Might Get Lucky...

TRocket

TRocket

Line Up and Wait
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Nov 10, 2014
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Huntersville, NC
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Uncle Jesse
Quick background, I fly for work, as a passenger, pretty much every week, 30 some weeks a year. We fly charter (737 with several other organizations). There is a decent possibility my company is going to be getting a King Air in the next couple of months.

I have done some research and I think this will work, but wanted to get some input. I am an instrument rated private pilot (no commercial). To my understanding, if I get my mutli between now and then, I should be able to fly right seat and legally log the time. I wouldn't be paid to fly and me being on the plane is incidental to my job (would be on the plane anyway), so that should take care of any commercial complications I would assume?

I really appreciate any input, it isn't a done deal yet but would be a great opportunity to log some hours for free and more importantly get some good experience if it works out.
 
Get your ME and you'd have to be sole manipulator of the controls to log it. Pretty sure that would work.
 
If it's on autopilot for the majority of the flight, there won't be much "sole manipulator" of the controls. :D
 
Don't you also need a type rating for a King Air? Do King Airs require SIC? Can you log it if you're not a required crew member?
 
labbadabba said:
Don't you also need a type rating for a King Air? Do King Airs require SIC? Can you log it if you're not a required crew member?
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Only the 300/350 have type rating (over 12,500 lbs). Sic is not required by type. It can be required if the PIC has a limitation requiring it.
 
Velocity173 said:
If it's on autopilot for the majority of the flight, there won't be much "sole manipulator" of the controls. :D
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Autopilot time counts as sole manipulator. FAA Legal Interpretation

See page 2, paragraph 2:

The FAA considers a pilot's use and management of the autopilot to be the equivalent of manipulating the controls, just as one manages other flight control systems, such as trim or a yaw dampener. The autopilot system's sophistication does not affect a pilot's responsibility to manipulate and manage all control systems, including an autopilot, appropriately. Therefore, a pilot may log PIC flight time as the sole manipulator of the controls for the time in which he or she engages an autopilot.
Click to expand...
 
NJP_MAN said:
Only the 300/350 have type rating (over 12,500 lbs). Sic is not required by type. It can be required if the PIC has a limitation requiring it.
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There's also a version of the 250 that has a max gross over 12,500 lbs and requires a type rating.
 
No need to worry about the compensation/hire issue as there's no chance you'll ever be "acting" as PIC of the King Air (and those rules only apply to persons acting as PIC). You can log PIC time as sole manipulator so long as you're appropriately rated for the airplane (category and class). So yes, if you get your multi, you can log PIC time as sole manipulator without any worry about the compensation/hire rules.
 
NJP_MAN said:
Only the 300/350 have type rating (over 12,500 lbs). Sic is not required by type. It can be required if the PIC has a limitation requiring it.
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I guess I was under the impression that all turbine aircraft required a type rating. The OP might need a high altitude endorsement as well, yes?
 
labbadabba said:
I guess I was under the impression that all turbine aircraft required a type rating. The OP might need a high altitude endorsement as well, yes?
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All turbojet aircraft require a type rating. Turboprops and anything else only require a type rating if they have a max gross above 12,500 lbs or if the FAA otherwise determines that they need one.
 
Why not get your commercial with the multi? Some corporations require two pilots for insurance. If you are commercial multi then you MIGHT could qualify for the second pilot position if required by insurance. Seems like this would make you more valuable since they are paying you anyway. This would allow you to log legitimate time and not have an insurance problem. You will find that insurance drives who is in the cockpit rather than the FAA in corporate operations. Just a thought.
 
ronnieh said:
Why not get your commercial with the multi? Some corporations require two pilots for insurance. If you are commercial multi then you MIGHT could qualify for the second pilot position if required by insurance. Seems like this would make you more valuable since they are paying you anyway. This would allow you to log legitimate time and not have an insurance problem. You will find that insurance drives who is in the cockpit rather than the FAA in corporate operations. Just a thought.
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The fact the insurance company requires two pilots does not make the time "legitimate." He's still not a required crew member, and as such can only log time if he's the sole manipulator of the controls (whether acting as PIC or not). You can't log SIC time in a single-pilot airplane just because the insurance requires you to be there.
 
labbadabba said:
The OP might need a high altitude endorsement as well, yes?
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No high altitude or high performance/complex endorsement required to log PIC time based on sole manipulator status. All you need is category and class. Now he cannot ACT as PIC in a King Air without complex, high performance and high altitude endorsement.
 
The issue here is not going to be the PIC logging regs, it's going to be the insurance company and your employer. It's highly doubtful that insurance would let you touch the controls, or even sit in the seat, and the company is probably going to balk at any kind of liability from having you up there. If you were to get your commercial multi rating rather than just private this may change a little.
 
bradg33 said:
The fact the insurance company requires two pilots does not make the time "legitimate." He's still not a required crew member, and as such can only log time if he's the sole manipulator of the controls (whether acting as PIC or not). You can't log SIC time in a single-pilot airplane just because the insurance requires you to be there.
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Nothing was said about logging SIC time. Duh! In all operations that I have ever seen that requires two pilots per insurance and/or company policy the pilots swap legs. The OP may have to ride in the right seat all the time but, he can still fly from that seat and be getting legitimate time. In other words time that is actually worth something rather than just riding.
 
MassPilot said:
There's also a version of the 250 that has a max gross over 12,500 lbs and requires a type rating.
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Thanks for the info, was it something like only 5 of them were made or is it a pretty common variant ?
 
very interested in the answer of the above post by njp
 
I THINK the B200 was marketed as the KA 250. It had a "commuter option" or some such thing that allowed an increase in max weight to something like 13, 200 pounds. Most of them out there are the standard 12,500 pounds. I don't know how one got the option.
Edit: I think they had the same TO HP as a stright 200 but had a different engine perhaps the -52, they had a higher thermodynamic rating allowing a higher altitude before they 'temped out". This is all from an old foggy memory so the details may be wrong.
 
ronnieh said:
Nothing was said about logging SIC time. Duh! In all operations that I have ever seen that requires two pilots per insurance and/or company policy the pilots swap legs. The OP may have to ride in the right seat all the time but, he can still fly from that seat and be getting legitimate time. In other words time that is actually worth something rather than just riding.
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Even if the insurance and company policies don't require two pilots, if the PIC lets him sit in the right seat and manipulate the controls, he can log that time. It's no less "legitimate" just because nobody is requiring him to be there.
 
My last comment. Yes, he could set in the right seat and watch the AP fly the plane. No corporate pilot is going to let a private pilot take off, fly, shoot approaches and land a turbo prop with the bosses in back knowing the insurance would not be valid if he bent the plane. Under my scenario he can actually FLY the plane as PIC with the blessings of all involved making the time IMO "legitimate". Like I said just a thought. You are welcome to disagree and nit pick all you want. Read what stinkbug wrote post #16. I was following up on his very good comment.
 
PIC might allow him to TO & land on the empty legs. I did that coming up.
 
mscard, sort of my point except, I doubt any corporate pilot is going to turn over a $2million+ airplane to a private pilot. I know for a fact I would not. It was just a thought that since his company is likely use to having 2 pilots they may want to continue that. If they do and the OP had a commercial ticket he might could weasel himself into the insurance/corporate required second pilot seat. (not SIC) Then since he would be going to sim school also he could legitimately fly alternate legs and actually be flying. It was just a thought for the OP to consider. It is going to get old quickly, setting in the right front seat observing how well the AP works.
 
Well you may be right, but I flew empty legs on a KA-200, and a couple of Cheyenne models. Just depends on the situation but I agree the insurance company is the biggest factor, and company policy also.
 
bradg33 said:
Even if the insurance and company policies don't require two pilots, if the PIC lets him sit in the right seat and manipulate the controls, he can log that time. It's no less "legitimate" just because nobody is requiring him to be there.
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That's kind of what I was thinking. A few things I do know, some King Airs require a type rating (over 12,500) and most do not. Even the ones that do, only PIC is required to be typed, SIC only needs to be rated for category and class. I am 99% sure that being a "required crew member" (As far as I know online airline operations require 2) doesn't really matter either (flew as a passenger on a 7 seater king air a few months ago with two pilots, and I am sure the SIC was not required, but highly doubt he wasn't able to log the time). As far as the insurance part of it goes, I see no way that having any bearing whether the FAA would allow you to log the time, the only issue there would be them not allowing it. I'm sure a lot has changed in recent years, but not so long ago, most in my industry flew their guys on king airs (now mostly regional jets). And I don't know how many guys that have been around the business for a while have talked about having to ride up front in a king air for insurance purposes (basically the way I understand it, once upon a time, they didn't really give a Sh it whether you were a pilot or not, just wanted an ass in the seat). And I'm sure my company would not care as long as their insurance didn't. The jist of what I have gotten from everyone, I can pretty much log it as long as I get a multi, but not sure how the insurance company would feel about it, right?
 
Velocity173 said:
I think the bigger question would be, is his company going to allow him either to manipulate the controls or even engage the autopilot in an aircraft that only requires one pilot.
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Generally not allowed on a part 135 (charter) flight and even if the airplane is flown under part 91 the company probably won't allow this when pax are being carried. On a deadhead flight it would likely be allowed.
 
Definitely won't be part 135. The company likely will not care, the only resistance I could possibly see would be the insurance company. My only question really is will the FAA count it?
 
@TRocket , I had this conversation recently with a KingAir 135 driver - his insurance company allows him to train SICs that are then greenlighted for that insurance (smaller bird, no type rating required.)

I know another private pilot who got loads of right seat KingAir time that he couldn't log.

My recommendation is to get your commercial ay-sap (per our conversation) then do a multiengine commercial/instrument checkride (not much different than private multi ride) so that you can log your King Air time. Were it me, I'd start now to chair-fly the King Air and get the training materials so you're ready when it comes.
 
What is the criteria for a plane to require a SIC? E.g. are there any STC'S that would change a non-SIC airplane into an SIC-required one?
 
TRocket said:
Definitely won't be part 135. The company likely will not care, the only resistance I could possibly see would be the insurance company. My only question really is will the FAA count it?
Click to expand...
The FAA will count logged PIC time anytime you are the "sole manipultor" of an aircraft that you have the ratings to fly. They've been talking about limiting that to aircraft that you have the required endorsements to act as PIC but I'm hopeful that will never come to pass. So if an airplane has more than one engine you must have AMEL (or AMES if apropriate) on your certificate but you could log time flying a retractable taildragger pressurized twin 600HP turboprop with no high performance, complex, TW, or high altitude endorsements as long as your cert says AMEL and the airplane didn't require a type rating (i.e at or below 12,500 lbs MGW).
 
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