Military rotor to American Airlines

Fearless Tower said:
Seems like the military helo guys are having to do time at a regional first while the fixed wing guys are going straight to the majors.

Discrimination!
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When I got hired in '89, at my interview there were 2 guys (Army) that only had rotor time. The Chief Pilot felt bad that they had called them in to interview, but told them they needed to get some fixed wing time. Felt bad for them that they had showed up, and prepared for the interview, only to be shown the door. After the first Gulf War, they hired every helo guy who interviewed, Army, Navy, and Marine helo pilots. Flew with most of them as their Capt, and they all were sharp, very competent, and an honor to fly with them.

Go for it V, good luck!
 
Congrats buddy!! Good luck with training!
 
I'm waiting for them to announce the low time, fair weather IFR, small bore piston program. Just as soon as they do, heeeeerrrrrreeeee I cooooooommmmmmmeeeeeeeee!!!
 
Ryanb said:
Congrats buddy!! Good luck with training!
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Oh I'm not going. I just saw the advert in Flying this month and thought it was interesting that AA was looking for military rotor.
 
There are worse places to be than Envoy (I guess), but I cringe when the regionals dangle that '5 years' to flow to AA. That's *IF* there is absolutely no hiccup in the economy, age 67, or a contractual change to the flow language. Any of which can happen at any time. The current flows have been at Envoy for 15+ years.
 
Velocity173 said:
Oh I'm not going. I just saw the advert in Flying this month and thought it was interesting that AA was looking for military rotor.
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Remember, AA and Envoy set necessarily the same thing. The reality is the majors are hiring, but it isn't so bad yet that they are taking rotor wing military guys off the street.

There are two ways to get hired at a major: military fixed wing or previous 121 (i.e. Regional).

The regionals will take just about anyone who can meet the mins. They are just trying to entice mil rotary wing guys to spend a year or two in hopes of getting on with a major.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Great Lakes comes to mind. Mesa too.
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I've never flown for the regionals and don't really keep up with where the better places are. The flows from our wholly owned carriers have all been there for well over a decade (sometimes over two decades!), and they all ***** about where they came from. They also ***** about each other. Heh! One thing I've gathered is that the Envoy guys do NOT like the PSA guys. I'm not sure what went down, but whatever happened it left some bad blood out there. :)
 
kayoh190 said:
One thing I've gathered is that the Envoy guys do NOT like the PSA guys. I'm not sure what went down, but whatever happened it left some bad blood out there. :)
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I'm not at all surprised. Envoy was the original Eagle back in the days of AMR. And guys languished for over a decade hoping for the flow through gods to look upon them favorably which was never going to happen as long as AA guys were still on furlough.

Now after the latest Doug Parker abortion, PSA is now in the limelight as the preferred, wholly owned regional and those poor bastards at Envoy feel like they are getting the shaft.

It is not unlike the East vs West battle that went on for years at US Airways.

That's what Parker does. He causes hate and discontent while he gets richer.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Remember, AA and Envoy set necessarily the same thing. The reality is the majors are hiring, but it isn't so bad yet that they are taking rotor wing military guys off the street.

There are two ways to get hired at a major: military fixed wing or previous 121 (i.e. Regional).

The regionals will take just about anyone who can meet the mins. They are just trying to entice mil rotary wing guys to spend a year or two in hopes of getting on with a major.
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Regional or major, it's never been a path that I've thought about. I'm sure I'll have plenty of friends take the leap though. To each his own.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I'm not at all surprised. Envoy was the original Eagle back in the days of AMR. And guys languished for over a decade hoping for the flow through gods to look upon them favorably which was never going to happen as long as AA guys were still on furlough.

Now after the latest Doug Parker abortion, PSA is now in the limelight as the preferred, wholly owned regional and those poor bastards at Envoy feel like they are getting the shaft.

It is not unlike the East vs West battle that went on for years at US Airways.

That's what Parker does. He causes hate and discontent while he gets richer.
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Our CEO is the former CEO of Comair. :eek: He's a good guy though. Everyone raves about his leadership in running our company.
 
kayoh190 said:
I've never flown for the regionals and don't really keep up with where the better places are. The flows from our wholly owned carriers have all been there for well over a decade (sometimes over two decades!), and they all ***** about where they came from. They also ***** about each other. Heh! One thing I've gathered is that the Envoy guys do NOT like the PSA guys. I'm not sure what went down, but whatever happened it left some bad blood out there. :)
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Took me all of 4 years at a regional. I don't know what's wrong with these guys.
 
Art VanDelay said:
Took me all of 4 years at a regional. I don't know what's wrong with these guys.
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Bet you didn't go to Envoy. That's the difference. AA still had a long list of guys on furlough since 2001, at least until a few years ago. Anyone who threw their hat in with Eagle back then was stuck waiting for those furloughs to get called back before they were going to get a call. That's the difference and hence the bitterness. It's all the luck of the draw.

There are a lot of guys at places like Air Wisconsin now who are a bit nervous because they still don't know what is going to happen when their shuttle contract is up.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It's all the luck of the draw.
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So true. That's why I cringe when I see talks of flow in 5 years, widebody or Captain in xxx years, and so on. I guess it's fine to dream, but I'm more of the type to not poke the gods of aviation. ;)

If I can just get a paycheck every two weeks until I decide to retire, I'll be happy. I budget for min-guarantee in the right seat of the smallest piece of equipment in our fleet. Anything else is gravy.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Bet you didn't go to Envoy. That's the difference. AA still had a long list of guys on furlough since 2001, at least until a few years ago. Anyone who threw their hat in with Eagle back then was stuck waiting for those furloughs to get called back before they were going to get a call. That's the difference and hence the bitterness. It's all the luck of the draw.

There are a lot of guys at places like Air Wisconsin now who are a bit nervous because they still don't know what is going to happen when their shuttle contract is up.
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Yeah well maybe they need to conceptualize that there might exist other major airlines besides American !
 
Art VanDelay said:
Yeah well maybe they need to conceptualize that there might exist other major airlines besides American !
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I'm sure they had their app out everywhere, or at least they did until they felt they had the golden handcuffs and resigned themselves to being a regional lifer. I've seen a lot of that - guys get too set in their ways and don't want to do the career fair/interview dance anymore, and settled into their regional gig. Then the flows came, which allowed them another shot at a major without having to go through all the interview stress. I flew with newhire six months ago that was 63 years old. Spent 30+ years at his regional, and with the flow decided to finish up his career at mainline.
 
I have two friends that came over straight from the 91/135 ranks, but it's difficult to stand out amongst all the regional pilots, who tend to have a lot more flight time. I took an intermediate step and spent a few years at a mid-level 121 carrier before getting the call from my current employer. I'm not sure if they ever would have called me had I not had the 121 time first.
 
I have a family member, military multi-engine rotary wing, about to get out. Not interested in fooling with the current system, or civil aviation for pay, in general. His buds seem inclined the same way, though I'm sure there must be exceptions. I know the bonuses aren't keeping them in, for the most part, so it looks like a general trend away from aviation employment. . .
 
Aa far as the regionals are concerned if you have the minimum required fix wing time for that ATP AMEL they'll offer you a shot at it. For some guys in the military on the rotorcraft side they just don't have that fix wing time at all, or not nearly the amount required for the ATP AMEL hence why they aren't even looked at in the major level. It's just a legal qualification issue not quality
 
JustinD said:
Aa far as the regionals are concerned if you have the minimum required fix wing time for that ATP AMEL they'll offer you a shot at it. For some guys in the military on the rotorcraft side they just don't have that fix wing time at all, or not nearly the amount required for the ATP AMEL hence why they aren't even looked at in the major level. It's just a legal qualification issue not quality
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Which is why Envoy has this program. 23 grand on top of GI Bill to get the FW ratings. Majority of my friends already have FW due to the defunct AVOTEC program. So for the most part, it's only about getting the IFR and 25hrs ME PIC.

Really it's about getting someone to leave a community (helo) that they've already invested time in, to start at the bottom in regionals. For some that haven't developed much seniority, it will be a leap that they're willing to do. There will be plenty that aren't willing to give up higher pay and pick up and move for a regional job. You also have to take into consideration the whole furlough thing as well. My current job is pretty recession proof.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Bet you didn't go to Envoy. That's the difference. AA still had a long list of guys on furlough since 2001, at least until a few years ago. Anyone who threw their hat in with Eagle back then was stuck waiting for those furloughs to get called back before they were going to get a call. That's the difference and hence the bitterness. It's all the luck of the draw.

There are a lot of guys at places like Air Wisconsin now who are a bit nervous because they still don't know what is going to happen when their shuttle contract is up.
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I think they know what's happening. Air Wisconsin is going to shut down. I have a good friend that's a captain there and he is pulling the red handle on 121. I'm helping him get a rookie seat in Ag. He's just riding air whiskey until they shutter up
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I think they know what's happening. Air Wisconsin is going to shut down. I have a good friend that's a captain there and he is pulling the red handle on 121. I'm helping him get a rookie seat in Ag. He's just riding air whiskey until they shutter up
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Seems to be what's going to happen at my old airline in KATL, ASA/ExpressJet. A shame.
 
mscard88 said:
Seems to be what's going to happen at my old airline in KATL, ASA/ExpressJet. A shame.
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What does that mean for the regionals as a whole? Is it trending towards the wholly owned, and the other guys are getting shut out? What happens to that market when someone like Air Wisconsin shuts down?
 
Cooter said:
What does that mean for the regionals as a whole? Is it trending towards the wholly owned, and the other guys are getting shut out? What happens to that market when someone like Air Wisconsin shuts down?
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Seems to be wholly owned airlines is the story today, and consolidation of regionals just as the majors have consolidated into 3 plus SWA. Plus the so called pilot shortage will enable the majors to control and have a source of pilots for the majors. Years ago Delta actually bought ASA but all they seemed to use it for was a place for retired DAL management types to start their 'retirement hobby'. They didn't do ASA much good.
 
mscard88 said:
Seems to be wholly owned airlines is the story today, and consolidation of regionals just as the majors have consolidated into 3 plus SWA. Plus the so called pilot shortage will enable the majors to control and have a source of pilots for the majors. Years ago Delta actually bought ASA but all they seemed to use it for was a place for retired DAL management types to start their 'retirement hobby'. They didn't do ASA much good.
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They also used it as leverage with comair. Using each as leverage to keep wages and work rules in check at both. The old whipsaw. At my regional job I was flying a two class standup cabin airframe on primary hub routes making 40k a year. Don't really miss that so much. Lots of downward pressure on wages in the regional market. It's better now than when I left 9 years ago but no good enough to keep me interested.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I think they know what's happening. Air Wisconsin is going to shut down. I have a good friend that's a captain there and he is pulling the red handle on 121. I'm helping him get a rookie seat in Ag. He's just riding air whiskey until they shutter up
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You're probably right. Along the subject of this thread, the only guys I know going to Air Wis these days are low time mil guys looking to get their 121 ticket punched.
 
It's funny, everybody in my shop is racing to the airlines....but with the private plan (civilian guys tend to get upset at mil guys having that kind of trip/schedule-drop legal ability) to drop 3-5 years of MIL-leave on the company as soon as they're on property, in order to bypass juniority and get as close as possible to an active duty retirement. I don't find that to be much of a compliment to the job they're proclaiming to covet so badly. Of course, I'm not regAF; my job is largely devoid of ballwash do-nothing, box-checking, gratuitous-separation "deployments". So I'm in a much better QOL position than my regAF brethren. YMMV.

I've been watching a lot of youtube lately regarding Lorenzo, the cautionary tale history of Eastern Airlines and the industry at-large. It strikes me as an inherently handicapped/whipsawed industry from a pilot income perspective.
(1) NAI-style flag-o-convenience schemes affecting group-IV US jobs, and (2) the fall of cabotage laws (Jones Act), give me a lot of pause. Maybe it's the late-night youtube marathons getting to my head, but I have more confidence in snagging Bronze in female gymnastics than I do in this industry successfully stiff-arming those two outcomes for another 20 years, when it would directly impact my financial goals and expectations as a primary breadwinner.

Ultimately, I don't find that job engaging. I tried similar flying in the Buff for 4 years; it bored me to tears. To each their own. Most of my peers privately admit they do it for the time off and the promise of big bucks; a smaller percentage (DINKS and empty nesters mostly) for the layover traveling (intl). None cited the flying itself. I guess at 35, I'm not ready to grow up yet. My wife told me: "no point in you making a ton of money if we come home to a job-bored husband, kicking the cat and scream at our son". A sage, that woman.

Good luck to all out there.

T-38%2BMisc%2B04.png

Hinsight,
who is not willing to lose heart.
 
hindsight2020 said:
It's funny, everybody in my shop is racing to the airlines....but with the private plan (civilian guys tend to get upset at mil guys having that kind of trip/schedule-drop legal ability) to drop 3-5 years of MIL-leave on the company as soon as they're on property, in order to bypass juniority and get as close as possible to an active duty retirement. I don't find that to be much of a compliment to the job they're proclaiming to covet so badly. Of course, I'm not regAF; my job is largely devoid of ballwash do-nothing, box-checking, gratuitous-separation "deployments". So I'm in a much better QOL position than my regAF brethren. YMMV.

I've been watching a lot of youtube lately regarding Lorenzo, the cautionary tale history of Eastern Airlines and the industry at-large. It strikes me as an inherently handicapped/whipsawed industry from a pilot income perspective.
(1) NAI-style flag-o-convenience schemes affecting group-IV US jobs, and (2) the fall of cabotage laws (Jones Act), give me a lot of pause. Maybe it's the late-night youtube marathons getting to my head, but I have more confidence in snagging Bronze in female gymnastics than I do in this industry successfully stiff-arming those two outcomes for another 20 years, when it would directly impact my financial goals and expectations as a primary breadwinner.

Ultimately, I don't find that job engaging. I tried similar flying in the Buff for 4 years; it bored me to tears. To each their own. Most of my peers privately admit they do it for the time off and the promise of big bucks; a smaller percentage (DINKS and empty nesters mostly) for the layover traveling (intl). None cited the flying itself. I guess at 35, I'm not ready to grow up yet. My wife told me: "no point in you making a ton of money if we come home to a job-bored husband, kicking the cat and scream at our son". A sage, that woman.

Good luck to all out there.

T-38%2BMisc%2B04.png

Hinsight,
who is not willing to lose heart.
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You have broken the code sir.
 
hindsight2020 said:
It's funny, everybody in my shop is racing to the airlines....but with the private plan (civilian guys tend to get upset at mil guys having that kind of trip/schedule-drop legal ability) to drop 3-5 years of MIL-leave on the company as soon as they're on property, in order to bypass juniority and get as close as possible to an active duty retirement. I don't find that to be much of a compliment to the job they're proclaiming to covet so badly. Of course, I'm not regAF; my job is largely devoid of ballwash do-nothing, box-checking, gratuitous-separation "deployments". So I'm in a much better QOL position than my regAF brethren. YMMV.

I've been watching a lot of youtube lately regarding Lorenzo, the cautionary tale history of Eastern Airlines and the industry at-large. It strikes me as an inherently handicapped/whipsawed industry from a pilot income perspective.
(1) NAI-style flag-o-convenience schemes affecting group-IV US jobs, and (2) the fall of cabotage laws (Jones Act), give me a lot of pause. Maybe it's the late-night youtube marathons getting to my head, but I have more confidence in snagging Bronze in female gymnastics than I do in this industry successfully stiff-arming those two outcomes for another 20 years, when it would directly impact my financial goals and expectations as a primary breadwinner.

Ultimately, I don't find that job engaging. I tried similar flying in the Buff for 4 years; it bored me to tears. To each their own. Most of my peers privately admit they do it for the time off and the promise of big bucks; a smaller percentage (DINKS and empty nesters mostly) for the layover traveling (intl). None cited the flying itself. I guess at 35, I'm not ready to grow up yet. My wife told me: "no point in you making a ton of money if we come home to a job-bored husband, kicking the cat and scream at our son". A sage, that woman.

Good luck to all out there.

T-38%2BMisc%2B04.png

Hinsight,
who is not willing to lose heart.
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It's like any other job/career, not for everyone. But it ain't bad once you have some seniority.
 
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kayoh190 said:
There are worse places to be than Envoy (I guess), but I cringe when the regionals dangle that '5 years' to flow to AA. That's *IF* there is absolutely no hiccup in the economy, age 67, or a contractual change to the flow language. Any of which can happen at any time. The current flows have been at Envoy for 15+ years.
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If you go by strictly flow number any WO will be 20+ years. PSA is at 5 a month, Envoy is shortly going to be 8 a month, and Piedmont is 5, I think.

Parker has made it clear that he will not to tolerate any WO having anyone with 8+ years of seniority. Either you flow by year 8 or your at another airline, hopefully a Legacy and/or Cargo.

I chose a WO because it will make me a line holder in under six months and I'll upgrade in 2 years. That's if the merry go around continues. My choices for the next hop is Delta or United. AA is if I don't get hired by anyone else.

Currently at my WO we're losing 15-20 a month with only 5 to the flow. The rest are being picked up by the other two legacy carriers.

It's a whole lot better then my last airline. Reserve was 3+ years and upgrades are 10 years.
 
mscard88 said:
Seems to be what's going to happen at my old airline in KATL, ASA/ExpressJet. A shame.
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Skywest hates XJT. To them it's a top heavy high cost unionize money pit. They will slowly spool them down until they either part them out or fold them into Skywest. The word I've gathered from my friends still at XJT is that the pilots will be offered a job at Skywest if they dissolve the union. If they resist they'll throw them on the street.
 
ARFlyer said:
Skywest hates XJT. To them it's a top heavy high cost unionize money pit. They will slowly spool them down until they either part them out or fold them into Skywest. The word I've gathered from my friends still at XJT is that the pilots will be offered a job at Skywest if they dissolve the union. If they resist they'll throw them on the street.
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What a mess, glad I'm out.
 
PSA has a rotor transition program now official through Skywarrior in Pensacola. Good choice probably given the proximity of naval helicopter aviators.
 
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