Lindberg
Final Approach
You don't see any irony in this post? You don't need more than 6.5 hours of fuel. He didn't need more than 1500' of runway.
Midfield Takeoffs
- Thread starter OkieFlyer
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Lot of deer where I live, so comfort with touch and go makes me happier, so I do them often. Not sure I'd want to ride with someone too timid or unpracticed to execute a T&G competently.
1500 geet is good enough for me, alone in our 172, for takeoff.
1500 geet is good enough for me, alone in our 172, for takeoff.
Ravioli
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I took @flyin'gator up in Candy once. We went over to Meacham and did a touch and go on what Lisa calls "the baby runway." 4005 x 75
I landed a little long and we were rolling along... Rick starts calling out distance remaining. 2000, 1900... he gets to 1100... I says, oh I guess we should fly now. I pushed in the black UP knob.
RV grins all around.
I landed a little long and we were rolling along... Rick starts calling out distance remaining. 2000, 1900... he gets to 1100... I says, oh I guess we should fly now. I pushed in the black UP knob.
RV grins all around.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
I do to, but you left out the part that gets students in trouble. While they are doing all that with their eyes and hands they forget their feet.
wrbix
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Pilot Lite
I do enough go-arounds that my T&G skills are not lacking......not timidity - just a case of personal limits.
Every landing is an aborted go-around
Ravioli
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Oh, and put me squarely in the No T&G camp. I always prefer Stop-n-Go's because they assure I am going to get the full p-factor and force me to apply rudder appropriately. Some T&G's the wheels roll but the airspeed never gets much below rotation speed.
[My Opinion -- I'm not a CFI]
[My Opinion -- I'm not a CFI]
That's great!
Doing touch-n-goes at Cartersville years ago the CFI pulls the power. I immediately shoved the yoke forward with my left hand and slapped full flaps with my right hand. Boy did that get his attention.
He was expecting a stunned "deer in the headlights" reaction. I might have been a noob student pilot, but I was a 40+ year old that worked in Corporate America with people throwing curve balls or stabbing me in the back without notice. Reacting and making decisions at the drop of hat are the norm for me. He asked if I thought I would have stopped on the runway I told him I did, but if we didn't we'd be in the dirt/grass at the end and that was much better than being in the pine trees past that.
I've done mid-field departures before. Actually I did one in Melbourne, FL a couple of weeks ago. That one wasn't in the exact middle. I probably had around 6,000'+ of the 10,181' runway. I'm good with 6,000'.
I wouldn't do it at 1,500' remaining. I'd back taxi for that remaining 1,500'.
But on a 10,000'+ runway? Heck yeah I'd do a mid-field departure to save taxiing another mile down. Especially if they were getting me off early and not waiting in line behind other planes.
I wouldn't do it at 1,500' remaining. I'd back taxi for that remaining 1,500'.
But on a 10,000'+ runway? Heck yeah I'd do a mid-field departure to save taxiing another mile down. Especially if they were getting me off early and not waiting in line behind other planes.
keen9
Pre-takeoff checklist
I land long often (30L at KCPS going to the NW ramp). There is temptation to cut it short often, but I avoid it. Taxiing a mile takes two whole minutes. Then there is this:
https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20150602X70621
" Instead of using the full runway length of 6,179 ft, the pilot elected an intersection takeoff with about 2,570 ft of available runway. Calculations showed that, had the pilot used the entire runway for takeoff, sufficient runway for a landing following the loss of engine power would likely have been available."
Making a mid-field takeoff routine is just accepting less safety, and it can hurt. There are some other comments about intersection takeoffs to get around ground traffic which are likely not using up much runway. That is a lot less risk than mid-field.
https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20150602X70621
" Instead of using the full runway length of 6,179 ft, the pilot elected an intersection takeoff with about 2,570 ft of available runway. Calculations showed that, had the pilot used the entire runway for takeoff, sufficient runway for a landing following the loss of engine power would likely have been available."
Making a mid-field takeoff routine is just accepting less safety, and it can hurt. There are some other comments about intersection takeoffs to get around ground traffic which are likely not using up much runway. That is a lot less risk than mid-field.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
It's not about not being competent to do them. It's about limiting unnecessary risk.
I'm competent enough to roll my 182, but I don't.
The other thing that I don't believe I've seen mentioned is that a touch-n-go is (or at least tends to be) harder on the equipment. So, if your renting a trainer, sure, crash & dash all day long, who cares? It's not yours.
I'll be a bit more respectful of my equipment though, thanks.
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If I did stop and go’s or full stop taxi back at my training airport, I would have never gotten my license. Some airports, full stop taxi backs are doable. Others, like my airport, I’d only get to do a few of them before my flight block expires because of how busy the airport is.
EdFred
Taxi to Parking
Well yeah, if you pull the throttle all the way to idle, slam the gear on the patch, and jam everything forward. But, if you grease it, start a roll out, and ease the throttle back in I can't see it being any different than full stop and taxiing back. In fact, when I do them (rare occasion now) I don't touch the brakes. So I could make the argument that my TnG's are easier on my equipment. Well not *my* equipment, but the plane's equipment.
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SoonerAviator
We did TnG's almost exclusively during my training just to work in more landings when making runs around the patch. I can't imagine any reason they would be harder on the aircraft than a full stop, either. You aren't even using the brakes most of the time, so no wear there; flaps are going to get reset either way, too. As you mentioned, as long as you aren't slamming the throttle/mixture/prop levers around, it should be fairly benign in comparison to a full stop. Not having to start from a full stop may even be better for the engine since it shouldn't have to work as hard to get to Vr.
This isn't to say there isn't more risk involved on a TnG due to momentum and reset of the aircraft, but on simple aircraft like a C172, it's probably minimal distraction in the cockpit to flip an electric flap lever and reset trim with a swipe or two, then apply power.
I'm always tempted to just depart from my house (I'm about 1900' from the end of the 2900' runway and as long as I've broken ground, the terrain drops 170' off the end of the runway), but I still taxi back to the end. Landing, I feel I've messed up if I'm not slowed down enough to turn into my lot.
Crashnburn
Pattern Altitude
You'll probably exceed the gross weight limit with 4 adult males on board, esp. if you have more than an hours worth of fuel. Don't have my POM handy, so can't say for sure.Yeah, you should probably top off that 172 when you've got 4 adult males climbing in.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
Those two are nowhere close to the same severity... And in fact, given that Okie is a big guy like me and takes other people flying with him, full fuel might put him over gross.
Kansas Flyer
Pre-takeoff checklist
I frequently "land long" at the home strip when landing to the north since the ramp and my hangar are at the far end. It gives me a shorter taxi and lets me get clear quicker.
What I actually do is fly a normal approach and keep just a touch of power in so that I float along in ground effect, when i'm about to where I want to be I cut power and let her land. I figure that's safer than flying my approach as if I wanted to land long since that would be giving up half or more of the available landing surface.
On our 5,500 runway, if landing east (our FBO is on the far east end of the airport), we'll routinely let the tower know we're landing long. Even landing half way down the runway we have 2,750', conservatively three times what's required to land it.
Eric Stoltz
Line Up and Wait
I'm pretty sure my TnGs take less runaway than a full stop (unless I'm trying to stop in 700'). They definitely take less room than a stop and or go.
Much better for me to do TnGs when everyone else is out smashing bugs. I'll loose my turn in the conga line if not. Or, just do another midfield takeoff...
My TnGs are usually easy on my plane. Nose wheel doesn't touch usually. Sometimes I don't have full power up until back in the air. Prop is already full forward, mix goes rich before the engine gets pushed up. Flaps wherever they are, maybe up, maybe half or down.
However, I've been part of some controlled crashes that we called TnGs, which were really saved bounces... But that's just a bad landing followed by a quick takeoff.
My theory on TnGs says that it is easy on the plane and pilot if one is already good at landing. No break use, little taxiing heating up the engine with no good cooling (my opinion), less lead in the plugs, no sweaty nether regions, no battling pilots that park all wonky in the runup pad (PoAers excluded, of course (and it's very rare at my apt, just that one day)).
Much better for me to do TnGs when everyone else is out smashing bugs. I'll loose my turn in the conga line if not. Or, just do another midfield takeoff...
My TnGs are usually easy on my plane. Nose wheel doesn't touch usually. Sometimes I don't have full power up until back in the air. Prop is already full forward, mix goes rich before the engine gets pushed up. Flaps wherever they are, maybe up, maybe half or down.
However, I've been part of some controlled crashes that we called TnGs, which were really saved bounces... But that's just a bad landing followed by a quick takeoff.
My theory on TnGs says that it is easy on the plane and pilot if one is already good at landing. No break use, little taxiing heating up the engine with no good cooling (my opinion), less lead in the plugs, no sweaty nether regions, no battling pilots that park all wonky in the runup pad (PoAers excluded, of course (and it's very rare at my apt, just that one day)).
Hmmm....not sure I agree on that. We NEVER touch the brakes on a touch & go. The engine doesn't spend a lot of time at idle, either, fouling plugs, low airflow, etc. A smooth touchdown, followed by a smooth application of power (just like would happen on a taxi back takeoff) and you're gone again. That's assuming you have a runway that allows for it. The little Cherokee needs about 600' and never operates on anything less than 3,000' (usually 4,000-5,500), so there's a pretty good margin of safety. In 41years of flying and 39 years of instructing neither I nor any student has ever had a problem executing a touch & go. I guess it's how you learn.
On one flight, I was offered that intersection on the Sunday after Thanksgiving, but I opted for the full length. It felt like it took FOREVER to get to the front of the line. After that, I started using GEU for my visits. (I later found out that the latter is actually more convenient for my relatives.)
Hacker
Pre-takeoff checklist
Hopefully the lesson he learned wasn't "never perform a midfield takeoff".
OkieFlyer
En-Route
I do see the irony, but keep in mind I can still carry 2, 3, 4 hours of reserve fuel without topping off in most cases. I think that is lots of safety margin by nearly anyone's standards. Conversely, I doubt many would consider that 1500' affords a student pilot lots of margin, or much margin at all. As I said before, I have nothing against a shortened takeoff, provided that it leaves you some room for error.
In the case I described in the OP, they left themselves about 20 feet of daylight between them and the berm and trees at the end of the runway. If I knew my students or instructors were doing that, I wouldn't be pleased.
Again, just my opinion.
Sinistar
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Brad
Plus on a busy day if they give you 10L and you land/exit short you're probably stuck waiting for the 10 planes to pulling out of private hangars, Elliot and Thunderbird all coming your way on taxiway Alpha. That might be a long wait. I was on Romeo lane for a few months. It exits right onto the taxiway and then onto 10L. There was like 8 planes lined up on Alpha ready to go. That was no fun getting out of there that day. Being down on a end can suck.
No, it was understand what additional risk you are accepting when you do.
idahoflier
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idahoflier
Wow. Really surprised at the anti-T&G comments. My view is T&G's are more safe than full stop landings and easier on the equipment...
Lindberg
Final Approach
What if you have a fuel leak or a cap comes loose? Or maybe IMC blows in and you have to divert... None of us takes the most conservative action every time. We all make judgments, and some other pilot's call isn't wrong just because it's different from ours. But "I'm going to use all the runway all the time," is just as silly as "I'm going to fill the tanks every time."
SoCal RV Flyer
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Depends on the aircraft, to some degree. I've got a simple paddle switch that I need to hold for about 7-8 seconds to fully deploy or retract the flaps, and electric trim that I need to fiddle with as well. I guess to simplify things I could do t&g's with no flaps, or full flaps (the RV climbs just fine "dirty") and fly the approach with no trim, but in the landing phase I think a simple, stabilized approach with minimal workload is best. I'd rather concentrate on the airspeed and pitch angle (and not be thinking about "cleanup" when the mains touch), do a nice (hopefully!) greaser, and taxi back.
OkieFlyer
En-Route
Yep, and if you paid attention, I haven't advocated using all the runway all the time, or even practiced it. Don't take it to the extreme. I do advocate being at least a little conservative where practical, however. Particularly when talking about student pilots. This person cleared the trees by less than a wingspan in one of the flattest states in the Union. I'd say that's not even close to conservative. If it wasn't a student, I'd be shocked, and I'd also be shocked if the Dean if the flight program would approve. However, all is well in this case, and I was just curious what others thought about it. There's no hard rule or right answer here. As one of the folks that doesn't take the illusion of safety to the extreme, and the resident POA redneck, if it strikes me as dumb, it probably is. Hold my beer.
Each to his own - I'm not much into eliminating risk, if it interferes with living, so the risk is necessary from my point of view. But do acknowledge we all have diffrent tolerance thresholds. T&Gs are fun, and I might need to do one under duress someday. Acceptible risk from my perspective. Can't imagine needing to roll a 182, except to recover from an upset, perhaps. Have to time the roll rate with a calendar!
The momentum you have at the time that you push in the throttle during a touch and go means that you won't need as much runway, compared to a midfield takeoff initiated from the same position on the runway.
woodchucker
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Each to their own obviously. You are PIC and you make the calls as such. To be honest, after first getting my ticket I exclusively flew XC and did not practice anything (maybe one T&G and one steep turn) by myself for a year. Then I was priced out of flying for two years. Now I’m back with a club, flying is affordable-ish, and I’m trying to fly on average every other week just for the sake of loving to fly. And I do T&Gs exclusively at the training airport. I don’t like stop and go ops, and haven’t done that since my primary training. If I’m coming to a stop I will exit the runway and taxi back, which I guess is my personal limitation and have not ever needed to do.
T&Gs are essentially go arounds from a lower altitude. Yes, higher risk, but within the capabilities of a pilot. I’m a low-time pilot and I feel that a T&G is something that is good practice in general. I don’t get the comment on how it’s harder on the aircraft. That sounds like bull to me.
Finally, a question. How many of you practice stalls? Or other primary training maneuvers? I have never stalled an aircraft at altitude without a CFI on board. Those of you not practicing T&Gs, are you practicing stalls and other primary maneuvers on your own?
I’m genuinely curious.
T&Gs are essentially go arounds from a lower altitude. Yes, higher risk, but within the capabilities of a pilot. I’m a low-time pilot and I feel that a T&G is something that is good practice in general. I don’t get the comment on how it’s harder on the aircraft. That sounds like bull to me.
Finally, a question. How many of you practice stalls? Or other primary training maneuvers? I have never stalled an aircraft at altitude without a CFI on board. Those of you not practicing T&Gs, are you practicing stalls and other primary maneuvers on your own?
I’m genuinely curious.
flyingcheesehead
Touchdown! Greaser!
It's a matter of degree. The margins here sound like they were very thin. That's akin to going on a 5-minute flight with 35 minutes (or less!) of fuel. You might not unport on a bumpy day... But you might, too. We're not talking about skipping the first 1500 feet of a 5000-foot runway, we're talking about taking off with pretty close to the minimum amount of space necessary to not die IF EVERYTHING GOES RIGHT. That's dumb.
Lindberg
Final Approach
I've never flown a Warrior. Are you saying they can't safely use a 1500' runway? That seems odd for a trainer.
At a weight roughly corresponding to two people and a density altitude of 3000', a warrior takes about 1000' ground roll with the short field flaps in.
Get it up to gross weight, higher DAs, grass runways, etc... you can easily exceed 1500'
Skyhawks aren't much different. I used to go into a short 1700 strip for Navion flyins with the club Skyhawk. It would take a good short field technique to get out of there in the 172. The Navions were all off at midfield
Kansas Flyer
Pre-takeoff checklist
I practice things like stalls, steep turns, and slow flight pretty regularly. I do them as much for fun as practice though.
timwinters
Ejection Handle Pulled
yep!
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Bro do you even lift
I practice those every two years. I try to time it during my flight review.
Zeldman
Touchdown! Greaser!
Most of the runways (if I am using a runway) I use in Alaska are shorter than any mid-field departure. Plus there is no safety corridor after the runway.
4000 foot paved runway.?? Which part of it do you want me to use..??
4000 foot paved runway.?? Which part of it do you want me to use..??