Military aviators and/or Engineers?

[Mike Smith]

Someone I know who recently graduated college with a civil engineering degree and who has a very good job was just notified that he was accepted into OCS as a Naval aviator. He started the process over a year ago and had basically given up hope of getting a slot and had really settled in to the engineering job. What advice would you give this young man? Stay the engineering course or fly?

 

[Craig]

He's got to ask if he wants to go fly???

 

[Timbeck2]

Sounds like a personal decision to me. It it boils down to whatever HE really wants to do.

 

[Sac Arrow]

This probably isn't the answer he's looking for, but what about OCS for a line officer position? Pushing ships and Seabees around is still more fun than supervising flunkies on CAD workstations.

 

[Mike Smith]

I absolutely get that it's a personal decision. I'm looking for more practical nuts and bolts advice. Stuff he may not know that would help the decision.

 

[N3368K]

Go fly. He can always return to engineering after he does a Navy tour or career. I had friends who did full military careers in non-engineering roles (Infantry, Aviation, Artillery, etc), retired and went to work as engineers or professors teaching various engineering courses. During their careers, they picked up Masters and a few PhD on the government's dime, spent time teaching a Service Academies, etc.

 

[Timbeck2]

Does he want to go kill people and get shot at? Does he want to invest with the military and the time required for him to train and then the time required for him to pay the military back for that training, usually 6-8 years? I can't comment on the pros and cons of the engineering gig as I don't know.

 

[Sac Arrow]

To the extent he can retain his career through retirement, military officer retirement pensions are pretty nice. I think we need to know more about his (presumably civilian) engineering job. If it's public sector with a fat retirement plan and healthy benefits, it's probably competitive with the slot he's pursuing in that respect. If he's a consultant, there is no safety net so there is no benefit for staying on other than to establish a work history. It's something you don't think about when you first start, but you think about it every day when retirement is on the horizon.

 

[Bill]

Go fly. He can always return to engineering after he does a Navy tour or career.

This. I went in to OCS as part of the NUPOC program, was supposed to go to subs. A medical issue[1] found late in the training process medically disqualified me from being a line officer. They told me I could remain as a staff officer, but decided to move on. It would have been interesting but life took me on a different path.

[1] Not found on all the initial medical screenings. Grrr.

 

[jsstevens]

In my 20's this would have been a no brainer. Go fly. But that's because from early elementary school on I wanted to be a fighter pilot. Since I wear glasses, it was a non-starter. So I've had an excellent career (so far) in Software Engineering. Currently CTO of a simulation company.

What does he want to do?

John

 

[Velocity173]

I would think that if he applied and was accepted into AOCS, it's been something he's wanted to do most of his life. To turn his back on it now, he'd always wonder what if.

For me, it's everything I wanted to do since I was maybe 13 yrs old. Although the reality of flying in the Army was a rude awakening, it was still the most rewarding, satisfying time in my life. There are experiences, good and bad that can never be matched in the civilian world. I would'nt have changed a thing.

 

[Frogs97]

I think it all depends on what he values more. If he's even just a decent engineer and manages his affairs well he will accrue much more wealth if he stays the course as an engineer. But, if he has even the slightest inkling that he might want to fly for the military, he needs to jump on this now. Like they said, he can always come back to engineering, he likely will never be looking at a UPT slot again. And if he has military flying experience there's a good chance that engineering job could be in aviation, too.

 

[falconkidding]

I'd go into the navy in a heartbeat to fly. Great retirement good pay (o3s are 85-100k +- bonuses) Chances are he could get the 18. If he hates it he's out in his early 30s with the chance to go back to civilian life. If he can stay in he's retired in his mid 40s and could still probably go to the majors and fly. Everyone I've ever talked to hasn't really regretted military service. Even my dad whos career didn't go how he wanted (graduated top of class got stuck as t38 instructor first assignment) still met some great people and had fun. Plus if he went through the PITA that is applying to OCS as a civilian I'm sure its something he really wanted to do.

 

[Cooter]

It depends on how bad he wants to fly. It is a big commitment and less than half of the winged Naval Aviators get jets. You have to compete and be at the top of your class to guarantee jets. I would not want to fly P-3s or helicopters, which is the option if you don't select jets. But lots of people do and enjoy it. It's a gamble but I would think he could always go back to engineering if it didn't work out. Not many people get the chance to land on carriers and drop bombs.

 

[cgrab]

We all know that young people make the best decisions. After all, most of us decided what we were going to do for the rest of our lives when we were only 17 or 18 and we all turned out just fine, RIGHT.

My advise to him and others at that age: do what young people do when you are young. If you can make it in the military then give it a shot. Under the new retirement plan, any work with the Government will result in some form of pension when you are 60. After the initial hitch if it doesn't suit you, transfer to the Reserves and get a job. The Reserves will keep you in shape, in touch with what is going on in the world and give you good leadership training that can transfer to your civilian job. You will also add to that retirement in the Reserves.

For your friend, civil engineering is a broad field and there are parts that lean towards a career (city manager, waste water, environment) and there are parts that don't (remediation, facilities management). Also, there are allot of engineer majors that ended up as CE's because they couldn't make it elsewhere, so one has to be a go getter to get to the top. He needs to consider these things on his journey-and make a good decision that will last him the rest of his life.

 

[hindsight2020]

I'd go into the navy in a heartbeat to fly. Great retirement good pay (o3s are 85-100k +- bonuses) Chances are he could get the 18. If he hates it he's out in his early 30s with the chance to go back to civilian life. If he can stay in he's retired in his mid 40s and could still probably go to the majors and fly. Everyone I've ever talked to hasn't really regretted military service. Even my dad whos career didn't go how he wanted (graduated top of class got stuck as t38 instructor first assignment) still met some great people and had fun. Plus if he went through the PITA that is applying to OCS as a civilian I'm sure its something he really wanted to do.

First world problems. He would have been doing backflips at drop night if his generation had been threatened with RPAs when he was a booger-eatin' FAIP. I much prefer my T-38 instructor job to the Buff. Everyday and twice on Sunday. To each their own.

 

[falconkidding]

First world problems. He would have been doing backflips at drop night if his generation had been threatened with RPAs when he was a booger-eatin' FAIP. I much prefer my T-38 instructor job to the Buff. Everyday and twice on Sunday. To each their own.

Yeah thats what I think, i'd kill for the chance to fly even a T6 II. He seemed to think being an IP was a bad thing career wise though.

 

[kkoran]

Doesn't the term 'naval aviator' encompass both pilots and naval flight officers and, therefore a chance that he could end up not actually flying a plane?

 

[Velocity173]

Doesn't the term 'naval aviator' encompass both pilots and naval flight officers and, therefore a chance that he could end up not actually flying a plane?

I think it's two completely separate MOSs and you know before you sign your contract if you're going NFO or aviator. I think back in the day, guys who washed out of pilot training went NFO or if they had bad eyesight. Not sure if they still give them the option to go NFO. Eyesight is a non issue these days as well.

 

[Cooter]

I think it's two completely separate MOSs and you know before you sign your contract if you're going NFO or aviator. I think back in the day, guys who washed out of pilot training went NFO or if they had bad eyesight. Not sure if they still give them the option to go NFO. Eyesight is a non issue these days as well.

Yep, they are two different tracks and different contracts. Pilots don't even see the NFOs until they get to their assigned aircraft (except maybe API). Eyesight is still an issue but LASIK is approved.

 

[Velocity173]

Yep, they are two different tracks and different contracts. Pilots don't even see the NFOs until they get to their assigned aircraft (except maybe API). Eyesight is still an issue but LASIK is approved.

Yeah figured LASIK was good to go now. When I got picked up in the Army you had to have at least 20/20 near and far. A year later they allowed glasses to get to 20/20 and a couple years after that they allowed LASIK to get to that mark. Had several students who said try never would've been able to fly if it weren't for the modified eyesight standards.

 

[luvflyin]

Fly Forest, Fly

 

[PaulS]

Fly

 

[somorris]

Hi Mike.

I am a semi-retired civil engineer. I also know several young people serving in the military. The young people I know are planning on getting out because the military has changed a lot over the past few years. Add to that your friend may end up not flying or maybe even sitting at a computer flying drones, and it doesn't look nearly as attractive. Civil engineering is a great field, and with all the emphasis on infrastructure now, I think it will be great for a while. This is a tough question, to be sure. My inclination, were I in his position, would be to try to get in the Air National Guard, fly there, and keep his day job. Unless he can be pretty certain he will be flying fighters off a carrier in a few years, I think he will be happier staying where he is. That being said, the retirement option at 40 something is very attractive.

 

[hindsight2020]

Hi Mike.

I am a semi-retired civil engineer. I also know several young people serving in the military. The young people I know are planning on getting out because the military has changed a lot over the past few years. Add to that your friend may end up not flying or maybe even sitting at a computer flying drones, and it doesn't look nearly as attractive. Civil engineering is a great field, and with all the emphasis on infrastructure now, I think it will be great for a while. This is a tough question, to be sure. My inclination, were I in his position, would be to try to get in the Air National Guard, fly there, and keep his day job. Unless he can be pretty certain he will be flying fighters off a carrier in a few years, I think he will be happier staying where he is. That being said, the retirement option at 40 something is very attractive.

Not disagreeing, but just clarifying. Military retirement is a misnomer. Neither the enlisted nor officer retirement is enough by itself to sustain a servicemember's purchasing standards in retirement as they did in military service. Ergo, it is understood to be a half-retirement. There is a de facto expectation of civilian work post-military in order to maintain the same standard of living in the possibly most household-expensive decades of a primary breadwinner's life (40-60). Just throwing that out there.

This isn't a 75% LEO pension we're talking about in here. Matter of fact, after FY18 every new entrant will be forced into the new retirement system of max 40% pension, and the rest is a 1% B-fund going into a TSP (401k) that now has the same match structure as the civil service (the military TSP used to have no match at all). I'm glad I'm given the option of choosing; I obviously will be choosing to stay under the old system. They can keep their 401k scammy false dichotomy "but it's portable!" argument. If it comes out of my W-2, it's not a benefit yo....

 

[somorris]

Well, Hindsight2020, if I were in his shoes, that would wrap up my decision! I would stay in my current job. Good information!

 

[Mike Smith]

Thanks for all of the discussion! This is very helpful. Full disclosure, this is my son. I am a high school (barely) graduate and have had to scrap and claw to have a reasonable standard of living. The kid has a good head on his shoulders. The way this all started is he minored in nuclear engineering and was interested in nupoc, but his beer drinking freshman year hit his GPA bad enough that he couldn't qualify. The Navy approached him about flying. He does like flying and had a few hours toward his private when this all went down. As much as I love flying, it would be an easy decision for me. He is more practical and I wanted some real world information to help him with. Thanks again everyone.

 

[Velocity173]

Possibly Cooter or 35 AOA could provide a picture of what AOCS, flight school and after will entail. How many hours to expect, what his non flying days will look like, how much fun he'll have in SERE, etc.

A lot of people have dreams of flying in the military but they don't fully grasp the obligations outside the cockpit.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Thanks for all of the discussion! This is very helpful. Full disclosure, this is my son. I am a high school (barely) graduate and have had to scrap and claw to have a reasonable standard of living. The kid has a good head on his shoulders. The way this all started is he minored in nuclear engineering and was interested in nupoc, but his beer drinking freshman year hit his GPA bad enough that he couldn't qualify. The Navy approached him about flying. He does like flying and had a few hours toward his private when this all went down. As much as I love flying, it would be an easy decision for me. He is more practical and I wanted some real world information to help him with. Thanks again everyone.

Let's see... sit around in a submarine stateroom dangling red keys for months on end, or pull G's in an F18 in the morning and go clubbing with hot blondes that evening... no brainer to me.

 

[Mike Smith]

Lol, I agree Sac.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Possibly Cooter or 35 AOA could provide a picture of what AOCS, flight school and after will entail. How many hours to expect, what his non flying days will look like, how much fun he'll have in SERE, etc.

A lot of people have dreams of flying in the military but they don't fully grasp the obligations outside the cockpit.

Oh I had lots of fun in SERE, as cadre haha.

 

[Velocity173]

Oh I had lots of fun in SERE, as cadre haha.

Bastard! Oh well, I did SERE B so I didn't have to deal with your shenanigans.

 

[nauga]

Oh I had lots of fun in SERE, as cadre haha.

Things suddenly just became a lot clearer.

On topic, it's a heck of an opportunity and a year into an engineering career is not all that deep. AOCS is a great opportunity with the degree and a little experience to fall back on.

edit: Just noticed the application was a year in the works, not the engineering job. Still, definitely an opportunity worth pursuing while he's young.

Nauga,
and the runway behind him

 

[Hank S]

Mike, he can fly now and engineer later. The chance to fly for the Navy later won't come along. To be sure, military retirement benefits are great (I'll tell you about my dad's sometime), but just because he heads merrily off to Pensacola doesn't mean he needs to stay through retirement.

On a more practical matter, how will he tolerate military discipline through OCS and flight training? It's regimented in ways that civilians just can't imagine . . . Modern military flying is much less relaxed, too. Just in case he washes out of flight school, what options would he have? My dad went through Pcola as an Officer Cadet, those who washed out served their agreed-in-advance terms as enlisted rather than officers--is he ready for that? Is that still the option?

P.S.--any plans for the weekend?

 

[Hank S]

On the other hand, I busted my Navy flight physical for less than perfect eyesight and had to think up a new career at age 17. Being an engineer afforded me the ability to become a pilot and aircraft owner. So it's not all bad.

 

[Velocity173]

On the other hand, I busted my Navy flight physical for less than perfect eyesight and had to think up a new career at age 17. Being an engineer afforded me the ability to become a pilot and aircraft owner. So it's not all bad.

Vision ain't the only thing. My class 1 military flight physical makes my annual FAA class 2 look like a joke. Never been prodded and poked so many times in my life.

 

[Cooter]

Possibly Cooter or 35 AOA could provide a picture of what AOCS, flight school and after will entail. How many hours to expect, what his non flying days will look like, how much fun he'll have in SERE, etc.

A lot of people have dreams of flying in the military but they don't fully grasp the obligations outside the cockpit.

It's no longer AOCS, just OCS. Then API. The OCS part is no fun, but API and pilot training are a blast. At least I thought so. SERE is good training but I wouldn't want to do it again. The hard part starts after training and you have real responsibilities other than just learning to fly. I wouldn't recommend it unless there was a real drive and desire to be a military pilot. Many people wash out along the way.

 

[GlennAB1]

If flying is your passion, fly while you can. That's what my brother did till diabetes ended it. He had his Engineering degrees to fall back on.

 

[35 AoA]

I was a mech E in college, and currently a mil aviator. I obviously have a lot of friends from school that went into engineering full time, whom I still keep in touch with. I think there are a couple important points:

1) Going military pilot is going to more than likely take him forever out of the trade of "engineering". Might make it back someday in management or something, but unless he/she does the test pilot school route, you are talking about coming back to the industry as a 33-35+ year old (at a minimum) with absolutely no experience in engineering other than school….which of course amounts to nothing. Meanwhile you can get hired immediately by the majors, or can go into any number of well paying management or contract/consulting positions, which are only enhanced money wise by the clearance you may have held on active duty. Going back to square one as a new engineer makes less than no sense. So only the really committed would probably do that, given then extreme pay cut they would take.

2) Nearly 10 years into my career, my engineer friends have only recently started to even out with me in terms of salary……which kind of plays into my previous point. Believe it or not, the money is pretty good as a military junior officer on flight pay/making deployments/etc. Obviously there are some junior engineering jobs (software, network, IT kinds of things to name a few) which pay pretty well right off the bat given the right connections, but by and large, entry to mid level engineering jobs in more traditional fields are going to pay well south of what you make as an active duty pilot.

That is all purely based on personal experience, and mileage will certainly vary, but I'd say the "friend" really just needs to make a decision about what they want to do, and realize they probably won't end up doing the other option later.

 

[hindsight2020]

Vision ain't the only thing. My class 1 military flight physical makes my annual FAA class 2 look like a joke. Never been prodded and poked so many times in my life.

And yet, they only let you exercise class III privileges in the civilian side. That along with my current battle (hitting my head against a wall with the part 61 shenanigans due to FAA not milcomping the stupid ATP license) are part of the mil/FAA disjointedness that makes you go hmmmm.....