that will get me close enough to satisfy him.
 
MBDiagMan said:
My CFI wants me to have 45 so that I have no chance of having to break off in the middle of training to build XC time. I'm at 35 and have a trip coming up as soon as weather allows that will get me close enough to satisfy him.
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Why can't some of the 45 be XC? Also, does he want dual for all 45 hours?
 
alfadog said:
Why can't some of the 45 be XC? Also, does he want dual for all 45 hours?
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I think he meant his instructor wants him to have 45xc before they start. I did dual with Satan for my whole 40 hrs, I learned a lot every hour and I still didn't feel I knew enough when I passed my ride.
 
Henning said:
I think he meant his instructor wants him to have 45xc before they start. I did dual with Satan for my whole 40 hrs, I learned a lot every hour and I still didn't feel I knew enough when I passed my ride.
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Yah, I think you are right.
 
MBDiagMan said:
My CFI wants me to have 45 so that I have no chance of having to break off in the middle of training to build XC time. I'm at 35 and have a trip coming up as soon as weather allows that will get me close enough to satisfy him.
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That sounds a bit extreme to me. Are you doing some sort of 7-day or 10-day accelerated course?
 
Ron Levy said:
PIC's general policy is at least 45, but we've made exceptions [...]
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Henning said:
Pretty much of the 40hrs of my IR were done XC.
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EdFred said:
I had about 30 when I started and we did about 20hrs of XC.
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MBDiagMan said:
My CFI wants me to have 45 so that I have no chance of having to break off in the middle of training to build XC time.
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Thanks everyone. It is clear that I need to make make a few cross country trips beforehand. That time will count toward fulfilling the 61.69 requirements to tow gliders (another goal of mine; 100 hrs ASEL PIC req'd), so it makes sense to get cracking.
 
1200AGL said:
Thanks everyone. It is clear that I need to make make a few cross country trips beforehand. That time will count toward fulfilling the 61.69 requirements to tow gliders (another goal of mine; 100 hrs ASEL PIC req'd), so it makes sense to get cracking.
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When in doubt, fly more :):yesnod:
 
1200AGL said:
Thanks everyone. It is clear that I need to make make a few cross country trips beforehand. That time will count toward fulfilling the 61.69 requirements to tow gliders (another goal of mine; 100 hrs ASEL PIC req'd), so it makes sense to get cracking.
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Yep, might as well then. BTW, when I did my IR there was a TT minimum of 125hrs.
 
AggieMike88 said:
If you're a renter, what is a reasonable budget to allot for IR training once enough XC time is in place like EdFred mentions? Local FBO offers C172S's at $145/hr wet, instructor at $45/hr and uses the Cessna Pilot Center program.
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Owwwwwch, I about 30hrs of my XC time in a Cessna 152 paying dry tach time so I would fly around everywhere at 2100RPM with the engine leaned way out, it worked out to be about $55/tach hour. I would flight plan for about 80 knots. :) It wasn't even that long ago, 2010! Unfortunately that deal isn't around anymore and the rest of my XC time was built in a $70/hobbs hr. 152 that would do about 100kt. at full rental power. :yikes:

Find a 152!
 
I spent $5800 for my IR flying my airplane. I used my CFII for more than the required time and couldn't tell you right now how many hours it was once I started until my ride. I had all of my x-country time when I started. I also made three or four flights with a safety pilot toward the end.
 
alfadog said:
Not sure I like this part but the rest is fine. By "leaned way out" I hope you meant rich of peak.
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Why? Cessna's recommended leaning technique of pulling back till rough then adding to smooth leaves one lean of peak. At 2100rpm flying around, he cannot damage the engine with detonation, the risk of lean, but he sure can foul plugs and wash out the rings from being too rich.
 
alfadog said:
Not sure I like this part but the rest is fine. By "leaned way out" I hope you meant rich of peak.
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What's wrong with leaning? Normally Aspirated you aren't going to do any damage at less than 75%
 
Henning said:
pulling back till rough then adding to smooth
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This is what I mean. Can you show me something that says that is LOP? By "way lean" I wonder if he "put up with" a bit of roughness to save fuel.
 
EdFred said:
What's wrong with leaning? Normally Aspirated you aren't going to do any damage at less than 75%
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So I can lean it as much as I want as long as the engine doesn't quit entirely?
 
alfadog said:
This is what I mean. Can you show me something that says that is LOP? By "way lean" I wonder if he "put up with" a bit of roughness to save fuel.
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Only by watching it happen on EGT. At 2100 rpm, you don't get too much roughness leaning out as you aren't making a lot of power to create the imbalance, it also dies pretty damned quickly.
 
alfadog said:
So I can lean it as much as I want as long as the engine doesn't quit entirely?
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As long as you are below 65% power, there is no way to catastrophically damage the engine with the mixture. Even above that there is still much you can do without getting in trouble. Leaving it too rich however will cost you a set of rings faster.
 
Henning said:
As long as you are below 65% power, there is no way to catastrophically damage the engine with the mixture. Even above that there is still much you can do without getting in trouble. Leaving it too rich however will cost you a set of rings faster.
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I do find some support for this, at least for the Cont 0-300, but not for your other re LOP:

From a Cessna forum.

"As has been said, lean the mixture until there is a slight RPM loss, then enrich to smoothness. I had an EGT on my 170, and this technique always led to 25 degrees rich of peak. You can't hurt the engine leaning below 65% power, no matter how aggressive according to the small Continental experts. If you lean during taxi do it so the engine will barely run above 1,200 RPM or so, inc case you forget it for take-off"
 
alfadog said:
It is best if it is actual IFR IMC. Obviously you do not want to mess with icing or convective activity but definitely nice to get in clouds. You also get to log actual IFR as opposed to simulated.
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That's good, at least. There's always tons of fog at KFDK these days. I'm not starting my instrument training yet; however, all this stuff about minimum XC has got me a bit worried. I think under 141, though, aren't some of the time requirements waived? I don't mind flying more - in fact, I'll fly any chance I can get! My instructor said that she went right into her instrument training after her private and indicated that I should be able to do the same.
 
HerrGruyere said:
That's good, at least. There's always tons of fog at KFDK these days. I'm not starting my instrument training yet; however, all this stuff about minimum XC has got me a bit worried. I think under 141, though, aren't some of the time requirements waived? I don't mind flying more - in fact, I'll fly any chance I can get! My instructor said that she went right into her instrument training after her private and indicated that I should be able to do the same.
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Just 5 hours less under 141, I think. I think you should get some hours under your belt before starting the IR, IMHO.
 
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HerrGruyere said:
That's what I'd like to do.
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You should be a point where you are totally comfortable flying VFR and where your landings are consistent. Depending on how you are taught to configure the airplane, remember that on an ILS approach, you will be at 200' and have to slow down some and add flaps to land, you are not in landing configuration when you take the hood off. That is not the time to learn to land consistently.
 
AggieMike88 said:
If you're a renter, what is a reasonable budget to allot for IR training once enough XC time is in place like EdFred mentions? Local FBO offers C172S's at $145/hr wet, instructor at $45/hr and uses the Cessna Pilot Center program.
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Depends a lot on how much instrument time you have going in, and whether or not they use a sim as well as airplanes.
 
HerrGruyere said:
This is dumb, but during instrument training, does it matter what the weather is like? In other words, if it's actually IFR conditions would we go up, or is it like PPL training where you don't go up unless it's nice.
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Depends on the instructor. With highly experienced professionals, you're likely to go up in any weather that's safely flyable. OTOH, experience suggests that a lot of the low-time 300-hour flight school types with no significant weather flying experience don't like going up in actual weather other than on the long XC. We at PIC average 5000 hours flight time on hire, and we tend to fly in the weather as long as there's no issues with ice, thunderstorms, excessive turbulence (interferes with training), or getting back into the home base (I don't go if it isn't at least 200 feet and 1 mile above mins).
 
AggieMike88 said:
If you're a renter, what is a reasonable budget to allot for IR training once enough XC time is in place like EdFred mentions? Local FBO offers C172S's at $145/hr wet, instructor at $45/hr and uses the Cessna Pilot Center program.
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Assuming they have some sim available, perhaps:

15 @ $100 for dual sim
15 @ $190 dual
20 @ $145 w/safety pilot

What is that? $7250?

That is prolly a conservative figure assuming you are a somewhat apt student. Can be done for less, can take more.
 
alfadog said:
This is what I mean. Can you show me something that says that is LOP?
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On a carbureted engine, "lean to rough then enrich to smooth" is right about peak EGT, not LOP. I've checked that on a lot of airplanes with engine analyzers.
 
Ron Levy said:
On a carbureted engine, "lean to rough then enrich to smooth" is right about peak EGT, not LOP. I've checked that on a lot of airplanes with engine analyzers.
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Yes, it is peak or, more likely, a bit ROP is what I am discovering.
 
HerrGruyere said:
That's good, at least. There's always tons of fog at KFDK these days. I'm not starting my instrument training yet; however, all this stuff about minimum XC has got me a bit worried.
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It shouldn't worry you. These recommendations are based on experience giving instrument training, and the conclusion that the training goes better if you have more XC PIC time.

I think under 141, though, aren't some of the time requirements waived?
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There is no XC PIC requirement to enroll in a Part 141 IR program, just a PP certificate. However, a 141 IR program must be a minimum of 35 hours of instrument training. Some of that can be in a sim, but it all must be with an instructor -- no practice time with a non-instructor safety pilot.

My instructor said that she went right into her instrument training after her private and indicated that I should be able to do the same.
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You certainly can do that, but my experience suggests that other than in a full-time professional training program, you'll do better with some seasoning first -- go fly different places, work with ATC, etc. Once you're comfortable doing that, then start your IR training.
 
alfadog said:
So I can lean it as much as I want as long as the engine doesn't quit entirely?
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Above 5000 feet or so I firewall the throttle in the 152 and lean back to about 2250rpm. Leaves a nice light tan color on the exhaust, burns about 5gph and 95-100kts TAS. I can lean back to about 2150 before it gets rough with the throttle open like that.

FYI the manual recommends (for best economy) you set the throttle to 75% power and then lean till it drops 25-50 rpm.

On most GA airplanes you can lean as much as you want under 75% power and not hurt anything.

I had about 20 hours XC when I started my instrument training. I took it slow in the beginning (though at the end I was doing 2-3x per week) and finished with 75 hrs x/c and exactly 40 hours instrument time.
 
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