Milky Way Galaxy question

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flhrci

flhrci

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So, I have always wondered this while watching space type shows. Is the galaxy and might as well say the universe to, in a flat plane of existence or are there stars/planets above and below in relation to the Earth? The usual renderings of the Milky Way make it appear to be a relatively flat plane . (Aviation content: I used the word plane twice. :) )
 
flhrci said:
So, I have always wondered this while watching space type shows. Is the galaxy and might as well say the universe to, in a flat plane of existence or are there stars/planets above and below in relation to the Earth? The usual renderings of the Milky Way make it appear to be a relatively flat plane . (Aviation content: I used the word plane twice. :) )
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If it were in a plain, roughly the thickness of the Milky Way (10,000 light years??), we could probably see the edge of the universe. So, i would say the universe is expanding in ALL directions.
 
Kritchlow said:
If it were in a plain, roughly the thickness of the Milky Way (10,000 light years??), we could probably see the edge of the universe. So, i would say the universe is expanding in ALL directions.
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I was thinking that but it is a little hard to wrap my head around I guess. When looking up at the night sky it seems like there are stars all around. I guess I have the hardest time trying to figure out how the fictional Star Trek ships would navigate.
 
Kritchlow said:
If it were in a plain, roughly the thickness of the Milky Way (10,000 light years??), we could probably see the edge of the universe. So, i would say the universe is expanding in ALL directions.
Click to expand...
This is correct, it's expanding in all directions.

Sent from my SM-T720 using Tapatalk
 
flhrci said:
So, I have always wondered this while watching space type shows. Is the galaxy and might as well say the universe to, in a flat plane of existence or are there stars/planets above and below in relation to the Earth? The usual renderings of the Milky Way make it appear to be a relatively flat plane . (Aviation content: I used the word plane twice. :) )
Click to expand...
No need for token aviation content. Unlike the AOPA Forum, Pilots of America discussions are not required to be aviation related, especially here in the Hangar Talk section. Note the following at the top of the Hangar Talk page:

Open forum for discussion of any topic you like, aviation related or otherwise.

Virtually all topics in this forum are permitted - so long as they are discussed in a civil manner.

NOTE: Politics and religion and any other topic likely to become highly charged are not allowed, and threads may be deleted or closed if they start or trend, respectively, towards "spin" topics.​
 
The Moon does not rotate the Earth along the same plane in which the Earth orbits the Sun. Not all planets in our solar system are in the exact same plane, nor do they exhibit the same axes of rotation. Up, down, above, beside... all are references to the earthly existence we know. There are many different galaxies which have been observed to rotate on innumerable different planes from the Milky Way.

https://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hubble/multimedia/index.html
 
The galaxy is flatish relative to the rest of the universe but still very much 3 dimensional. The universe is expanding in all directions but at the same time not. Think of it as where is the center of the surface of a sphere? Every place is the center there is no edge.

It is very tough to imagine a 4 dimensional sphere but that is sort of how you have to picture the universe from the outside and how it is expanding. But think of us as being in the universe as on the surface of an ever-expanding balloon over the surface of that balloon. But that surface is not two dimensions but three dimensions.

The Milky Way however is not expanding. We are actually getting closer to some other galaxies or they are getting closer to us in the local group. But eventually those will all coalesce and the expansion of the universe will get so big that we will not be able to see anything outside of our local group. But the time frame of that happening the sun will expand the Earth will burn up and the sun will dim long long before that happens.
 
Daniel L said:
This is correct, it's expanding in all directions.
Click to expand...

If the Universe is always expanding, what is it expanding into? A solid wall? More space? It has to expand into something...
 
While I remember someone painting a Ford galaxy black, put a bunch of stars and planets, and clear coated over a milky way candy bar wrapper many years ago.
 
Brad Smith said:
If the Universe is always expanding, what is it expanding into? A solid wall? More space? It has to expand into something...
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Not if you think in 4 physical dimensions (time excluded) which is near impossible if not impossible to do for the human brain since we have no point of reference for a 4th physical dimension.
 
Brad Smith said:
If the Universe is always expanding, what is it expanding into? A solid wall? More space? It has to expand into something...
Click to expand...
If the Big Bang Theory is correct, I don't think there would be any way to make an observation that would answer that question. If the universe currently has an "edge," there would be no way to observe it. The reason is that due to the speed of light being finite, the farther away we look, the further back in time we're looking. Thus, the length of time since the Big Bang would limit how far out we can see.
 
Palmpilot said:
If the Big Bang Theory is correct, I don't think there would be any way to make an observation that would answer that question. If the universe currently has an "edge," there would be no way to observe it. The reason is that due to the speed of light being finite, the farther away we look, the further back in time we're looking. Thus, the length of time since the Big Bang would limit how far out we can see.
Click to expand...

So basically, scientists are just guessing. Got it.
 
I love Milky Ways, ever tried a frozen one..??

But due to weight loss program I am off candy now...:sigh:
 
Michio Kaku's "Hyperspace" is a fascinating read, although Hawking's "A Brief History of Time" is a bit more accessible for those truly fascinated by this stuff but just getting started. For those interested more in backyard astronomy rather than cosmological theory, Terence Dickinson and Alan Dyer's "The Backyard Astronomer's guide" is an excellent beginning resource. Our galaxy is relatively flat, sort of like an egg fried over-easy. The "Milky Way" is what we see when looking out through the densest, longest parts ...the "whites" of the fried egg, although we are not at the center or "yolk" part... or towards the center. Our galaxy is a spiral with two main arms emanating from an encircling the center, and each arm is divided into several segments. Our sun, and therefore our solar system and Earth, are located on the inner, or "Orion," arm about 1/3 of the way from the enter towards the outer reaches of our galaxy.
 
Palmpilot said:
If the Big Bang Theory is correct, I don't think there would be any way to make an observation that would answer that question.
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Not to derail the topic in question, but the Big Bang Theory cannot be correct. If you think for such an event to occur, that just so happens to place our Earth at the exact spot in the solar system for human life to exist, a sun that is the right distance away from the earth, and all other outcomes that took place - the odds of such a thing are so incredibly small and science can’t explain that, not to mention the fact that nothing remotely similar has happened a second time. It’s a good fable, but it’s most certainly false.
 
Ryanb said:
Not to derail the topic in question, but the Big Bang Theory cannot be correct. If you think for such an event to occur, that just so happens to place our Earth at the exact spot in the solar system for human life to exist, a sun that is the right distance away from the earth, and all other outcomes that took place - the odds of such a thing are so incredibly small and science can’t explain that, not to mention that nothing remotely similar has happened a second time. It’s a good fable, but it’s most certainly false.
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I don't get it, how does the location of and the distance between the Earth and Sun disprove the Big Bang Theory?
 
dmspilot said:
I don't get it, how does the location of and the distance between the Earth and Sun disprove the Big Bang Theory?
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Read the post again. The odds of an ‘explosion’ occurring, which places everything in our galaxy in just the right spot for life to happen solely by mere chance is sooo incredibly small.

I could go on to explain various laws of physics that such an event would break, but I don’t believe it’s worth the effort. I’ve studied this topic quite a bit during my time in undergrad, and many of the proposed ideas just don’t add up. As I said, it’s a good fable, but that’s about it.
 
Ryanb said:
Read the post again. The odds of an ‘explosion’ occurring, which places everything in our galaxy in just the right spot for life to happen solely by mere chance is sooo incredibly small.
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I can read the post 100 times and it won't make any more sense than it did the first time. The Big Bang Theory has nothing to do with explaining how life occurs. Life occuring does not disprove the big bang theory, they are not even related.
 
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Palmpilot said:
If the Big Bang Theory is correct, I don't think there would be any way to make an observation that would answer that question. If the universe currently has an "edge," there would be no way to observe it. The reason is that due to the speed of light being finite, the farther away we look, the further back in time we're looking. Thus, the length of time since the Big Bang would limit how far out we can see.
Click to expand...
Yes, seriously mind-blowing stuff. The cosmic microwave background radiation CMBR is an ancient relic of the big bank, we are effectively seeing part of the big bang visavie the cmbr
 
" . . .cause there's bugger all down here on the Earth."
 
Brad Smith said:
If the Universe is always expanding, what is it expanding into? A solid wall? More space? It has to expand into something...
Click to expand...
That's the million dollar question. No one knows because any 'boundary' that exists is far beyond the observable. There are many ideas floating around between bubble universes where some are youger and less mature than others and infinitely many existing. Some say that it's a void of absolute zero. Some say it's a highly dense environment, some say there is nothing that we can conceive.

In reality, our observable universe is far smaller than its actual size. It expanded for a very long time before the density and temperature decreased enough for photons to move freely. Imagine an environment so dense and hot that the sub-atomic particles can't condense into atoms. Blows me away. The cosmic background radiation is the confirmed observation of that predicted first light. It's an echo of that first light.

I'm afraid, we can only surmise what the universe is expanding into.

For many years I held a firm suspicion that the universe would contract and collapse in on itself. I no longer hold this so firmly. I'm more for continuous expansion until all the energy is exhausted, atoms evaporated, and the universe has dropped to absolute zero. In which case, the four forces are unified and eventually we end up with another big bang. Repeat and recycle.

Youtube is your friend if you want to learn more.

Sent from my SM-T720 using Tapatalk
 
JOhnH said:
But is there consensus? That would make it true, wouldn’t it?
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A consensus is only that, a consensus. It doesn't make the hypothesis true or false. We may discover new evidence as early as tomorrow which turns the whole thing on its head and sends everyone back to the drawing board.
 
Ryanb said:
Read the post again. The odds of an ‘explosion’ occurring, which places everything in our galaxy in just the right spot for life to happen solely by mere chance is sooo incredibly small.

I could go on to explain various laws of physics that such an event would break, but I don’t believe it’s worth the effort. I’ve studied this topic quite a bit during my time in undergrad, and many of the proposed ideas just don’t add up. As I said, it’s a good fable, but that’s about it.
Click to expand...

Must have been a great undergrad program to provide you with more knowledge and insights than the numerous well respected physicists with PhDs and years of research in this area of study have.

As to fables, it is typically those who believe in a certain book of fables that normally so easily dismiss science.
 
SkyDog58 said:
..As to fables, it is typically those who believe in a certain book of fables that normally so easily dismiss science.
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And, conversely, it seems that it is typical for those without faith and belief in or lack of wonder about the existence of a greater power to denigrate the large number of highly intelligent people that realize that faith in God and scientific study and facts can easily coexist. Believe or disbelieve what you want, but there is absolutely no need to be insulting.
 
Kritchlow said:
If it were in a plain, roughly the thickness of the Milky Way (10,000 light years??), we could probably see the edge of the universe. So, i would say the universe is expanding in ALL directions.
Click to expand...
That is assuming that we are near enough to the "edge" for the light to have reached us.
 
aliens-probably-ride-past-earth-and-lock-their-doors-37738985.png
 
The cosmos is like a fish bowl, with no end and no beginning and no bowl...... It is extremely hard for most people to wrap our heads around the structture, or lack thereof of space. Our Milky way is only about 1000 light years thick on one axis, but billions on another. But it cannot be measured on an xy scale, it's more of an abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz123456789!@#$%^&*()_+}{":?>< scale....if that makes sense.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Must have been a great undergrad program to provide you with more knowledge and insights than the numerous well respected physicists with PhDs and years of research in this area of study have.

As to fables, it is typically those who believe in a certain book of fables that normally so easily dismiss science.
Click to expand...
I expected such a reply from you. Not sure why you consistently strike back with these condescending-like answers in several posts within the past several months. I’m not a stupid person, so you don’t need to treat me like one, even though your mentality toward millennials may not support the idea that we’re not all dumb people, but it’s easy to do sitting behind a keyboard - I get it.

Astronomy and related subjects have long been of great interest to me. Once you dig beyond the basics of what’s commonly taught, you’ll realize that there’s many errors within the theory, of which have such a small probability of occurrence by mere chance you can’t even compute it.

Believe what you wish, but science doesn’t have all of the answers. This is my POV and I’m sorry you disagree with it.
 
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