Military aviators and/or Engineers?

If flying is your passion, fly while you can. That's what my brother did till diabetes ended it. He had his Engineering degrees to fall back on.

Fair enough. I'd admit though, if diabetes ripped my wings, I'd still wouldn't do engineering. I'd go ride a sim at flight safety or go back to school if the family could absorb the paycut. And I have two degrees in the damn thing.

The reality is that, the purported "backup value" of a degree is less than zero when it involves work you ran away from in the first place. One of the more "time expensive" and thus wasteful lessons of my life to be honest. I'm not going to say it was a mistake per se, since a college degree was otherwise a formality required for me to become a military pilot (officer requires a degree) or airline pilot (majors make it a competitive de facto requirement), but that choice of majors was an unapologetic and gratuitous exercise in practice bleeding for no ROI in my personal life.

I think I've posted on here before about my screename, but pursuing two engineering degrees is the real reason behind my screename. It's a long story, but suffice to say if I were to do anything different in my life, which admittedly has not had the outcomes I intended for it, it would be to pursue a mickey mouse degree with enough prereqs for medical schools (MD, PA or dental), instead of wasting the best decade of my life for no-strings fornication in the pursuit of engineering school.
 
Mike, he can fly now and engineer later. The chance to fly for the Navy later won't come along. To be sure, military retirement benefits are great (I'll tell you about my dad's sometime), but just because he heads merrily off to Pensacola doesn't mean he needs to stay through retirement.

On a more practical matter, how will he tolerate military discipline through OCS and flight training? It's regimented in ways that civilians just can't imagine . . . Modern military flying is much less relaxed, too. Just in case he washes out of flight school, what options would he have? My dad went through Pcola as an Officer Cadet, those who washed out served their agreed-in-advance terms as enlisted rather than officers--is he ready for that? Is that still the option?

P.S.--any plans for the weekend?
All good questions Hank. I do think he would do well with the discipline, I don't know about the other things. We are at Disney, coming home late tomorrow. If you got flying to do, I'm your guy. I could could use some therapy.
 
Just to be clear, when I said an engineering degree and some experience was a good fallback, that was if he is unable to complete ocs/api. I'm in with everyone else that says after training and a tour or two he won't be competitive in the engineering market.

That being said, the leadership skills the Navy brings are in demand in industry and to become a technical leader an engineering degree is all but required, even if its stale.

Nauga,
Who hasn't stopped learning
 
Economics? The old retirement system wasn't that hot, actually - 50% of "base" pay, excluded BAH, flight pay, etc. Worked out to more like 30% of real pay. New system is lamer, unless you bolt early. . .

I'd advise to look at it as a pro athlete's career - do it for self fulfillment, fun, decent money, but with the understanding that it can end abruptly; you land in a dog unit, and/or a dog aircraft, with a mission you have no passion for; or bomb a physical, or get caught in a RIF, or just not get enough flying time to make it worthwhile for you. Or get your dream airplane!

If you stay long enough, remaining in the cockpit can be a problem - gotta fill a lot of non-aviation squares to be promoted, too.
 
Fair enough. I'd admit though, if diabetes ripped my wings, I'd still wouldn't do engineering. I'd go ride a sim at flight safety or go back to school if the family could absorb the paycut. And I have two degrees in the damn thing.

The reality is that, the purported "backup value" of a degree is less than zero when it involves work you ran away from in the first place. One of the more "time expensive" and thus wasteful lessons of my life to be honest. I'm not going to say it was a mistake per se, since a college degree was otherwise a formality required for me to become a military pilot (officer requires a degree) or airline pilot (majors make it a competitive de facto requirement), but that choice of majors was an unapologetic and gratuitous exercise in practice bleeding for no ROI in my personal life.

I think I've posted on here before about my screename, but pursuing two engineering degrees is the real reason behind my screename. It's a long story, but suffice to say if I were to do anything different in my life, which admittedly has not had the outcomes I intended for it, it would be to pursue a mickey mouse degree with enough prereqs for medical schools (MD, PA or dental), instead of wasting the best decade of my life for no-strings fornication in the pursuit of engineering school.
Well, I'm not sure what would have happened to him if he had not had the Engineering education. I believe it enabled him to remain in the Air Force and achieve retirement after being diagnosed diabetic. After 11 years of flying, KC-135, KC-10, and Experimental Test Pilot he went on to program management at Wright Patterson, then staff officer/division chief at the Pentagon, and finally division chief at Wright Patterson, retiring after 23 years total USAF. Following the military career he was employed by a military contractor in DC. He's currently back in college working on a Doctorate.
 
I wasn't military aviator, but am a retired Army officer. Ended up medically retired due to non-combat injuries. Military experience, not my degree, landed me a good job I've been doing 12 years now. I'm on track to fully retire in a bit over three years. I'll be 57 when I do. The military pension is a big part of the reason I will be able to do so. If I didn't still have a kid in college, I'd be retiring even sooner.
 
Go fly. He can always return to engineering after he does a Navy tour or career.
Unless he is generally undecided about flying in general, this would be my advice. Do the pilot thing first. It is MUCH easier to go from pilot to CEC than the other way around. Many officers in the CEC community started out in line jobs (aviator/surface/subs) and then lateral transferred to CEC later.
 
I was a mech E in college, and currently a mil aviator. I obviously have a lot of friends from school that went into engineering full time, whom I still keep in touch with. I think there are a couple important points:

1) Going military pilot is going to more than likely take him forever out of the trade of "engineering". Might make it back someday in management or something, but unless he/she does the test pilot school route, you are talking about coming back to the industry as a 33-35+ year old (at a minimum) with absolutely no experience in engineering other than school….which of course amounts to nothing. Meanwhile you can get hired immediately by the majors, or can go into any number of well paying management or contract/consulting positions, which are only enhanced money wise by the clearance you may have held on active duty. Going back to square one as a new engineer makes less than no sense. So only the really committed would probably do that, given then extreme pay cut they would take.

2) Nearly 10 years into my career, my engineer friends have only recently started to even out with me in terms of salary……which kind of plays into my previous point. Believe it or not, the money is pretty good as a military junior officer on flight pay/making deployments/etc. Obviously there are some junior engineering jobs (software, network, IT kinds of things to name a few) which pay pretty well right off the bat given the right connections, but by and large, entry to mid level engineering jobs in more traditional fields are going to pay well south of what you make as an active duty pilot.

That is all purely based on personal experience, and mileage will certainly vary, but I'd say the "friend" really just needs to make a decision about what they want to do, and realize they probably won't end up doing the other option later.

I don't know that the outlook is that bleak. I was a little bit younger than that, but not much younger when started at square one as a new engineer, and that was after an enlisted stint. Sitting here now, I'm higher on the food chain than most people that have started fresh out of college. Well on the other hand, I did start fresh out of college, I just did college later. I guess I was lucky though, having made career choices that caused things to end up that way.

I grew up in the environment. Many of the Naval aviators and line officers (and CEC's, for that matter) who took early outs stepped directly in to management positions with oil companies and international contractors. And did well. Same thing when I was in the Army.

Interestingly, one of my compatriots was an ex-Marine, a Desert Storm vet. He got out as a corporal. Went to school, did engineering, and he managed to swing a slot as an 05 in the US Public Health Service. Directly as a civilian with prior E4 service. They sent him to OCS, and now he wears a Navy uniform, gets 05 pay and is on track for retirement with his former service time counting for credit.
 
Not at all saying it doesn't happen. My cousin got out of the Corps as a Staff Sgt after his last deployment to Somalia, got a good engineering job that paid for his bachelors and masters, and years later, is in a senior management job, after having served as an engineer for many of those years. I'm speaking more to the aviator leaving after their initial obligation (generally around the 10 year mark), who would take probably a 50% pay cut to enter a field (engineering) they have no experience/skills in aside from the degree they got a decade before. Contrast that with other careers that they are readily qualified for, and that generally offer more comparable paychecks. Trust me, there are PLENTY of contract businesses that actively hunt those types of guys/gals, and pay very well. I know because they are constantly leaving me messages, trying to meet with me, and generally wasting my time trying to get me to endorse their manufactured/imaginary problem that they will need money to solve for the DoD (that is a whole other discussion where I lose my mind at the end). I'd caveat this by saying anyone who ends up in the flight test community would be in a different set of circumstances when it comes to engineering jobs, at least in some segments of the industry.
 
Unless he is generally undecided about flying in general, this would be my advice. Do the pilot thing first. It is MUCH easier to go from pilot to CEC than the other way around. Many officers in the CEC community started out in line jobs (aviator/surface/subs) and then lateral transferred to CEC later.

There are probably some examples of more senior lateral transfers, but for the most part as I'm sure you have seen as well, once you get to the senior O-3 level, that stuff gets hard unless you are talking FAO or some other community that was basically built with a more senior level entry requirement. I doubt starting out on day one in CEC as a LCDR or LCDR(sel) is very career enhancing in anyone's eyes (which is where you are seniority wise when your initial aviation obligation is up). What I'm getting at is that those folks (be it CEC, Intel, IDC, etc) likely attrited from flight school, the FRS, or possibly via FNAEB and POCR board from the fleet. I know examples of each of those cases, and I'd be willing to bet those you know fit that bill as well at least from the aviation side (I know things are significantly different in the SWO world in this realm). In short, not really an option for your standard aviation JO.
 
There are probably some examples of more senior lateral transfers, but for the most part as I'm sure you have seen as well, once you get to the senior O-3 level, that stuff gets hard unless you are talking FAO or some other community that was basically built with a more senior level entry requirement. I doubt starting out on day one in CEC as a LCDR or LCDR(sel) is very career enhancing in anyone's eyes (which is where you are seniority wise when your initial aviation obligation is up). What I'm getting at is that those folks (be it CEC, Intel, IDC, etc) likely attrited from flight school, the FRS, or possibly via FNAEB and POCR board from the fleet. I know examples of each of those cases, and I'd be willing to bet those you know fit that bill as well at least from the aviation side (I know things are significantly different in the SWO world in this realm). In short, not really an option for your standard aviation JO.
I was referring more to guys who don't make it through flight training and end up in other communities.
 
...or he can fly now and also be an engineer now. www.goang.com

LOL Yeah,right. The reality of that situation is much more complex than you're portraying.
I think you know all this already, but I'll spell it out for the benefit of the gallery..

BTW **TL;DR warning**

For those still reading. Here we go:

Here's the dirty little secret about American Patriotism: it's riddled with fine print. I hate the fact I'm writing this in the middle of Memorial Day Weekend, but it needs to be said.

I have first hand knowledge of the opportunity costs of attempting to do a non-shoe-clerk military job in the Guard/Reserves, while attempting to hold a banker's hour pedestrian job. The short and skinny of it? It's very difficult to pull off long term, and your civilian career progression inevitably suffers for it. Hardly the layup being suggested it is.

People need to first understand what a Guard/Reserves job is. One weekend a month, two weeks a year right? WRONG. That's "nonner" AFSC/MOS drill duty, plus two weeks of AT (annual tour). That's not AIRCREW. Aircrew jobs have requirements that far exceed that minimal level of advertised participation. Nobody is going to be combat effective, let alone training effective, with 48 UTA periods (generally burned at the rate of 2 periods per day) and 15 AT days. Because the military recognizes that, most flying units provide 48-72 AFTP (additional flying training period) in order to provide the required level of proficiency, and even that is kinda lowish, but it's accepted under the guise of the old model of "Strategic Reserves", which the military wipes their rear with these days, but that's for another thread.

At any rate. So for our hypothetical engineer, that means he will be asking for time off during the week to go fly, go on trips of week+ duration, and attend upgrade training at the tune of 90+ days at a time. In an employer with 10,000 carbon copies of yourself, and a scheduling system based on the premise of absence/sickout management, this isn't a problem. And surprise surprise, the ANG/AFRC was built with the airline schedule in mind. For an engineering firm with 3-4 dudes working on a project? LOL Guess who doesn't survive the furloughs or doesn't make the promotion when it comes time to fold shop and go chase your job to Seattle or whatever life-altering transcontinental relocation is expected of you in order to maintain professional parity these days in those eyeball-gouging engineering jobs.

I'm not conjecturing, this was my life. I was right there, asking for civilian jobs 6 months removed from UPT as a Reserve baby, and I got a ton of doors shoved in my face once it became known I was a Reservist pilot. Illegal btw, to withhold employment from someone based on military affiliation. GOOD LUCK proving it in court. Google the Weather Channel chick that got canned because she refused to get back from a trip with the Hurricane Hunters. And that was a female, with the right key between her legs and a national PR podium from which to shout bloody murder from. They had to settle out of court, good for her. The point is, that this nobody right here never had that PR option, so the options become limited.

I was in the middle of interviewing for a tenure track assistant professorship at a Southeast US technical public 4 year university I shall not name, and during the interview the subject of Reserve participation came up (red flag #1). When I exercised the courtesy and transparency to acknowledge my military membership (why should I be ashamed to admit my military status in my own g-d Country in the first place?), he went on great lengths to affirm their support for military service.......aaaaand then proceeded to qualify his answer by saying and I quote: "but we still expect you here and available all five weekedays during office hours".

And then I get admonished by my civilian ex-wife as she showed support for the position of said prospective employer. Yellow ribbons around the tree for all my brothers, but no jobs? Yeah in the words of Goodfellas: "F--k you, pay me".

So all due respect, I disagree with boilerplate advice to fly part-time for the Guard. The devil is in the details. Civilian employers ARE NOT reservist friendly. They only support you as long as you're some red horse guy attending drill on Saturday and Sunday, days when they couldn't care less what you do or where you go. But for those of us who require a commitment that actually comes out of family's hide, yeah you'd be ill-advised to attempt to pursue a pedestrian career like engineer, UNLESS it was a federal job that happened to be co-located in the military installation you drill at. Ironically, that's almost what an Air Reserve Technician is (for a huge paycut mind you), but I digress.

So what happened to me? Well, that dynamic forced me into a vocational cross-roads early in life. So crappy was the aero engineering and the academic civilian market compensation, that when I did the math, as a Reserve trougher (i.e. someone who isn't an ART or AGR at the unit, but cobbles up man days to the tune of an income enough to cover the rent, but absent many entitlements and sick/leave benefits, and no salary guarantee) I made more money as an O-2 AND had better than even airline-schedule flexibility (basically free agent work schedule, cherry picking days or weeks), than if I was a straight part-timer with a primary civilian career in said fields as a new entrant. Then he offered a 6 year probationary period and I just stood up and left, the phone proverbially hanging off the desk unhooked. What a joke.

So, I told the civilian market thanks but no thanks, went into freelancer mode for 4 years as a trougher, built up hours in a B-52 and then became a full timer in the training world making more than I would have made in either civilian field. Today I qualify to apply for major airline employment, which would provide me with income parity from my military income within 2-3 years. So I've made lemonade. No regrets.

But this wasn't the plan. This was what the sheer lack of reserve support and respect in the civilian market forced me to do in order to feed my family while serving my Country. I'm certainly not going to apologize for my service, but it hasn't been free. Most Active Duty folks are skeptical of civilian work life because of the take-home pay sticker shock and medical insurance cost issue. As a Reservist my reservations against the civilian sector deal more with their doublespeak rather than budgeting fears, since as a de facto civilian I was already aware of the much lower take home pay a civilian gross income yields.

My advice? Unless one plans to work for civilian employers with 5-10,000 copies of yourself in the same job bucket, I'd either make your pedestrian civilian career the priority, or go full time military. Because in the end, even if it's your legal recourse, do you really want to work for someone you have to sue in order to retain your employment rights? I sure don't. Not to mention the wonders that does for peer to peer relationships at work and promotion potential. Like I said, I live in the real world of human pettiness, being a flyer and working for proverbial "Initech" is largely an either/or proposition. Caveat emptor.
 
My Reserve experience years back was much the same. . .no crew poistion could do one weekend a month and two weeks a year. No way to do that, and get and stay qualified.

We were a haven when the airlines furloughed, and for guys with gov't jobs, or large employers with gov't contracts. Though it still impacted advancement, especially when (not if) the unit was activated.

As I recall, Reserve and Guard units passed Active Duty in hours flown back in the 80's, and last I heard, that remains the case. After two call-ups, one of mitre than a year, I had to pack it in. . .
 
My brother was credited with developing software in BASIC language to computer KC-135 takeoff data, and mission planning software for the KC-10 and obtained Air Force approval for employment across all KC-10 units, putting his EE & Computer Science degrees to use while being AC/IP on those aircraft. Intended to show that you may have opportunity to utilize your engineering education while being a military pilot.
 
Last edited:
The non flying side of the military that he'll have to look forward to. The hot, super model wife part is accurate though.:D

https://fightersweep.com/5352/non-flying-side-military-pilot/
That's my great friend "Mover". AFRC Viper and now Hornet Aggressor guy. And accomplished author to boot! Great guy all around. Tough life he's had getting and staying in the fighter cockpit. An inspirational story all around.

And yes, he's spot on regarding the QWEEP that is making all of us DOD pilots run for the exits. The ancillary garbage is out of control, it sucks the fun and sense of accomplishment out of the job, especially once you move up a little in the totem pole and get starved from actual flying. I got two SOF tours next week myself. Fly twice if I'm lucky. That's just not enough to keep me around. Fighter/bomber guys have it worse on the sortie count.

Like it's been beat to death already, airlines are hiring, and they generally leave you the eff alone after the parking brake is set and the cockpit door opens and ACARS clocks you out. For some of us, the paycut is actually worth that opportunity cost.
 
That's my great friend "Mover". AFRC Viper and now Hornet Aggressor guy. And accomplished author to boot! Great guy all around. Tough life he's had getting and staying in the fighter cockpit. An inspirational story all around.

And yes, he's spot on regarding the QWEEP that is making all of us DOD pilots run for the exits. The ancillary garbage is out of control, it sucks the fun and sense of accomplishment out of the job, especially once you move up a little in the totem pole and get starved from actual flying. I got two SOF tours next week myself. Fly twice if I'm lucky. That's just not enough to keep me around. Fighter/bomber guys have it worse on the sortie count.

Like it's been beat to death already, airlines are hiring, and they generally leave you the eff alone after the parking brake is set and the cockpit door opens and ACARS clocks you out. For some of us, the paycut is actually worth that opportunity cost.
What's a SOF tour? I thought I was familiar with most of the terms but haven't heard that one.
 
What's a SOF tour? I thought I was familiar with most of the terms but haven't heard that one.

SOF= Supervisor of Flying. AKA Sitting on the tower with a thumb up my ---, manning the radios, setting the field status, and fielding calls from the muckity mucks about potential weather diverts, runway direction changes for the field, and inbound emergencies. Opening SOF even better, showing up at dark thirty to open up the field. Basically another break-even job. Nobody is happy with how you did your 4-5 hours, best case you break even, but nobody is volunteering to do it for you. Just more qweep suck.

Second Axiom of military life: "We ain't happy until you ain't happy"
 
What's a SOF tour? I thought I was familiar with most of the terms but haven't heard that one.

I'm assuming he is meaning "Supervisor Of Flying"……..it is a ground collateral duty. On the USN/USMC side, it would be called SDO or ODO, though that combines SOF and "Top Three" jobs in one.
 
I'm assuming he is meaning "Supervisor Of Flying"……..it is a ground collateral duty. On the USN/USMC side, it would be called SDO or ODO, though that combines SOF and "Top Three" jobs in one.
Got it. I was thinking more in terms of duty status. If it's as painful as ODO, I think I'd pass. But I'd work Pri-fly for free just to watch deck operations again.
 
Yeah, I guess I didn't mind standing pri-fly……..though we had a real good deal going in my JO squadron where you were the first pri-fly then SDO/ODO the rest of the day until flight ops ended…..so like 0645-0200. I remember one morning, I had landed at 0100 the night before after a 7 hour mission (probably got out of the jet at 0200 after the taxi fam), gone to rats, downed some ambien to counteract the go pills, slept through my alarm, and showed up to CATCC (we were case III that AM) when all of a sudden 2 different jets had dual bleed warning lights (my squadron and the other charlie dudes). I hadn't had coffee yet or a dip and I was basically still asleep. Meanwhile DCAG and the CSG form up behind me, second guessing everything I said on rep. I said things like "emergency jettison" when I meant "select jett" because I was so tired. Love me some duty :)
 
Yeah, I guess I didn't mind standing pri-fly……..though we had a real good deal going in my JO squadron where you were the first pri-fly then SDO/ODO the rest of the day until flight ops ended…..so like 0645-0200. I remember one morning, I had landed at 0100 the night before after a 7 hour mission (probably got out of the jet at 0200 after the taxi fam), gone to rats, downed some ambien to counteract the go pills, slept through my alarm, and showed up to CATCC (we were case III that AM) when all of a sudden 2 different jets had dual bleed warning lights (my squadron and the other charlie dudes). I hadn't had coffee yet or a dip and I was basically still asleep. Meanwhile DCAG and the CSG form up behind me, second guessing everything I said on rep. I said things like "emergency jettison" when I meant "select jett" because I was so tired. Love me some duty :)

Good reason to be an LSO. One good thing about the AF is that at least they do understand things like crew rest and duty day.
 
Go fly, get the experience, then get selected for test pilot school. Best of both worlds.
 
That's my great friend "Mover". AFRC Viper and now Hornet Aggressor guy. And accomplished author to boot! Great guy all around. Tough life he's had getting and staying in the fighter cockpit. An inspirational story all around.

And yes, he's spot on regarding the QWEEP that is making all of us DOD pilots run for the exits. The ancillary garbage is out of control, it sucks the fun and sense of accomplishment out of the job, especially once you move up a little in the totem pole and get starved from actual flying. I got two SOF tours next week myself. Fly twice if I'm lucky. That's just not enough to keep me around. Fighter/bomber guys have it worse on the sortie count.

Like it's been beat to death already, airlines are hiring, and they generally leave you the eff alone after the parking brake is set and the cockpit door opens and ACARS clocks you out. For some of us, the paycut is actually worth that opportunity cost.


And not just airlines either. In helos I get paid to fly and that's it. No additional duties (fire marshal, NVG officer, public works officer, fridge *****) and no training events / leadership courses completely unrelated to flying.

It is a pay cut but with retirement, I make more than in the military and do half the work I used to.
 
Like listening to my son; he's calling it a day at 20 years. . . no patience left for the careerists and BS. Once belief in your leadership is gone, time to look elsewhere.
 
LOL Yeah,right. The reality of that situation is much more complex than you're portraying.
I think you know all this already, but I'll spell it out for the benefit of the gallery..

BTW **TL;DR warning**
I get it, I do. I can't speak from first hand experience as you can. I'm a 16 year guard guy who just retired. Nine years on AD before that. My 16 in the guard consisted of traditional, technician and traditional again. Airline guy, though, so I know it's all a different frame of reference. I do know that we have/have had several pilots in the unit who have done full 20 year careers in the guard and have held an outside non-flying job. I know it's not easy, but one of our guys just put in for a waiver to the MSD so he can go past 28 years as a Lt Col. More power to him, great guy, and this is his flying fix.

FYI... KC-135 unit.
 
IMHO...If he wants to fly and the opportunity for an aviation slot presents itself he should grab it and run with it. Those opportunities do not come around multiple times in your life. Regardless of the job military aviation still looks great on a resume and he could use that experience and engineering background to land a job with a Defense company after he gets out.
 
Back in the 80's my then girlfriend said it was her or the Navy? I went through AOCS in 1985, the rest fell by the wayside. IF a person is so disposed, a Navy flight slot just about can't be turned down. It's not for everybody, and no guaranties on the outcome, for a host of reasons.

Oh the memories. "Roger ball Prowler, 24 knots, slightly axial, decks up, don't chase it".
 
Back
Top