Marvel Mystery Oil

According to Wikipedia, which is NEVER wrong:

Petroleum Distillates (Hydrotreated Heavy Naphthenic) also known as mineral oil, 60-100%[2]

Petroleum Distillates (Stoddard Solvent) also known as white spirit, 10-30%[2]

Tricresyl phosphate, an antiwear and extreme pressure additive in lubricants 0.1-1.0%[2]

Ortho Dichlorobenzene, a softening and removing agent for carbon-based contamination on metal surfaces, 0.1-1.0%[2]

Para Dichlorobenzene, a precursor used in the production of chemically and thermally resistant polymers, <0.1%[2]

The Wiki article mentions the use in airplanes, and mentions that one sample in 2003 tested for 1% lard.

Mmmmm, lard!
 
FWIW, I was told by a well known aviation oil expert that MMO used to be good stuff but when the formula changed to include chlorinated agents it made it less useful in airplane engines. Clorinated agents mix with water and become hydrochloric acids, which destroy seals and hoses and promotes corrosion. When MMO was just light base stock mineral oil with Varsol added it had some benefit, like adding it to crankcase oil to treat morning sickness or in fuel as a top oil. The biggest benefit I ever noticed was that the red dye bonds to water so sumping fuel had a bright red water indicator.

Seafoam is primarily the same oil base but adds isopropyl alcohol so when guys say it helps their engines they probably had a little water in the carb. A little isopropyl added to fuel occasionally isn't a bad plan, but a little jug of isopropyl is a lot cheaper than Seafoam!
 
Sundance said:
Back in the old 80/87 red days their was enough lube in the fuel to effectively lube the hottest part of the engine the exhaust valve, and guides, the newer fuels green, Blue just don’t carry that lubrication offered in the 80/87. I do run the smaller Continentals, over 70 years old, run non detergent oil,change oil more frequently than most 15 hours, use 8 ounces of Marvel to 10 gal of fuel 100/115 don’t use it in my oil, just for upper lube. TBO is around 1800 hrs. I have done 1 tear down and it just didn’t need it. Waisted a lot of money. It may be skuttle butt,but I think it works. Prof is in the pudding.
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Eh? The above is a bunch of confusion. I don't know what "lube" you'd be speaking about other than lead and there's 4 times more lead in 100LL than 80/87 ever had. It's only LL compared to the old 100/130 (never heard of 100/115).

That being said, some tout MMO being a light solvent (which is all it is) can help deal with too much lead (although TCP/TPP works much better).
 
Found a note from Ed Kollins (the Camguard guy) on MMO, which aligns with my various searches through time looking at MMO MSDS disclosures:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...cs/2306933/re-mmo-opinions-wanted#Post2306933

TCP is a good EP additive but a terrible anti-wear agent. It is not active at the pressures and temperatures in engines. Replacing ZDDP with TCP in a new flat tappet engine will cause catastrophic failure in a few hundred miles.

I watched the lobes come off my Honda engine, using TCP as the phosphorus source, in my test cell at Exxon Research.

We analyized MMO multiple times at Exxon and always seemed to have a different composition. It always had 65-69% baseoil, 26-29% mineral spirits, red dye and wintergreeen fragrance but at different times it has had TCP, dichlorobenzene and 1-2% other solvents.

Ed​
 
chemgeek said:
I'm not aware of any controlled studies that show that there is any demonstrable benefit from adding MMO to your oil or fuel. There is lots of anecdata, but anecdotes are not data.
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No surprise there. And, the results of controlled studies by engine manufactures could be why none of them (aircraft, auto, motorcycle, marine, stationary) recommend jumping on the MMO bandwagon.

However, from anecdotal results we can conclude that, when used in moderation, MMO is not likely to damage your engine.
 
ElPaso Pilot said:
Found a note from Ed Kollins (the Camguard guy) on MMO, which aligns with my various searches through time looking at MMO MSDS disclosures:

https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/foru...cs/2306933/re-mmo-opinions-wanted#Post2306933

TCP is a good EP additive but a terrible anti-wear agent. It is not active at the pressures and temperatures in engines. Replacing ZDDP with TCP in a new flat tappet engine will cause catastrophic failure in a few hundred miles.

I watched the lobes come off my Honda engine, using TCP as the phosphorus source, in my test cell at Exxon Research.


Ed​
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Not arguing for or against MMO, but this quote is related to car engines. ZDDP was added to automotive motor oils as a way to replace some of the qualities that lead provided. During the period when lead came out of auto fuel, but much of the installed base of engines were designed for higher lead, ZDDP was critical. With 100ll, at least in theory, TCP helps eliminate lead fouling. I don't believe aviation oils have ZDDP in them?

There's a Porsche board, similar to this one. The longest thread on that board is the one arguing about which oil to use in your 911, which is a flat tappet, air cooled engine. Current automotive engines are not as dependent ZDDP and most mainline automotive oils have a lot less of it.
 
Sundance said:
..Proof is in the pudding.
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For entertainment value only.... It's actually "proof is in the putting". "Proof in the pudding" was a humorous twist by Bill Cosby for the 70's Jello Pudding commercials.

My value add for the day. :D
 
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NordicDave said:
For entertainment value only.... It's actually "proof is in the putting". "Proof in the pudding" was a humorous twist by Bill Cosby for the 70's Jello Pudding commercials.

My value add for the day. :D
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Not to be nit-picky or pedantic, but even that is a mis-statement of the older "The proof of the pudding is in the eating". In other words, you can really only know whether or not it's good (successful, whatever) after you've tried it.
 
I accept that aircraft oils work for aircraft cams, but why do they not work for automotive cams & vice versa? An enthusiast friend used aircraft oil in his air-cooled VW and promptly wrecked the cam!
 
Hang 4 said:
Not arguing for or against MMO, but this quote is related to car engines. ZDDP was added to automotive motor oils as a way to replace some of the qualities that lead provided. During the period when lead came out of auto fuel, but much of the installed base of engines were designed for higher lead, ZDDP was critical. With 100ll, at least in theory, TCP helps eliminate lead fouling. I don't believe aviation oils have ZDDP in them?

There's a Porsche board, similar to this one. The longest thread on that board is the one arguing about which oil to use in your 911, which is a flat tappet, air cooled engine. Current automotive engines are not as dependent ZDDP and most mainline automotive oils have a lot less of it.
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I was actually referring to MMO in the second part, which is applicable to our engines. The first part is about TCP.

We analyized MMO multiple times at Exxon and always seemed to have a different composition. It always had 65-69% baseoil, 26-29% mineral spirits, red dye and wintergreeen fragrance but at different times it has had TCP, dichlorobenzene and 1-2% other solvents.​

If you pull up the published MMO MSDS history over the years, the additive chemistry changes.

Hard to tell what the stuff does with a moving target and no scientific analysis. At least it continues to smell good every year.
 
DaleB said:
Not to be nit-picky or pedantic, but even that is a mis-statement of the older "The proof of the pudding is in the eating". In other words, you can really only know whether or not it's good (successful, whatever) after you've tried it.
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Love it, because arguing about this makes as much sense and MMO in an airplane.
 
Hang 4 said:
Not arguing for or against MMO, but this quote is related to car engines. ZDDP was added to automotive motor oils as a way to replace some of the qualities that lead provided. During the period when lead came out of auto fuel, but much of the installed base of engines were designed for higher lead, ZDDP was critical. With 100ll, at least in theory, TCP helps eliminate lead fouling. I don't believe aviation oils have ZDDP in them?

There's a Porsche board, similar to this one. The longest thread on that board is the one arguing about which oil to use in your 911, which is a flat tappet, air cooled engine. Current automotive engines are not as dependent ZDDP and most mainline automotive oils have a lot less of it.
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This is the first time I’ve heard the claim that ZDDP was added to replace lead. How does something that was removed from fuel get replaced by something added to the oil and produce the same effects? I want to see facts, not opinion.

nrpetersen said:
I accept that aircraft oils work for aircraft cams, but why do they not work for automotive cams & vice versa? An enthusiast friend used aircraft oil in his air-cooled VW and promptly wrecked the cam!
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Interesting. I recall reading about a test done by a guy trying to eliminate the myth that ZDDP was needed in car engines, where he ran a 350 Chevy on aircraft oil (I think it was 50wt Shell) for an extended period of time and did oil analysis. The end result seemed to be that it didn’t matter.

Also, not directly related but we’ve done some very extensive oil consumption tests where I work that required special oil and fuel for it to work. As far as I know, there was no anti wear additives in the oil and nothing bad happened.
 
Yep, MML in the fuel tank, engine oil, and a little to slick back my hair every morning. I'm pretty sure that is what the big boys use in their jets too. I had a weed wacker last 15 years with a swig of MML in the fuel can. The ladies love the scent too.
 
mondtster said:
This is the first time I’ve heard the claim that ZDDP was added to replace lead. How does something that was removed from fuel get replaced by something added to the oil and produce the same effects? I want to see facts, not opinion.
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You're right, it's been a while since I waded through the 200 pages about ZDDP since I sold my 911. The driver for elimination of both was the same, environmental. Lead was just plain bad and ZDDP tended to clog catalytic converters. But the need for ZDDP in oils for cars has dropped with the elimination of flat tappet motors. That's why folks with older cars look for High ZDDP oils. Which has nothing to do with MMO :).
 
Hang 4 said:
You're right, it's been a while since I waded through the 200 pages about ZDDP since I sold my 911. The driver for elimination of both was the same, environmental. Lead was just plain bad and ZDDP tended to clog catalytic converters. But the need for ZDDP in oils for cars has dropped with the elimination of flat tappet motors. That's why folks with older cars look for High ZDDP oils. Which has nothing to do with MMO :).
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That sounds a bit more reasonable.

I’m not going to get into a debate here about the need or lack thereof for ZDDP, but flat tappet engines have not been eliminated and they run fine on modern oils.
 
More meant Overhead Cam (which can still be flat tappet) vs case cam like our AC engines. Most case cam engines have gone to roller tappets. Less friction on the valve tops, which, along with cams was what the older car folks got excited about. Went back to the Porsche Website I used to haunt and the one thread had 2,000 posts on the topic.

I don't really care, but it's amazing how excited people get about such things and the signal to noise ratio gets really high.

If anyone is really bored http://forums.pelicanparts.com/pors...r-oil-thread-why-we-hate-cj4-sm-oils-108.html
 
Hang 4 said:
More meant Overhead Cam (which can still be flat tappet) vs case cam like our AC engines. Most case cam engines have gone to roller tappets. Less friction on the valve tops, which, along with cams was what the older car folks got excited about. Went back to the Porsche Website I used to haunt and the one thread had 2,000 posts on the topic.

I don't really care, but it's amazing how excited people get about such things and the signal to noise ratio gets really high.

If anyone is really bored http://forums.pelicanparts.com/pors...r-oil-thread-why-we-hate-cj4-sm-oils-108.html
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There are still brand new flat tappet pushrod engines being built too. But yes, they are the exception rather than the norm these days. I personally believe that much like ethanol, the lack of ZDDP in oil gets blamed for causing far more problems than it should. By the way, roller cams aren't a 100% solution to flat tappet problems either.

Thanks for the link, I might peruse it for a while.
 
If you put a little bit of MMO on a rag it does an amazing job of cleaning your tools but, come to think of it, so does ATF.
 
I’ve only used it in my fuel, 8oz to 10 gal of 100/130, not only will it clean and keep you valve upper cylinder lubed, but it also keeps that fuel selector and carb from corrosion I run small Continentals, 75-12 never used it in my oil, always run non detergent oil, even tho I have a filter mod I still change oil every 20 hours. And pull the original screen, even tho having the filter mod claims you don’t need to pull it, example I had a brass spark plug insert, pin shear, I pulled the cylinder and took it to a cylinder shop, had a larger pin installed, the owner commented on how clean my valves were at over 500 hrs, never honed the cylinder when I reinstalled it just prelubed, 76/80 My oil changes are probably over kill, but my 75-12 is a very nice running engine, mid time TBO 1800 hours.
 
Yep, just checked the MSDS and MMO has TCP in it. Never knew that. I 'd be a little more careful about handling the stuff. TCP is nasty stuff.
 
mondtster said:
By the way, roller cams aren't a 100% solution to flat tappet problems either.
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I don’t think there is enough roller tappet engines that have been in the field for any length of time to know yet?
 
teejayevans said:
I don’t think there is enough roller tappet engines that have been in the field for any length of time to know yet?
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Roller tappets have been in both auto and aircraft applications for decades now. They have their own problems and are not the absolute solution many light aircraft guys like to believe they are.
 
cfd408 said:
This may sound like an odd question.. does anyone actually use this in their aircraft? I was talking with an owner of a '74 Beech C23 (180hp Lycoming) in Texas.. says he adds it to his fuel regularly and to oil at oil change every 50hrs.
I'm very hesitant if not skeptical.. Any thoughts on this?
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All I can say is that I had a leaking exhaust valve. Started using MMO, no more leaky valve. Use as directed!
 
I'm always amazed at how many people admit to using an illegal substance on a public forum! When I use it... I mean if I used it, I would look both ways and then pour it in quickly!

BTW, go to an antique aircraft fly-in and stand near a plane with a radial engine... funny how it smells a lot like MMO!
 
Tom-D said:
Do you have a valid reference for any of that ??
My brain-e-ack Daughter designs and builds Spectrographic analyzers, I sent her a specimen of MMO, and asked her to tell me what it was.
After some back and forth about are you real, she said this.
It is a light distillate, probably some thing like diesel fuel, with oil of winter green to kill the oder, and a red dye.
In theory, as a heavier oil it will raise the BTU content of gas, (an insignificant amount) the oil of winter green is a good penetrant in its self, but in this amount it will have no effect. Red dye? well it looks pretty.

As for my opinion, if it makes you feel good use it.
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I was curious about MMO when I first got the Sonerai. The MSDS says its active ingredients are Hydrotreated Napthenic distillate, Stoddard Solvent, benzenes and phosphates. It also says its odor is "wintergreen". I took that to mean it has wintergreen oil added for odor.

I used it a couple of times as a fuel additive (followed directions on the side of the bottle). But, stopped after a couple of tank fulls. Haven't noticed any difference.
 
I’ve heard it can help you out in the bedroom. Truly a marvel!
 
wilkersk said:
I was curious about MMO when I first got the Sonerai. The MSDS says its active ingredients are Hydrotreated Napthenic distillate, Stoddard Solvent, benzenes and phosphates. It also says its odor is "wintergreen". I took that to mean it has wintergreen oil added for odor.

I used it a couple of times as a fuel additive (followed directions on the side of the bottle). But, stopped after a couple of tank fulls. Haven't noticed any difference.
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Lowflynjack said:
I'm always amazed at how many people admit to using an illegal substance on
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Lowflynjack said:
I'm always amazed at how many people admit to using an illegal substance on a public forum! When I use it... I mean if I used it, I would look both ways and then pour it in quickly!

BTW, go to an antique aircraft fly-in and stand near a plane with a radial engine... funny how it smells a lot like MMO!
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I dont recall admitting to anything illegal. Hahahaha....hope your not an attorney !!
 
Lowflynjack said:
It is not an approved substance to add to fuel for an airplane. You can not use it in a certified aircraft.
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Do you have a reference on that? In my experience, just because an additive isn't FAA approved doesn't mean it's illegal to use. For example, on the oil side, Camguard is not FAA approved but used quite widely. At best you might void a warranty, but don't know where a violation would pop up if you used MMO in your oil or fuel, however, FWIW I would never recommend MMO in an aircraft fuel system.
 
Here is the current MSDS as published on the MMO website:
https://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/media/1256/marvel-mystery-oil.pdf

MMO was invented in 1923 by Mr. Marvel who also invented the Marvel carburetor. MMO was designed to prevent clogging of the Marvel carb's jets. Back in the 1920's with gasoline, oil, standards, specifications, handling, and technology as it was, perhaps MMO had a place in the gas tank, or perhaps Mr. Marvel was simply a marketing genius. I lean toward both.

At one time MMO was owned by TurtleWax, but I'm not sure now.
 
Plus the formula for MMO has changed over the years. Problem solved World War I is different from the problems we have today. It’s also a different product.
 
Seems the biggest mystery is whether MMO actually does anything for aircraft engines. Flying your aircraft regularly and avoiding long periods of down time are the best known practices for keep your aircraft's fuel and oil system healthy and also keeping internal engine corrosion from harming your engine. Adding things to your oil/fuel not reccommended by the manufacturer could put your warranty at risk and perhaps even your life.
 
Brad Smith said:
Seems the biggest mystery is whether MMO actually does anything for aircraft engines. Flying your aircraft regularly and avoiding long periods of down time are the best known practices for keep your aircraft's fuel and oil system healthy and also keeping internal engine corrosion from harming your engine. Adding things to your oil/fuel not reccommended by the manufacturer could put your warranty at risk and perhaps even your life.
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I have a customer puts 4 oz of 50 to 1 in the at each tank.

he has 3100 hours on the 0-300- (never overhauled) last compression was mid 70s.
 
I read that there have been many variations of MMO over the years. The latest one seems to be a solvent that might free up a sticky valve. I put some in my old car (see pix) and got rid of tappet noise in 50 miles.
 
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