MEI Question

Lance F

Lance F

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Lance F
You've entered a normal left traffic downwind leg in your light twin. The left engine fails. Do you a) continue the pattern and make left turns toward the dead engine to land or b) climb (or maintain altitude) and make the necessary number of only right turns to fly a right traffic pattern?
 
What do you feel would be most safe?

" § 91.3 Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command. In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency. "
 
For me, it would depend upon my energy state, other traffic considerations, and the particular plane. If I've got excess energy and nobody in my way I'm going to continue and land. In that condition there is no need to have full power on the good side and thus my margins are bigger. Anything else is situational, however I don't ever see myself choosing to come back and fly a right hand pattern.

Eggman
 
What set of conditions has to come together to make turning into the dead engine a dangerous thing? None of the twins I've flown have any control issues until well below any operational airspeed, and slowing that much should only occur after you've closed the throttle on the good engine to land.
 
Yeah, it's not like any turn into the dead engine means instant death. You just need to be cognizant of the situation, and as James mentioned, I likely won't be carrying a huge amount of power on the good side anyway. I don't see a compelling reason to exit the pattern and come in the other way in most situations.
 
Lance F said:
You've entered a normal left traffic downwind leg in your light twin. The left engine fails. Do you a) continue the pattern and make left turns toward the dead engine to land or b) climb (or maintain altitude) and make the necessary number of only right turns to fly a right traffic pattern?
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If I'm in my plane on the left downwind when it quits, I'd continue the left traffic and land. As @James_Dean mentioned, I'd have excess energy.

If I just departed at a low altitude and the left side quits and ATC tells me to make left traffic (like the 310 in California that crashed on the Freeway), I'd decline and when I got to a comfortable altitude after climbing straight ahead a bit, I'd make the turns into the good engine.
 
If your entering the pattern ,you should have plenty of energy to continue with the landing.
 
Reduce power on the good engine as needed during the turns and add it back if needed on the straightaways.
 
As I was taught, stay above blue line until short final and runway is made. If you have enough energy, turns into the dead engine should be nothing. Although probably wouldn't hurt to keep them shallow and wide, no use yanking and banking when you are already having a problem.
 
Sometimes, whenever this comes up, I wonder if people are just bored at home and want to start a dumpster fire for fun.
 
how about fly the pattern tight enough so the good engine is at zero thrust and use the decent to provide energy to maintain speed? why do people insist on dragging twins in with power flying a boeing pattern?

bob
 
unsafervguy said:
how about fly the pattern tight enough so the good engine is at zero thrust and use the decent to provide energy to maintain speed? why do people insist on dragging twins in with power flying a boeing pattern?

bob
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Depending on the twin, that may create a fairly steep descent. Even with one good engine, you only have enough thrust to make it to the scene of the crash :eek:
 
unsafervguy said:
how about fly the pattern tight enough so the good engine is at zero thrust and use the decent to provide energy to maintain speed? why do people insist on dragging twins in with power flying a boeing pattern?

bob
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Here. Loss of half your power is an emergency. I might not fly a pattern at all but rather head straight for a landable piece of runway. It's not as dire as losing it in a single, perhaps, but just because you still have one turning doesn't mean you have to continue on a cross-country-sized pattern.
 
Are you asking about having problems making a turn because the engine is going to tend to prevent you from turning?

You're on downwind and there's an airport under you. I'm not seeing why there's anything to worry about. If power is keeping you from turning, pull the power and land.
 
gasfiltered said:
Sometimes, whenever this comes up, I wonder if people are just bored at home and want to start a dumpster fire for fun.
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Anyone on this forum that knows me or my posts also knows I do not do this. I am a cfi and cfii but not an mei. My son is doing his multi add on to his commercial certificate in a Dutchess right now. This question came up in his training, and he asked me about it. I was looking for real answers from real mei's to help him with his discussions with his instructor.
 
Lance F said:
Anyone on this forum that knows me or my posts also knows I do not do this. I am a cfi and cfii but not an mei. My son is doing his multi add on to his commercial certificate in a Dutchess right now. This question came up in his training, and he asked me about it. I was looking for real answers from real mei's to help him with his discussions with his instructor.
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Lance, for what it’s worth, I know you (my fellow Twin Cessna Gaston’s adventurer) and I answered as an MEI. I’m certain there may be differing opinions.
 
Most of the responses have been exactly what I was looking for and much appreciated. My initial thinking leaned towards my answer b. These comments made me think through it further. The quoted post just irked me a tad. To paraphrase Nixon, "I am not a troll."
 
I'm not a MEI but I thought it was an interesting question. I have seen many questions on POA that seemed like they were asked just to stir things up. This was not one.
 
Here's why my initial thinking went the other way. If I may quote FAA-P-8740-66 “Flying Light Twins Safely" p.3: “.Tests have shown that Vmc may increase more than 3 knots for each degree of bank less than 5 degrees. Loss of directional control may be experienced at speeds almost 20 knots above published Vmc when the wings are held level.”
And therefore I figured that banking towards the dead engine to fly a left pattern would require a bank angle of at least 10 degrees to make the turns within the same county and could lead to loss of directional control at speeds maybe exceeding 40 knots above publish Vmc. In a Dutchess that would be way above blue line.
 
Lance F said:
Here's why my initial thinking went the other way. If I may quote FAA-P-8740-66 “Flying Light Twins Safely" p.3: “.Tests have shown that Vmc may increase more than 3 knots for each degree of bank less than 5 degrees. Loss of directional control may be experienced at speeds almost 20 knots above published Vmc when the wings are held level.”
And therefore I figured that banking towards the dead engine to fly a left pattern would require a bank angle of at least 10 degrees to make the turns within the same county and could lead to loss of directional control at speeds maybe exceeding 40 knots above publish Vmc. In a Dutchess that would be way above blue line.
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I would say that a control demo in the airplane might be appropriate to determine what the actual increase is before deciding it's too close to blue line.

Additionally, the bank angle referenced is more about the yaw component...if you're flying straight ahead with 5 degrees of bank into the good engine and make a turn with the inclinometer ball in the same place (1/2 ball out of center or whatever...better yet with a yaw string) it doesn't increase Vmc.
 
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Lance F said:
Anyone on this forum that knows me or my posts also knows I do not do this. I am a cfi and cfii but not an mei. My son is doing his multi add on to his commercial certificate in a Dutchess right now. This question came up in his training, and he asked me about it. I was looking for real answers from real mei's to help him with his discussions with his instructor.
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I'm sorry if I came across as personally insulting, not my intent. This is one of those downwind turn or cruising on the step things which have been re-hashed many times on many forums and there will never be a consensus. I was wrong to be flippant, it wasn't towards you personally. I teach in a Duchess. At low power settings, such as in the pattern, there is absolutely nothing that prevents one from making reasonable turns in any direction OEI. The danger comes from suddenly introducing a lot of power, the plane should be banked into the good engine with good speed first; it's why we teach OEI go-around decisions to be made as high and fast as possible. FWIW, I do OEI left patterns multiple times a day.
 
If you maintain an airspeed at or above your VMC and Stall Speed, no problems to make turns into the dead engine's side.
 
That’s all I was looking for. Makes sense.
 
Fly straight til adjacent the numbers then dead stick it from there if you are worried about unequal thrust.
 
I make my guys do steep turns into the dead engine at altitude so they know that a) it's possible and b) how it handles. I don't ever expect them to do this in a real emergency though.

Update: I would even challenge you to think about why the engine failed. Did you just take off for pattern work and the left engine died? Maybe line-service put in the wrong fuel and your right engine is going to fail soon too.... might want to get back on the ground ASAP then. Have you already been flying for an hour? It's unlikely the problem will effect both engines if you've been in the air for some time so maybe you do want to take your time and make right traffic... Just my thoughts.
 
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rt4388 said:
I make my guys do steep turns into the dead engine at altitude so they know that a) it's possible and b) how it handles. I don't ever expect them to do this in a real emergency though.
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That's a great demo item. What speed do you do the steeps at?
 
schmookeeg said:
That's a great demo item. What speed do you do the steeps at?
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It really just depends on what I can get given my density altitude. I would recommend you do it at full power to get the full affects of asymmetrical thrust; otherwise, they don't get a real feel for it. So pitch for altitude and full power. Anything less than blue line and I would be nervous though.
 
Extend the downwind, try to gain some altitude an maneuver to give yourself a nice long final.
 
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