Mig-29?

[EvilEagle]

When the USA got to fly against the MiG-29s that Germany got after unification, they were shocked. The MiGs won every simulated dogfight with the F-16s because they had a 30° off-boresight helmet-mounted tracking system for their AA-11 IR missiles. They did not have to point their nose right at the F-16s to get a lock, just in the general vicinity. The USA had nothing similar in operational use.

Additionally, the MiG-29 did not have fly-by-wire controls, and there were no software G-limiters. Both airframes have operating limits of 9G, but in a tight spot the MiG drivers could over-G their airplanes to over 12G.

The quality of western pilots might be better, but if the MiG-29 loses a dogfight to similar vintage airplanes, it's definitely not the airplane's fault.

Easy big guy. It's not a sky is falling type of deal. I've fought the MiG 29 in my 4th gen fighter. The HMS for the Fulcrum is sweet (we've got one now, but didn't have one when I fought the 29). It's a nice luxury, but saying they "won every fight" is just plain wrong. No missile, tracking system, jet or pilot is perfect. You can beat that platform (even against the HMS) - you just have to know how to fight it. It wasn't so much that the jet was better, it's that the US pilots didn't train against HMS threats then. (and they were flying F-16's which are the JV team in dogfights anyway...)

We don't have fly by wire either and we love it, but no one is over-G'ing their airplanes in training to win (even the Germans).

Many times we win the dogfights PRECISELY because of the jet. It's not any better or worse than ours. Even if you aren't that great, you only have to stay neutral with it for about three 360's and it will be out of gas.

 

[bullwinkle]

Easy big guy. It's not a sky is falling type of deal. I've fought the MiG 29 in my 4th gen fighter. The HMS for the Fulcrum is sweet (we've got one now, but didn't have one when I fought the 29). It's a nice luxury, but saying they "won every fight" is just plain wrong. No missile, tracking system, jet or pilot is perfect. You can beat that platform (even against the HMS) - you just have to know how to fight it. It wasn't so much that the jet was better, it's that the US pilots didn't train against HMS threats then. (and they were flying F-16's which are the JV team in dogfights anyway...)

We don't have fly by wire either and we love it, but no one is over-G'ing their airplanes in training to win (even the Germans).

Many times we win the dogfights PRECISELY because of the jet. It's not any better or worse than ours. Even if you aren't that great, you only have to stay neutral with it for about three 360's and it will be out of gas.

I didn't mean pilots would over-g in training, just that they could in combat if needed. Not that they'd stay conscious long...

The article I read was by a USAF pilot involved in the first flight where they were testing, all 1 v 1 engagements. They did six of them and the MiG won six. Of course more airplanes in the engagement would change things, and you can certainly develop tactics to play to your strengths.

My point was not that the MiG-29 is some kind of voodoo magic, just that in the west we tend to vastly underestimate what Russia was able to do with often less advanced tech.

 

[EvilEagle]

The Eagle could do the same thing (over-G in combat) - even the toy-jet drivers have an override for their AOA limitation. As I've mentioned on several other threads though - G's aren't everything. I do know a guy who stayed awake (because he was about to die if he didn't make it out of the dive) - 12.6 G's for just over 3 seconds. It's amazing what adrenaline can do!

Def the first time I'm sure it caught a bunch of guys off guard. But, just like anything else, it's all about training for the right thing. Once the training started, it became much less of a threat. Even more now with our helmet which is a better system.

I wouldn't say we vastly underestimate what Russia does - at least not in the last 15 years that I've been in the USAF. Of course, different communities train (or not) differently so I can't vouch for the falcon bubbas.