Mayday STOL drag races - Wayne NE

Salty said:
How does being afraid to stall lead to an accident?
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Prevents expansion of your flying envelope. So when you find yourself in one of those corners, the reaction and results can be unexpected for the pilot.
 
Dana said:
... A C-140 isn't the kind of plane you'd fly in an event like that...
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Yea see, that's where I disagree. Why can't we have REAL airplanes involved outside of some special built machine that can't do anything except this? I went to the High Sierra Fly-in a few years back which is really the birthplace of this STOL-DRAG thing and there was a guy with a Sherpa who raced with his whole family onboard including the dog. It was supposed to be FUN but, like I said, it has morphed into some kind of extreme sport so, not so much fun for me anymore.
 
The 140 in the news picture looks a little bit like mine. Mine is an orange and white ragwing as was the one in the photograph. I have always wanted to attend the Valdez event and thought I would like to compete. I am not at all familiar with what a STOL “Drag” really is. This kind of cools off my desire to compete or even attend a STOL event.
 
MBDiagMan said:
...I am not at all familiar with what a STOL “Drag” really is...
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It's a competition that was dreamed up out there on the lakebed by Kevin Quinn and some of the other Flying Cowboys a few years back. Two planes line up, get the GO signal then fly straight down to the other end (not sure the distance, maybe half a mile or so) where they have to land past the marker, come to a full stop, turn around then race back to the start. The first one who stops (regardless of distance) wins. It was pretty cool out there on Dead Cow Lake, despite the dust, but I think it was pretty much a dud at Reno where the spectators are a quarter of a mile away.
 
Okay, I’ve seen the video now. The event occurs at 12:20 or so. I couldn’t see well enough to see if he had full flaps. It would seem that in such an event, full flaps would be a given, but for a 140, the flaps are almost all drag and no lift. Makes me wonder if he was using them. I rarely use flaps on my 140. I’m more comfortable slipping it if need be.

Without looking at it again, when I saw it, it appeared to lose lift on one wing after it was on final with the base turn complete, IF that was the case, why did he lose lift on only one wing?
 
MBDiagMan said:
... why did he lose lift on only one wing?
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I think there was a crosswind, judging by the flags on the barrier rope, so my theory is that they were approaching in a slip to keep nose alignment with the strip meaning right aileron was down increasing AOA of right wing so it let go first and then he just instinctively put in more left aileron which made it worse. Most of us would have probably done the same thing, no time to even think about it.
 
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Contributing factor to wing drop could be that he flew into the wing vortex of the Zenith flying in front of him. He was relatively close to the slow flying Zenith, and if he was already in slow flight regime, with high angle of attack, the compounding effect of wing vortex could cause a wing to drop.
 
I watched Gryder on this, this guy was a freshly minted private pilot hanging on the edge in a competition with a wife and young kids at home. We need to be smarter as pilots. RIP
 
skyking3286 said:
A Cessna 140 just isn't going to be a good plane for this.
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Last winter my Dad and I went over to Lakeland for the off-season Sun and Fun and watched the STOL competition. The most fun to watch were the one's that were actually not "the good plane" for the competition. The Comanche was in particular a crowd favorite.


 
Dana said:
They do have their accidents, but for the most part the low speeds and altitudes limit the injuries.
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I look at it differently. IMO, the most dangerous place for an airplane is low and slow. That's where crashes happen. And these events are about flying right at the edge in a low and slow environment with no guarantees that the pilot(s) are proficient to do the right thing (e.g. pick up a wing with rudder, instinctively) in that environment. IMO, these events, combined with folks who may not be at the top of their game, are very risky. Reno has a qualifying program for both the planes and the pilots. Maybe the Drag STOL folks need that too.
 
First, all due respect to the pilot's family and friends. I never met him but did converse with him regarding his airplane. My thoughts at 12:13 through 12:16 of the video is that the airplane was wings level, nose high, slow and sinking. It's easy to see. He had entered a bad place and the only way out was to lower the nose and add power immediately.
 
Pugs said:
You could say that about all competition but that same competitive environment often inspires us and trains us to perform better than we would simply going out and doing whatever the activity is alone.
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Quite true, I agree, but the STOL competitions have the potential for much greater consequences than various other things. It seems those groupies manage to crash their airplanes doing some real retarded things, take Mike Patey for example. I dunno, but for me, operating on the back end of the power curve with such razor thin margins for error is just stupid.

I’ve seen a good bit of it first hand from some neck beards that base here. I saw one of them doing stalls in the pattern as well as a bunch of idiotic things at the airport. I understand that it’s ego boosting to bring the ruler out in front of your friends, but that doesn’t negate the need for common sense or a basic level of safety.
 
Silvaire said:
I think there was a crosswind, judging by the flags on the barrier rope, so my theory is that they were approaching in a slip to keep nose alignment with the strip meaning right aileron was down increasing AOA of right wing so it let go first and then he just instinctively put in more left aileron which made it worse. Most of us would have probably done the same thing, no time to even think about it.
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A stall while slipping does not usually induce a spin as there is no yawing moment, or yaw-roll couple during a slip. He was crabbed to the left, on the edge of a stall, and I speculate applied right rudder to align the longitudinal axis with the landing area. In other words, he was in the transition from a crabbing approach to a slipping approach, which involves a momentary skid.
 
PaulS said:
I watched Gryder on this, this guy was a freshly minted private pilot hanging on the edge in a competition with a wife and young kids at home. We need to be smarter as pilots. RIP
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Stop watching and quoting this moron. Tom was not "freshly minted".
 
RyanB said:
Quite true, I agree, but the STOL competitions have the potential for much greater consequences than various other things. It seems those groupies manage to crash their airplanes doing some real retarded things, take Mike Patey for example. I dunno, but for me, operating on the back end of the power curve with such razor thin margins for error is just stupid.

I’ve seen a good bit of it first hand from some neck beards that base here. I saw one of them doing stalls in the pattern as well as a bunch of idiotic things at the airport. I understand that it’s ego boosting to bring the ruler out in front of your friends, but that doesn’t negate the need for common sense or a basic level of safety.
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Sounds like you shouldn’t participate.
 
dmspilot said:
A stall while slipping does not usually induce a spin...
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What I was saying was that if he were in a slip then he had aileron input so the wing with the down aileron is going to stall first and the typical muscle reaction when a wing drops is to crank in more aileron which would worsen the situation. The Tik-Tok quality cellphone video is not clear enough to draw any concrete conclusions though so these are just guesses.
 
Silvaire said:
What I was saying was that if he were in a slip then he had aileron input so the wing with the down aileron is going to stall first and the typical muscle reaction when a wing drops is to crank in more aileron which would worsen the situation. The Tik-Tok quality cellphone video is not clear enough to draw any concrete conclusions though so these are just guesses.
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I had a random thought / question. If he had done a falling leaf stall into the ground, would that be survivable? Anyone know the vertical speed of a falling leaf stall with some power in? (or power off even) I would assume it would have to be better chances than nose first, at least the nose would be up.

Silly thought I know, I mean who would do a falling leaf into the ground intentionally and you wouldn't have much time to think to try it.
 
My C-150L had a STOL kit with fences, aileron seals, flap gap seals and drooped wing tips. It would approach with zero airspeed showing on the indicator and land in the length of the runway numbers. No unmodified 150 (or 140) would be able to fly that slow and recover from a stall on final.

I knew that airplane well and practiced every flight. I never even came close to losing control and would never attempt such slow flight in a stock airplane...
 
exncsurfer said:
I had a random thought / question. If he had done a falling leaf stall into the ground, would that be survivable? Anyone know the vertical speed of a falling leaf stall with some power in? (or power off even) I would assume it would have to be better chances than nose first, at least the nose would be up.

Silly thought I know, I mean who would do a falling leaf into the ground intentionally and you wouldn't have much time to think to try it.
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Rudder might have saved him. I guess he was an experienced pilot, so who knows what happened.
 
exncsurfer said:
I had a random thought / question. If he had done a falling leaf stall into the ground, would that be survivable? Anyone know the vertical speed of a falling leaf stall with some power in? (or power off even) I would assume it would have to be better chances than nose first, at least the nose would be up.

Silly thought I know, I mean who would do a falling leaf into the ground intentionally and you wouldn't have much time to think to try it.
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I've done falling leaf stalls in a J3 Clipped Wing Cub and a DA40. It would definitely hurt in the cub, but in the DA40, power off full flaps it's supposed to be a survivable maneuver. Airspeed was sub-40, but I don't recall what vertical speed was - it felt more like gliding IIRC.
 
Then there's the AN-2, whose pilot's handbook says, "If the engine quits in instrument conditions or at night, the pilot should pull the control column full aft and keep the wings level. The leading-edge slats will snap out at about 64 km/h (40 mph) and when the airplane slows to a forward speed of about 40 km/h (25 mph), the airplane will sink at about a parachute descent rate until the aircraft hits the ground."
 
Here’s a good video from Juan Browne - witnessed the accident.

 
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